A word

paulnsilas · Apr 13, 2011

VRJ said:

And is this passage meant to suggest the OP is doing greater works than Jesus?
What's the intention of this verse here?

VRJ said:

And?
The testimony OF JESUS is the spirit of prophecy.
What does that have to do with the OP, or my reply?
Evidently you believe The Lord Jesus Christ spoke directly to CC in this thread?

VRJ said:

Every true believer has the truth. We do not need prophets.
the following was true before the Word was complete (even John the LAST prophet knows it), and it is true today.

1 John 2
Warning about Antichrists
18Dear children, the last hour is here. You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and already many such antichrists have appeared. From this we know that the last hour has come. 19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

20 But you are not like that, for the Holy One has given you his Spirit,e and all of you know the truth. 21 So I am writing to you not because you don’t know the truth but because you know the difference between truth and lies. 22 And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ.f Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist.g 23 Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. 25 And in this fellowship we enjoy the eternal life he promised us.

26 I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. 27 But you have received the Holy Spirit,h and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spiriti teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
(NLT)

VRJ said:

And is the OP one of the two witnesses, then?
There are hundreds of thousands of the two witnesses running around today.

VW · Apr 13, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Well, as to Jonah, he heard the voice of God, which made him a prophet, but he did not have a heart after God's heart. What about Balam? He heard the voice of God, but had not the heart of God either. God opened the mouth of an ass, I think in order to save the ass and not the prophet, and he is called the mad prophet in scripture.

I always try to remember that faith does not work by belief, nor does it work by works, but faith works by love. We love Him because He first loved us. And if God is love, do we suppose that He will reward faith that is lacking in love?

In Christ,
vic

1still_waters · Apr 13, 2011

I thought VW said in his original post that the Lord told him not to answer his critics. He's now answering critics and disobeying God?

Kinda confused here.

paulnsilas · Apr 13, 2011

VW said:

This is the most reckless mishandling of the parable i have ever seen.
It means THE OPPOSITE of what you have interpreted.

VW said:

And, you are so sad because no one but you loves The Lord.
Did you know that men are only able to love Him because He grants them life (when they were dead) and gives them the spirit of adoption, so they CAN love Him?

Our Father wants us to love Him so much, yet Jesus Christ speaks this directly through you?

VW said:

And He is saying this to us WHY?
because we are not hearing his voice? AUDIBLY?
Exactly what is The Lord saying that no one else can receive except through a prophet?

A reworking of Hosea 6:6?
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Perhaps you have never heard The Lord say:

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

VW said:

How is it you have Jesus Christ speaking directly through you do not understand that parable?

VW · Apr 13, 2011

1still_waters said:

Well, since you are the moderator, I will make an exception and answer a critic. I have not answered directly any person who is critical of what I posted. I have tried to answer questions, which are not criticisms.

I responded first to one critic because I did not recognize her as one, but do now.

Since you have become a critic, I will not answer you hence forth.

shroom2 · Apr 13, 2011

interesting... Lets look at this. If it's from God, it cannot contradict the prophesy we already have in the bible. And, I John 4:1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

VW said:

Whoa. What testing? Specifically, what testing is this referring to?

That could be true. It's sorta the same as removing the chaff from the wheat.

Is this supposed to mean that Christ is returning soon? As long as He tarries, people will have the opportunity to repent and believe. Until He returns, people have as many chances as they need/want.

True enough.

Again, true enough.

What is being said here? We are supposed to love knowledge of spiritual things (and apply it, obviously)

That is true of ALL people, including believers. We -all- screw up.

That can only happen after the return of Christ.

He loves us right now, regardless of what we do.

Up to this point, I'm willing to go along that this could be a word of prophesy.

I believe this is off. God would not address an assembly of believers from all over the world (this forum) and tell them He -hates- their assemblies and offerings, and does not hear prayers. This is like something from the OT. This contradicts what is said in Romans 8: 38, 39 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Also, a word of prophesy: I Cor 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. I know that there are times when God may say something warning or threatening to a specific believer or group of believers, but again, He would not say this in an "open meeting", so-to-speak.

Again, true enough. Christ has been "coming quickly" ever since He ascended 2000 years ago. And at the second coming, He will not be as he was the first time, humble and meek. He'll return as king of kings and lord of lords.

