Gay Marriage and Homophobia

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Jullianna

Guest
#21
Not to derail the thread, but how could an atheist couple unite in holy matrimony, whether gay or straight? I would not consider myself truly married if only under the laws of man, and God was not a part thereof. In my mind that would be a civil union, not a marriage. There's a difference as broad as the great gulf fixed...
 
J

Jullianna

Guest
#22
Ephesians 5: 8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light.

Ephesians 5 addresses matters of sexual sin. Forgive me for altering su palabra just this once, Liamson. But, from reading the above, it seems that from an evil thing, an even worse thing comes. What people do in secret has somehow become acceptable dialogue. It hits us in the face everyday whether we like it our not and steals the innocence of our children. So what's next?
 
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Maddog

Guest
#23
YES! I'm pro-choice.
Right...so you just want anyone who disagrees with you to shut up then? What happens when the law and/or general society disagree with you? Do you shut up too?

I'm not trying to be contentious, but that's honestly what I'm getting from your posts.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#24
YES! I'm pro-choice.
I think you should shut up about rape.

I'm pro-choice. Why not let the rapist chose? :p

Anytime you take a "choice" position on an issue like this you are by virtue, Pro-abortion.


As far as atheism and marriage goes... Atheism certainly didn't come up with the concept of marriage, sounds rather counter-intuitive to me.
 
Jun 20, 2010
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#25
Noone says they did

As far as I know, marriage was designed as a social contract between a man and woman, to enter into a permanent relationship, in order to promote stability in which to rear children; as ours have one of the longest development phases. Also reducing sexual competition thereby increasing social harmony.

If you want put 'ordained by god' notion on top, thats your perogative.
*side note: CC seems to have been thinking I haven't put any character into this message several times now*
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#26
Noone says they did

As far as I know, marriage was designed as a social contract between a man and woman, to enter into a permanent relationship, in order to promote stability in which to rear children; as ours have one of the longest development phases. Also reducing sexual competition thereby increasing social harmony.
Marriage as a concept owes it's origins to religion. Unless of course you try to take an evolutionary approach to explaining it, which the explainations I have seen are rather speculative at best.
 
Jun 20, 2010
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#27
I'd say its speculation to say non-religious pairings didn't exist no matter how old religion is, and whether the first evidence of mention is through religious writings i.e. under god. Since first mention isn't evidence for origin, just evidence that thats as far back as we know.

First evidence, as far as I know, for man-wife pairings is the Hammurabi Code of Law (stone tablet with writings, dated 1700 BC), now located in Louvre, Paris.
 
Feb 24, 2011
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#28
Marriage was started a legal social contract in ancient times, mainly employed by the royalty, to signify that THIS woman would take over after THIS man dies, or vise versa. It was used by normal people for property rights but was not considered a religious act for YEARS until the Pharoahs began using it as a form of choosing a goddess to rule with them in the afterlife.

And, TROLL. You cannot compare rape to abortion. That's like comparing fist fighting someone to genocide. not a valid comparison. a fetus isn't alive by medical or legal definition.

Julianna, I understand your point of view, but marriage wasn't originally a religious act, as I stated above. Marriage has always been a legal issue. And legally, things should not be based on a religious belief. Murder, rape, stealing... are things that, yes most religions would say they are wrong, but are generally detremental to the human population. Two guys marrying does nothing to harm anyone, and no, it does not "corrupt young people" like some like to say. That's absurd. Seeing straight people hold hands or kiss don't affect gay kids growing up... and vise versa.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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#29
Why can't you just let this die? You're losing the battle. Gay marriage will be legal in America soon. Just lay off an let the homos be happy for once.
I think this every time a new thread about homosexuality gets started. I really wish people would just let it go already, decide what's right for them personally, and move on with their lives.
 
Jan 21, 2011
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#31
So, it’s only natural that the people pushing the gay agenda use the equality argument for ‘gay marriage’. They say gay couples should have equal right to marriage as normal or heterosexual couples do. And, if such is not provided for them, society is evil, wicked, and oppressive.
More charitably, that society is still learning its lessons on how to live up to its values. I would prefer to say that society is still immature and a little too easily fascinated.

For instance, we are still very susceptible to politicians using relatively inessential issues to polarize the polity during elections. A surprising number of people in my state found themselves in the polls for the first time to vote for or against Prop 2, but these same people hadn't found it necessary to vote in previous years on issues that had greater impacts on their daily lives. Why? Because they'd been successfully entranced by the shiny Issue Du Jour.

