Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?
- Thread starter LeeLoving
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
1 Corinthians 2:14 has been refuted many times, the way you see it. Salvation is not the context.
You are either a slave of sin or a slave of Christ. I prefer having God order my steps, not sin.Calvin’s fatalism is condemned in God’s word.
Salvation, according to the Greek, means "a deliverance". The word "save", used in 1 Cor 18:21, does not have reference to eternal deliverance, but to a deliverance we receive as we sojourn here in this world. Those who are believing in eternal salvation by believing, accepting, repenting, etc. are confused because they do not have the knowledge to understand the difference in eternal deliverance by the grace of God, and a timely deliverance, by our good works, as we sojourn here on earth. The inspired words of God are his instructions as to how he wants his born again children to live their lives while here on earth.
The flesh hates God and can only choose idols it loves.
“From Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God.” Romans 1:1 (NET)
Did Paul go forward and accept Jesus as his personal savior? How about the thief on the cross?
Saved in this scripture has reference to a timely deliverance. Saved, according to Greek, means "delivered". These Jews were already born again of the Holy Spirit, or they would not have been "pricked in their conscience". 1 Cor 2:14 says that the natural man does not have a spiritual conscience, because he does not understand the things of the Spirit. The Jews that stoned Steven to death were "cut to the heart" and responded entirely differently than those that were "pricked" in their heart.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Paul was called to serve the Lord Jesus Christ as an Apostle, not to be a slave.
The subject of these verses relates to the message of the cross. Since we know the message of the cross relates to an eternal salvation for those who believe, it can only be concluded that the writer isn't suggesting that believers will be guaranteed a charmed life full of blessings and all comforts. Since it's a foregone conclusion that we will have some struggles as we sojourn through this mortal coil, by process of elimination these verses are about eternal salvation. Though eternal salvation is a gift of God, not works, our sincere belief in the message of the cross is our proof that we are saved.
Scripture proves scripture. Why don't we use them, instead of standing on just our statements? All scriptures must harmonize, before we have the clear meaning of the scriptures.
All true, biblical doctrines are things God wants the believer to know.
And, it is most certain that God has predestined specific individuals to salvation. Their names are already written in the Lamb's book of life.
Their salvation is secure, and God wants these true believers to know this.
Those who chafe against limited atonement are really chafing against God's sovereign will in salvation. Their view is basically that salvation is all about man's free will choices. Their specific issue is with unconditional election; the fact that God elects or chooses certain individuals for salvation.
And, like I've said, man hates this. He hates the idea that a sovereign God is sovereign over all including salvation.
If you think God doesn't choose individuals for salvation, then you really have to explain 1 Cor 1:26ff, which states this plainly. And, in fact, God chooses "undesireable" people, from a worldly sense, to save. Not many mighty, strong, wise, etcetera.
Yet, the free-willer will CONTINUALLY deny these truths, and will not submit himself to them. Why? I think it is not for intellectual reasons, but because these truths are not taught in his Sunday School script given to him by his free-willer teachers.
He will twist these truths around in some manner to claim that MAN chooses, and God does NOT. That is the essence of every other alternative view, whether it is the doctrine of Karl Barth concerning corporate election, or the typical free-willer view that God only foresees the choice you make, and elects you based on that. In other words, they always twist it around to put themselves in the drivers' seat, and God in the back seat, at best.
Why are these doctrines important? Because they teach that God is in control, and for the believer this is a precious truth. These truths were given to encourage the believer.
By the way, limited atonement teaches that the atonement of Christ actually ACCOMPLISHED the salvation of the elect..it didn't merely make this salvation a theoretical POSSIBILITY.
The free-willer view, in the final analysis, gives man the credit for his salvation, because he supplied the determining factor: his decision.
Reformed theology is far different. It teaches that God regenerates the man, giving him a heart of flesh, so he is CAPABLE of making the right decision, and this heart of flesh always decides for God.
The other view claims that man, with a stony, dead, hardened heart, can actually dredge up faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh.
Which one is coherent? Can a man, who is dead in sin, make this decision? I think not.