...just my $0.02

VRJ · Apr 13, 2011

PaulSilas,

If you would read what I put down Jesus was saying greater things than these you will see from hisservants in these last day. How hard is that to understand?
If you have the testamony of Jesus Christ you have the spirit of prophecy. How hard is that to understand?
In Revelation 11 he tells us he is going to give power to his witnesses.............which are the 144,000 and the great Multitude (his two witnesses). How hard is that to understand?

paulnsilas · Apr 13, 2011

shroom2 said:

interesting... Lets look at this. If it's from God, it cannot contradict the prophesy we already have in the bible. And, I John 4:1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Whoa. What testing? Specifically, what testing is this referring to?

That could be true. It's sorta the same as removing the chaff from the wheat.

Is this supposed to mean that Christ is returning soon? As long as He tarries, people will have the opportunity to repent and believe. Until He returns, people have as many chances as they need/want.

True enough.

Again, true enough.

What is being said here? We are supposed to love knowledge of spiritual things (and apply it, obviously)

That is true of ALL people, including believers. We -all- screw up.

That can only happen after the return of Christ.

He loves us right now, regardless of what we do.

Up to this point, I'm willing to go along that this could be a word of prophesy.

I believe this is off. God would not address an assembly of believers from all over the world (this forum) and tell them He -hates- their assemblies and offerings, and does not hear prayers. This is like something from the OT. This contradicts what is said in Romans 8: 38, 39 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Also, a word of prophesy: I Cor 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. I know that there are times when God may say something warning or threatening to a specific believer or group of believers, but again, He would not say this in an "open meeting", so-to-speak.

Again, true enough. Christ has been "coming quickly" ever since He ascended 2000 years ago. And at the second coming, He will not be as he was the first time, humble and meek. He'll return as king of kings and lord of lords.

...just my $0.02

What's your conclusion.
Are those the words of Jesus Christ The Lord?
(spoken in the first person, so not one word could out of place).

shroom2 · Apr 13, 2011

paulnsilas said:

Do I think those words are verbatim from Jesus Christ? No, I do not.

shroom2 · Apr 13, 2011

^^^^
Edit to add that as I noted, much of what he (VW) said is true enough, and it's not uncommon to hear similar things when having manifestations in a meeting. But no, I do not believe his entire 'prophesy' is right on. Parts of it contradict what the bible says a word of prophesy is to be.

(Why does this forum have a 5 minute time limit on editing posts?)

paulnsilas · Apr 13, 2011

VRJ said:

VRJ:
Jesus did not say "IN THESE LAST DAYS".
We are reading it now, but He spoke it before His Ascension and before Pentecost. He was talking to His apostles.

btw:
the Charismatic movement is NEW.
Historically the church has never pretended they could raise the dead or re-create the Acts of the Apostles.

But that's what this thread and so many others are about...people will do just about anything for those apostolic gifts.

He that believeth on me - This promise had doubtless special reference to the apostles themselves. They were full of grief at his departure, and Jesus, in order to console them, directed them to the great honor which was to be conferred on them, and to the assurance that God would not leave them, but would attend them in their ministry with the demonstrations of his mighty power. It cannot be understood of all his followers, for the circumstances of the promise do not require us to understand it thus, and it has not been a matter of fact that All Christians have possessed power to do greater works than the Lord Jesus. It is a general promise that greater works than he performed should be done by his followers, without specifying that all his followers would be instrumental in doing them.

The works that I do - The miracles of healing the sick, raising the dead, etc. This was done by the apostles in many instances. See Acts 5:15; Acts 19:12; Acts 13:11; Acts 5:1-10.

Greater works than these shall he do - Interpreters have been at a loss in what way to understand this. The most probable meaning of the passage is the following: The word "greater" cannot refer to the miracles themselves, for the works of the apostles did not exceed those of Jesus in power. No higher exertion of power was put forth, or could be, than raising the dead. But, though not greater in themselves considered, yet they were greater in their effects. They made a deeper impression on mankind. They were attended with more extensive results. They were the means of the conversion of more sinners. The works of Jesus were confined to Judea. They were seen by few. The works of the apostles were witnessed by many nations, and the effect of their miracles and preaching was that thousands from among the Jews and Gentiles were converted to the Christian faith. The word "greater" here is used, therefore, not to denote the absolute exertion of power, but the effect which the miracles would have on mankind. The word "works" here probably denotes not merely miracles, but all things that the apostles did that made an impression on mankind, including their travels, their labors, their doctrine, etc.