Fortunately, gay marriage has already lost its gleam. Amusingly (to me anyway), a number of evangelical Christians lost their taste for CA Prop 8 when it was revealed that the Mormon church poured an enormous amount of money and time into it. It was seen as meddling by out-of-state apostates. Add to that the few vocal supporters of bans who later were outed as not only gay but also unfaithful and sometimes coke-addled, and far fewer are willing to use this particular political lever. This particular tail will no longer wag the dog.

It's in the courts now and there's relatively little we can do one way or another to affect gay marriage's trajectory. Society has undergone another necessary yet painful growing phase. Society is, at the end of the day, merely human. I'm sorry this isn't the raving, unbalanced response you seem to believe is the best we can do, but this is what happens when you say those sorts of things in public.

The problem of marriage equality is more serious because gay marriage is utterly valueless. <...> But, what is &#8216;gay marriage&#8217; good for?
This is a good question to ask. You haven't really begun to seriously consider it, though, as the rest of the rant insists that there is no good in gay marriage. Even those who argue seriously against gay marriage, however, usually tip their hat to the idea that it would have some good for those who were previously denied legal protections, but that they aren't good enough; the CA Prop 8 transcripts are good reading for both sides of the argument. The extent to which you familiarize yourself with the arguments and acknowledge the good points that the other side has made is the extent to which you'll be able to be taken seriously.

In any case, gay marriage is not utterly valueless. And the fight is not just about gay marriage - in my own state, for instance, Prop 2 prevents any legal arrangements which are comparable to marriage. Let us not pretend it's just about the word. Christians have gone much further in their support of new laws.

Gays cannot have kids. I know of no child that was born of a man having sex with another man or two women being sexual together. So, homosexuality is not the equal of heterosexuality.
It seems as though you're teaching that the validity of a marriage derives solely from the production of children, nevermind their care. I would submit that you haven't really thought this argument through. Nearly any combination of humans, as long as they have a male and female in there somewhere, can produce a child. None of us would, however, be willing to assign "marriage" to a group of women tied to rape posts. Fecundity may be a very important aspect of marriage, but if you make it the means by which we decide what is marriage and what is not, there will be unintended consequences.

To be honest, I was a little disappointed to read this. Most of your posts are well-considered. The sense I get from this one, though, is that you ran straight to your computer after an unfulfilling argument with someone in the real world. Your lazy and intellectually dishonest lack of dedication to the serious arguments from the other side says more than the content of the disagreement.
 
J

Jullianna

Guest
#32
Marriage was started a legal social contract in ancient times, mainly employed by the royalty, to signify that THIS woman would take over after THIS man dies, or vise versa. It was used by normal people for property rights but was not considered a religious act for YEARS until the Pharoahs began using it as a form of choosing a goddess to rule with them in the afterlife.

And, TROLL. You cannot compare rape to abortion. That's like comparing fist fighting someone to genocide. not a valid comparison. a fetus isn't alive by medical or legal definition.

Julianna, I understand your point of view, but marriage wasn't originally a religious act, as I stated above. Marriage has always been a legal issue. And legally, things should not be based on a religious belief. Murder, rape, stealing... are things that, yes most religions would say they are wrong, but are generally detremental to the human population. Two guys marrying does nothing to harm anyone, and no, it does not "corrupt young people" like some like to say. That's absurd. Seeing straight people hold hands or kiss don't affect gay kids growing up... and vise versa.
As politely as I can say this, it makes absolutely no sense to accept that the law, which came long after the gift God gave to Adam and Eve, is the origin of marriage. The fact that you or anyone else states it doesn't make it true. Though I will agree that man's law is the origin of satan's facsimile thereof - civil union.

The origin of something does not come after its creation. Law students are taught the origin of our current day legal system. We have a plaque in this regard in our law library here at my office, so I'm wondering how this can even be an issue.

I think we both know that, when it comes to what we are hit in the face with on tv, the Internet, etc. we're talking about a whole lot more than kissing and hand-holding. We're talking about sodomy, which is still illegal in a whole lot of places. If we're going to talk LAW, then let's just call it what it is.

You'll have to forgive me if I politely decline to accept that it is proper to discuss or view something the scriptures forbid, as posted above. When the scriptures so clearly state a thing, given the choice between obeying man and God, I must choose God. Political correctness might sell better in a non-christian thread where people are more willing to cave to popular opinion. Might doesn't make right. That the masses crucified Christ is proof of that, isn't it?

Sodomite civil union cannot possibly equate to holy matrimony, no matter how politically correct one might try to make it sound. If it was an abomination back in the day and offensive enough to the Lord to cause Him to turn two cities into salt flats, and God is the same yesterday, today and forever, I can't imagine that He finds it less so today simply because He hears a few squeaky little human voices complaining that He's politically incorrect.

