S
SpoonJuly
Guest
Some believe and teach that Revelation 4:1 is the "rapture of the church".
I believe it is not.
Prove me wrong.
I believe it is not.
Prove me wrong.
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GOD dose not ever take the saved before HE destroys the LOST, He all ways destroys the wicked first,WHEN HE comes he will destroy the wicked by the brightness of HIS coming. Even JESUS tell's us this
GOD bless as HE sees fit for you ALL.
S
SpoonJuly
Guest
"The church" is mentioned 7 times in Rev. 1:4 thru 3:22 and each time it is used to identify one of the seven churches in Asia.
The word "churches" (plural) 12 times also identifying these seven churches in Asia.
Why do some insist this is talking about all the saved as "the church"?
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Revelation 4:1 is the rapture of the Church if John is the only person part of the Church.
It only refers to John as he was caught up to heaven to write of the things that shall happen in the future.
And why would the Church be caught up to heaven to be shown of things in the future when what benefit was that to them for they are with Jesus, and they would not relate it to anybody for a benefit to them.
But John was caught up in the spirit to heaven and wrote of it that we read today so there is a benefit of it.
For there is no reason to be shown things of the future unless it is a benefit to people on earth.
Once the rapture happens they will not be communicating with the world anymore.
But John when he was caught up in the spirit to heaven related that to people.
Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
It is not rapture. It is apostle John tell the story about his vision and If we read the entire chapter not a single verse say about rapture. Rapture is the gathering all Christian with Jesus
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:5 and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
This is when God fights the world and puts down the wicked, and all the saints come back with God, so God would of had to get all the saints off the earth to come back with all the saints to fight the world.
And this cannot of happened in the past for the LORD is King over all the earth, and all the heathen that God spared will only acknowledge the LORD and no other god.
So God took the saved before He destroyed the wicked.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The saints in heaven with Jesus ask Him when He would avenge them, and He said when all the saints are with Him, then He will go against the wicked.
Which to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
So all the saints will be with Jesus when He comes back to destroy the wicked.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
All the saints are with Jesus before He fights the world and destroys the wicked.
Yep John was cought to heaven is not rapture of the church. It happen 2000 years ago. Rapture of not even
Happen yet.
John was temporary rapture, rapture of the church is permanent for some Christian, but for special Christian Will be back to earth and reign with Jesus for thausand years,
.
The rapture teaching in any way shape or form is not mentioned once in the whole of Revelation. What we are told about Rev 4:1 is an interpretation based on the premise that the word Church is not used in the book after the letters to the seven Churches apart from Rev 22:16. Therefore it somehow proves that a pre tribulation rapture of the church takes place. There are several letters in the NT where the word Church is not used. Are we to believe that because of this they were written to someone else? John was given visions in the same way that OT Prophets received visions. Where was Daniel when he got his in heaven or in Babylon? Where was John when he wrote Revelation? was he actually raptured to heaven with a ''spiritual'' quill pen and parchment or still on Patmos? The stock defence given about this teaching and revelation generally is that the book really meant for a people who are left behind but somehow saved when the church has been raptured. Who these people known as tribulation saints actually are and how they manage to obtain copies of Revelation during the tribulation is a mystery.
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.” Revelation 4:1–2 (KJV 1900)
This is about John. And he tells us what he saw after being taken up. It is not the Rapture which happens on the last day after the resurrection.
Spoon, what you're doing here is committing a fallacy called a "burden of proof reversal". While many have jumped in to respond already, the onus is actually on you to "prove" your position, not on anyone else to prove you wrong.
Indeed you cannot be proven wrong because you are correct that this verse, nor even the chapter, pertains to any sort of rapture. Congratulations I suppose lol.
S
SpoonJuly
Guest
Spoon, what you're doing here is committing a fallacy called a "burden of proof reversal". While many have jumped in to respond already, the onus is actually on you to "prove" your position, not on anyone else to prove you wrong.
"THE CHURCH", as in all the saved, is not mentioned at all in Revelation.
Now some will say that is proof that "the church" is raptured and Rev. 4:1 and the fact that "the church" is not mentioned after Rev. 4:1 is proof that their opinion is correct.
My proof is simple. "The church" is not mentioned in Rev. 4:1 nor is it even implied in that verse.
The beginning of the rapture occurred when Jesus said it is finished .The Resurrection gate will stay open til the last day
The revelation is to the whole body or church . If he spoke to John he speaks to bride of Christ the church . The Spirit of Christ is actively working in us showing us. Just as he revealed his faith to John as it is written . The idea of the bride of Christ the church missing out of any part of scripture is not a biblical teaching .
Why would anyone even have that thought?
If missing for any period of time at all it would be when their were kings in Israel .Then the bride was not allowed to participate with the husbands.
In a way, what you have said here is moot -- because, those that believe that believe it because they believe that Revelation is a chronological description of a series of consecutively connected events that take place over a [relatively] short period of time. And -- because they see no [specific] 'church' reference from that verse forward, they have decided that the particular point in the [supposed] chronological time sequence that aligns with that verse must be when the rapture occurs.
No Rev.4:1 is not the Rapture at all. Read and research the scripture more carefully and you will learn that the idea that the Rev 4:1 speaks of the Rapture is a false doctrinal belief.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
It really is very simple. In verse 1 when it says "behold, a door was opened in heaven" the verse is saying that the door WAS already opened before John ever looked up. John doesn't say that he saw a door opening, he says "a door was opened in heaven".
Where in that verse does it say that millions of believers were raptured up through that door??? It doesn't say a word about the church and the only souls that goes up and through that door is John. Tat door was opened the day Christ died on the Cross to give us a glimpse into heavenly things and there is no scriptural proof anywhere in the bible that proves that Rev 4:1 is Rapture Day.
Amen the door remains open .It will close on the last day .No more wedding guests . .oil shortage.