Because I go unto my Father - He would there intercede for them, and especially by his going to the Father the Holy Spirit would he sent down to attend them in their ministry, John 14:26, John 14:28; John 16:7-14. See Matthew 28:18. By his going to the Father is particularly denoted his exaltation to heaven, and his being placed as head over all things to his church, Ephesians 1:20-23; Philippians 2:9-11. By his being exalted there the Holy Spirit was given John 16:7, and by his power thus put forth the Gentiles were brought to hear and obey the gospel.

Barnes

If you have the testamony of Jesus Christ you have the spirit of prophecy?

yeah? And?

The testimony of JESUS is the spirit of prophecy. Jesus was a prophet, His apostles and prophets were prophets. The bible is filled with prophecy.

We have the Holy Spirit who quickens us and WE understand what the prophets SAID. If we can understand what Jesus and the prophets said (whether by reading or hearing the word read), we do not need prophets today (though some sure seem to).

what do you need a prophet for? read what Jesus and the prophets already said.

In Revelation 11 he tells us he is going to give power to his witnesses.............which are the 144,000 and the great Multitude (his two witnesses). How hard is that to understand?

This is your interpretation.
And it's faulty.

VRJ · Apr 13, 2011

VW,

When you say testing do you mean sealing now has taken place?

The gold and the silver is that the division now in the church? (The church is now divided into three parts...serpents/scorpions/mulititude)

Zechariah 13:8,9; "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein." (9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people, and they shall say, The Lord is my God." The Multitude are going to go through the fire of tribulation.

Judgment is now on the church. The church is called Babylon. She rides the beast (501 c 3). in Revelation. The plumb line has stopped. Is that the Revelation God gave to you VW?

God have mercy on this country.

VW · Apr 13, 2011

VRJ said:

From what I understand, which might be wrong, (every prophecy has multiple meanings, not all of which the one speaking knows,) the testing will be the test of love. When everything we have depended on for life in this world is taken away, when all around us is darkness and strife and lies and deceptions and death and war and famine, and the very fabric of the world we live in is shaken to its core; where will we look for salvation? When the man of sin is revealed, seeming to have all the answers to every problem; where will we look for the answers?

A great multitude will come out of the tribulation, one such that no man could number them. But, who is this multitude?

Whenever I am asked a question by the Lord, I do two things. First, if it is brought to my remembrance where in scripture this question is referenced, I go there and read with open hears and open heart, waiting on the Lord to reveal. If I do not have leading in His word, I answer the only true answer I know, which is; "Thou knowest Lord."

The great multitude has washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. And I hear His voice saying now that He is the Lamb to those who love Him, and only to these. And every one of these who love Him, He will bring home to His Father, to live with Him in His house, to actually be His house, forever and ever, amen.

Hope this helps sister,
vic

VRJ · Apr 13, 2011

I understand and thanks VW.

VW · Apr 13, 2011

VRJ said:

As to the church, I do not pretend to know what or who she is. That is, the visible and professing church that we see in the world today. I do know that what we see is divided into so many beliefs and doctrines that no one with any honesty could call her one. She hates herself, (it does not take much reading here to see the truth of that,) and everyone who disagrees with her. This Jesus did not do. If one reads the accounts of His walk, we find that He hated only those who tried to force Him to act according to their understanding of God's word. These had decided in their minds what the Christ would be, and if He would not be this, then He had to be false.

Judgment begins with the house of God. Most have not understood just what the Spirit is saying through Peter in this statement. For the Spirit goes on to say that if the just and the righteous are barely saved, then what of those who are unrighteous? We are in the days, (these days have been going from the giving of the Spirit,) of personal judgment in the lives of those who love Jesus and who have His Spirit, His life, who live in Him. This judgment is a constant revealing of the truth of who we are and what we do and think and say. God shows us His love, and lets us see our lack of love in the light of His overwhelming abundance of love. One must have lost everything of their own sense of self-worth to stand in this light, because this light destroys the old man. But this is just as he deserves. The old man must be laid down in the grave, along with Jesus, so that the new man can rise in Him to newness of life.