But, please do not take my word for anything. Take HIS. Please seek His face in this regard.
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#33
Those of the Spirit understand the things of the Spirit. Those of the flesh understand the things of the flesh. This is one of many of those issues upon which the Spirit and the flesh will simply not agree, so there are times when one has to simply lay it down to avoid foolishness.

God bless you all. May He grant you wisdom, love and truth.
 

Liamson

Senior Member
Feb 3, 2010
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#34
It seems as though you're teaching that the validity of a marriage derives solely from the production of children, nevermind their care. I would submit that you haven't really thought this argument through. Nearly any combination of humans, as long as they have a male and female in there somewhere, can produce a child. None of us would, however, be willing to assign "marriage" to a group of women tied to rape posts. Fecundity may be a very important aspect of marriage, but if you make it the means by which we decide what is marriage and what is not, there will be unintended consequences.

To be honest, I was a little disappointed to read this. Most of your posts are well-considered. The sense I get from this one, though, is that you ran straight to your computer after an unfulfilling argument with someone in the real world. Your lazy and intellectually dishonest lack of dedication to the serious arguments from the other side says more than the content of the disagreement.
(Bad excuse #1) I didn't really have the space to put a lot of what makes the argument a bit more rounded in the initial post.

Essentially the need for a life-long bonded commitment is the essential nucleus of society. Laws are formed to aid protect and propagate this because, Ideally and Physiologically (biased I know) it is out of this that children are born and raised. Clearly, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, the biggest factor in a child becoming a healthy successful (relative) independent adult, is going to draw heavily on how they were raised. I'm not coming from the children's perspective necessarily but, I am advocating that nothing should be made equivalent to this institution that provides a stable foundation for new life.

They can call it whatever they want to call it but, leave marriage alone.

There is another ideology that says that the dissolution of marriage is inevitable and that marriage is an archaic institution that should be replaced with the "it takes a village" motif. People that say, society has advanced far enough that the infrastructure exists to raise children regardless of the situation. In my experience this is an atrocious cop-out, children are born out of marriage very very often and it is more of a challenge than one person should be expected to reasonably bear. However because it can be done and is done so often, both to success and to failure, the apparent NEED for a marriage institution SEEMS trivial and to deny persons of a particular orientation the right to call their relationship a marriage, also seems trivial if we cannot see the point of marriage in the first place. However, all these factors only illuminate a need for it as it was properly intended.

50% divorce rate is unacceptable. Urban Single Parent Households sending their kids to prison is unacceptable. Men who have kids out of sheer irresponsibility is unacceptable. Gay marriage, Androgyny, Polygamy or any unnatural substitute for the institution of marriage is unacceptable.
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#35
I think this every time a new thread about homosexuality gets started. I really wish people would just let it go already, decide what's right for them personally, and move on with their lives.
Why tell the truth according to the scriptures? Because we are to follow in the footsteps of Christ and He has commanded that we not hide our Light and that we share the Truth as lovingly as possible (To avoid a redundant post, the scriptures re: this can be found in the "Why be Salty?" thread). This being a christian forum, one might have assumed that to be a given. *shrugs* There are far more entertaining things I would rather be doing right now. :) But, christians are accountable to Him, are not their own, and are not called to be popular. I’m here for christian fellowship, edification and truth. If I wanted to read worldly views and deception, I’d be participating in an entirely different sort of thread.

But, remembering college days when one is easily swayed by the ear-tickling voices of professors, the media and/or peer pressure to believe a lie or two, it is with loving compassion that I feel compelled to stand for the truth as called. There’s no highway option regarding Christ’s commands other than the highway to hell (no matter how many tv personalities want to deny its existence...but that’s a discussion for another thread).
There are headings in these forums regarding the content of each thread and every individual has the right to open or not/participate or not. There are forums I choose not to enter myself for personal reasons.

It’s a bit odd that some folks are all for individuals doing whatever feels right to them as long as they are not personally affected, but never once did I or my fellow officers ever hear anyone imply that we should shut up and mind own business while putting our lives on the line to protect the innocent, ignorant and helpless from violent criminals who were just doing what THEY thought was right. Or is it simply a matter of degree for some folks?

If so, let’s talk about degree. When an officer or soldier protects human life/decency/peace, they are doing it for this life only. When christians do as they are called by the Lord and stand in the gap with HIS TRUTH (and not their own), I would hope they are doing it in loving compassion for reasons relating to eternal life. If not, then it is indeed a worthless clanging cymbal.