Read Ephesians 2:1-10....God must give spiritual life. He makes the spiritually dead raise to spiritual life. Those who are his hear his voice, and they are raised from their spiritual tombs at his command. They don't sit in the tomb, deciding whether they are going to come out.
Free-willer theology is so spiritually bankrupt, it is pitiful. You must be born again to see the kingdom of God!
John 5: 25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Notice that Jesus raises the spiritually dead to life, because it is speaking about a PRESENT REALITY.
Ephesians 2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[b] 4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Well, I guess I will leave it at that. Sunday school religionists and traditionalists of the free-willer types will probably go spastic when they see this, but who cares? They are glory-hogs who rob God of the immenseness of the work of salvation. It is a literal raising of the spiritually dead to life.
Join your synergistic Roman Catholic brothers if you want to continue to hog God's glory..they do the same with their system.
By the way, these are deeper theological issues. They are not an appropriate topic for an evangelistic encounter. And, I don't hear any Reformed person bringing them up upon an initial preaching of the gospel.
I am sorry if you are offended that God caused the salvation of every single person who is saved. I am sorry if you cannot accept that he gives the person a new, heart of flesh, and that is what causes the faith and repentance response. I am sorry if you think that you somehow dredged up the faith and repentance from your cold, dead, stony heart. I am sorry if you cannot exalt yourself as the final, determining factor in your salvation. Get over it and humble yourself before our magnificent God and Savior !
Explain to me your interpretation of the message of the cross. I have a feeling that our interpretations are very different.
By the way, if anyone is really interested in the position of limited atonement, here is another thread that covers it from the other perspective:
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...octrine-of-limited-atonement-biblical.187815/
It is apparent this thread will be overrun by those who deny limited atonement.
And, as I said, the real issue is predestination in a biblical sense. There is an outright denial among free-willers that God is sovereign in salvation.
If God elects particular individuals to salvation, it only makes sense that Jesus' atonement on the Cross only applies to them.
The Father elects, the Son redeems, and the Holy Spirit applies. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. The Son will not redeem those that the Father did not elect, and the Holy Spirit will not apply salvation to those the Father does not elect, and the Son does not redeem.
And, the redemption was accomplished on the Cross. Specific individuals were actually SAVED effectually through this redemption. Their salvation was not a mere possibility, it was really accomplished on the Cross.
By the way, I know some individuals on this thread are open theists and process theology guys. They don't even believe God KNOWS the future...let alone shapes the future. Therefore, doctrines like predestination are far beyond their reach. As one free-willer told me, God didn't even know my parents were going to be born, and would have me as a child, let alone know any details about my salvation, let alone actually determine to save me before the foundations of the earth.
God forbid I would worship such an idol as theirs. He has been stripped down to the level of some super human, and not God, who stands apart from time and space and knows all things, from the beginning to the end.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...octrine-of-limited-atonement-biblical.187815/
It is apparent this thread will be overrun by those who deny limited atonement.
And, as I said, the real issue is predestination in a biblical sense. There is an outright denial among free-willers that God is sovereign in salvation.
If God elects particular individuals to salvation, it only makes sense that Jesus' atonement on the Cross only applies to them.
The Father elects, the Son redeems, and the Holy Spirit applies. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. The Son will not redeem those that the Father did not elect, and the Holy Spirit will not apply salvation to those the Father does not elect, and the Son does not redeem.
And, the redemption was accomplished on the Cross. Specific individuals were actually SAVED effectually through this redemption. Their salvation was not a mere possibility, it was really accomplished on the Cross.
By the way, I know some individuals on this thread are open theists and process theology guys. They don't even believe God KNOWS the future...let alone shapes the future. Therefore, doctrines like predestination are far beyond their reach. As one free-willer told me, God didn't even know my parents were going to be born, and would have me as a child, let alone know any details about my salvation, let alone actually determine to save me before the foundations of the earth.
God forbid I would worship such an idol as theirs. He has been stripped down to the level of some super human, and not God, who stands apart from time and space and knows all things, from the beginning to the end.
The word of the cross is Christ crucified, the power and wisdom of God, to save those who believe in the preached message. What did you think it means?