But this judgment is not taught, not at all. And so many have never even see the light. But don't tell them that, oh no; for then you will be a liar.

The harlot is religion. She has blinded the eyes of the whole world, because she has a religion for every person who is not alive in Christ, who is not in the light of God's love. It does not matter whether one believes in God or not, they believe in something, and the harlot has the belief that will keep them from seeing the light of God's love. She has spiritual power to deceive, in every way. She is active in the church even as much as she is in the world. Her judgment is just, because she blinds eyes and ears, and hardens hearts to the truth of the love of God that is in Jesus Christ.

In His love,
vic

paulnsilas · Apr 13, 2011

shroom2 said:

Two agree.

AnandaHya · Apr 13, 2011

As long as there is LOVE we will stand

YouTube - "We Will Stand" By Russ Taff

paulnsilas · Apr 13, 2011

VW said:

The Importance Of The Gift
The gift of prophecy was very important in that it met a real and unique need of the early church. They were at a loss without any of this new revelation yet recorded and available, so God gave His word "part by part" (I Corinthians 13:9) through these gifted men until that written Word was complete.

The prophets' importance also is seen in that, along with the apostles, they were the foundation of the church. Upon the truth revealed through them, Christ's church is built (Ephesians 2:20). Accordingly, they are listed second in importance in I Corinthians 12:28.

The Validation Of Prophecies
I Thessalonians 5:19-20 commands the Christian to prove, or test, all prophecies. How? The apostles were able by their miraculous gifts to vindicate their own message, but no such provision was given the prophets.

To serve as a check against men who would claim the prophetic gift falsely, others were given the gift of discerning of spirits (see chapter 16). This gifted person would stand up and pronounce judgment on a given prophecy, declaring whether it was of God or not. An example of this is given in I Corinthians 14:29 where Paul commands that after the prophets speak, "let the other judge." The message of the true prophet was absolute, but it had to be established that it was in fact from God. This was the function of the discerner of spirits.

There was still another check given to validate the prophecy: complete agreement with the apostles was mandatory. "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual," writes the apostle Paul, "let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37). This is the standard by which to "test the spirits" (I John 4:1). This test was final. If any man claimed to prophesy but was not in agreement with the apostles' teaching, that "prophecy" was not of God, no matter what else may have seemed to validate his claim. Agreement with the apostles was mandatory.

New Testament Examples
The gift is mentioned in all five New Testament lists (see chapter 2), but only a few New Testament prophets are mentioned. Agabus is one who had the gift. In Acts 11:27-28 he predicted a famine, and in Acts 21:10-11 he predicted Paul's coming sufferings, both of which came to pass as prophesied. (From this example it is clear that the gift of prophecy involved the ability to foretell as well as merely forthtell). Philip's daughters prophesied (Acts 15:32), but no details are given. Acts 13:1 mentions prophets and teachers in the Church at Antioch, although no details are given, nor does it say which men were prophets or which were teachers. Judas and Silas are designated prophets in Acts 15:32. Paul and the other apostles evidently had this gift as well (e.g., Acts 27:23-24).

Their Demise
Several factors demand that the gift of prophecy is no longer given to the church.

1) The most obvious reason that the gift is no longer given is that there is no need for it today. God has given a complete revelation which is altogether sufficient in all matters of faith and practice. The prophets met a unique need of that first century church, before this revelation was available. The church today does not need any prophets to give new revelation, only teachers and preachers to expose it to the Revelation already given.

2) No revelation is being given today (cf., chapter 13). No one today can add a verse to Scripture; no one today is receiving new truth.

3) The prophets were the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20), which is now complete (cf., chapter 13).

4) I Corinthians 13:8-13 specifically predicts their demise with the completed canon of Scripture. With a complete Scripture, the other prophecies are useless.

Summary
Prophecy was an important gift to the church and met a unique need in the early church, but it is no longer needed or given. Its "partial" messages (I Corinthians 13:9) have been replaced by the complete Revelation. The church today stands, then, at a great advantage without it.

Prophets & Prophecy - Spiritual Gifts

paulnsilas · Apr 13, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Proverbs 12:22
The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.

unclefester · Apr 13, 2011

paulnsilas said:

Three agree. I do not believe there is such a thing as a modern day prophet.

A word

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