If Abraham had simply walked away and kept his mouth shut, his nephew, Lot, and Lot’s entire family would have been left in the salt flat of the sodomites, and would have been eternally damned. But he spoke up in love. Please hear my heart and know that this was typed and prayer went up for ALL of the posters of this thread for the very same reason.

Wisdom and maturity teaches one that once a thing has been explained a time or two, it’s not for lack of understanding that contention remains. It’s a conscious choice to reject and rebel. At that point, the scriptures indicate that it’s okay for us to shake the dirt off of our sandals and move on. The battle at that point is with the Lord, not that of His children.

I bid this thread farewell. :) On to the fun stuff! God bless! <3
 
Jan 21, 2011
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#36
Why tell the truth according to the scriptures? Because we are to follow in the footsteps of Christ and He has commanded that we not hide our Light and that we share the Truth as lovingly as possible (To avoid a redundant post, the scriptures re: this can be found in the "Why be Salty?" thread).
To continue on with the metaphor, a method of subjugation after war would be to salt an enemy's earth, so that nothing could grow there later. Not only had a people been humbled, but their children's children would starve, if not simply have to emigrate and become foreigners in strange lands. To Jesus' parable of the seeds and soils I'd add the salted earth, that which has been so overly exposed to the vital elements (which would otherwise help it support life) that it no longer even admits life.

Christians know that overfamiliarity with the gospel inoculates people against it. I grew up in such proximity to Jesus that it seemed like I was saved by proximity. I wasn't Christian by conversion, I was Christian by birth. Jesus didn't sound blasphemous - he sounded boring, because we all knew where the story was going. God becomes man (yawn), dies (yawn), and rises from the dead (yawn). Familiarity, as they say, breeds contempt. How Christians as a group have chosen to handle their discussion of homosexuality is similar.

Every single Christian I've had this conversation with reports that he's just doing his duty, tossing a moderate bit of salt around, but the cumulative effect is devastating. By the time I was ten, much less twenty, I'd heard all these arguments at least more than once. If nearly every honest interaction with a Christian comes back to the "gay thing," then the relationship with Christianity at large is poisoned even if any single Christian is just tossing out their little bit.

For instance, is Liamson's initial post all that outrageous? No, it's just a lazy, angry rant that I could have passed over without comment. But taken in context of the whole of Christianity's conversation with homosexuals, it's an entirely unnecessary addition to an already heaping pile. Which person here needed that additional drop of vitriol? I imagine his time would have been much better spent on gossip, corporate greed, maybe anger. Is it necessarily the case that every attempt at communicating truth is following Jesus' mandate? Obviously not, and I think you agree:

At that point, the scriptures indicate that it’s okay for us to shake the dirt off of our sandals and move on.
I imagine a line of Christians standing outside Sodom, each waiting with the same message on their lips, each going through the ritual of leaving the town behind when they're not accepted well. Each lamenting to the one before and behind him how unpopular his message is. Each believes he has to try his own hand at it before the message can be considered delivered. Let me put this into context:

Liamson said:
They can call it whatever they want to call it but, leave marriage alone.
The deal is that we can't. The Christians in my state have passed laws to prevent me from doing precisely that. This last election cycle, millions were spent telling the world what Christians thought about homosexuals and their legal rights. I drive by billboards on the way to work. The pastor outside of my office building reminds me daily what he thinks of sodomites. I log in to CC to further explore the faith and see my sin focused on with a disturbing frequency.

I sit in a pile of salt left by (sometimes not so) well-meaning Christians, each of which thinks they're doing the unpopular, difficult thing. Each thinking they're Abraham, God's appointed messenger to the clueless city. Each pays lip service to love. We're not sure how to communicate that we get it, that we'd like a safer environment in which to have a conversation. The few of us who do choose to continue in dialogue with Christians are trying to do a public service. The message is, admittedly, couched in frustration if not simply anger. I've winced, reading some of our recent defenders on CC.

But, how should someone in my situation handle the incessant flow of self-appointed Abrahams? I've take sabbaticals from CC and Christians in general a couple of times, because I get soul-tired. Liamson's post was enough to make me consider another. I wonder - do you know we're listening? That we're real people whose agendas are more about daily living and happiness than tearing down society? That we're not merely opportunities to spew the rhetoric you picked up a couple of weeks ago?

I doubt it, every once in a while.

I hang out here because, wherever two or more are gathered in his name, there he is.

But every once in a while, I doubt that too.

Everybody has their justifications. Yours don't seem different at all.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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#37
Why tell the truth according to the scriptures? Because we are to follow in the footsteps of Christ and He has commanded that we not hide our Light and that we share the Truth as lovingly as possible (To avoid a redundant post, the scriptures re: this can be found in the "Why be Salty?" thread). This being a christian forum, one might have assumed that to be a given. *shrugs* There are far more entertaining things I would rather be doing right now. :) But, christians are accountable to Him, are not their own, and are not called to be popular. I’m here for christian fellowship, edification and truth. If I wanted to read worldly views and deception, I’d be participating in an entirely different sort of thread.

I don't mind if it there's at least one thread expressing everyone's views and personal beliefs on the matter, but this is at least the 4th thread on homosexuality I've seen in the last few weeks on this site and frankly I think it's pathetic. There doesn't need to be so many threads that all are based on the same concept, "Do you believe homosexuality is a sin or not?" I mean seriously people, there's people that are suffering in Japan right now, America is at war with Iraq still, Africa's as big of a mess as it's always been, there's all sorts of things going on in the world an the only thing that matters to you most is who people are attracted to? Really? If you believe it's a sin wonderful! Don't live that life! The end. It hits a point where you're beating a dead horse, and again, it's pathetic. One thread on the topic I can understand, it's a huge topic and of course everyone has beliefs and opinions on it, but it doesn't so many threads (unless of course you count the teen forum but then that only justifies 2).

But, how should someone in my situation handle the incessant flow of self-appointed Abrahams? I've take sabbaticals from CC and Christians in general a couple of times, because I get soul-tired. Liamson's post was enough to make me consider another. I wonder - do you know we're listening? That we're real people whose agendas are more about daily living and happiness than tearing down society? That we're not merely opportunities to spew the rhetoric you picked up a couple of weeks ago?
*applauds* If I could hug you for this I could.
 
C

Cairn

Guest
#38
You're absolutely right about marriage being a design specifically designed for its purpose, one of which is having children and raising them with both a mother and father.

However, that obvious fact is drowned out today by what marriage has become. In many places common law marriage is regarded as a regular marriage, which it should not be for the same purposes you wrote of. Marriage is a specific institution designed specifically for the purpose of family and a level of commitment between a man and a woman that should never be broken.

However, because our society regards marriage as more a tradition and a legal benefit than what it was originally designed for, it is easy to see how it's purpose and design has become increasingly easy to usurp and disregard.

Many homosexual practicing men and women want to call themselves married, but by true definition of marriage in regard of what it was designed for, they can never truly be "married," but only pretend that they are.

However, that's were majority comes into play. If the majority of citizens in this nation still regard marriage for its true intended purpose and design, then marriage can never be said to be within a homosexual relationship and the state has not obligation to recognize such unions in the same way.

Really, if homosexuals want to be recognized for a certain level of commitment in a relationship, they really need to come up with another design, a commitment with another purpose, and then name it thusly, and try and get the state to recognize that union. They could call it committed unions where the state joins them in legal union and holds them legally accountable as far as is determined by law to hold them. But marriage can never truly be in a homosexual union because a homosexual union violates parts of the very design and purpose of marriage.

But, these kinds of things are to be expected as the time that Revelations spoke of approaches because, honestly, how can Satan ever rule in a world that is not falling away from God? I mean, I seriously doubt most of the stuff spoken of in Matthew except maybe the part about earthquakes and hurricanes in diverse places and the Spirit of God being poured out on all tongues could even take place in a world that was not falling away from God. Disobedient children, love of most growing cold, e.t.c... One would expect that the world would be falling away from Christ, and thus sinning more and more, and rejecting Christ more and more, for things to actually be worse than in the day of Noah. We just have to be ready because when that day finally comes that God has just had enough, if we're not ready, we'll be left with the rest of the world to handed over to the one we, as people, always seem to want to serve, Satan.
 
Jul 30, 2010
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#39
Aw Doug I really have respect for you...saying just because a couple cannot re-produce is useless is pretty spiteful. Many are infertile and cannot have kids..are they??

A person is a person...and equal...no matter the orientation.

Also, your wording of "gays" and comparing the marriage to a tennis ball is quite demeaning.
 

Liamson

Senior Member
Feb 3, 2010
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#40
If a person practiced murder, if a person practiced lying, if a person practiced committing adultery, wouldn't we call them a liar, a murderer, an adulterer?

When Jesus saved the woman who was to be stoned for Adultery, was that a stand for adulterers rights or did he tell her to do something else?

Since when do WE define people by what they do? OR do people define themselves?