A word
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P
JESUS CHRIST SPEAKING:
NOT JESUS CHRIST SPEAKING. NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKING.
What this "prophet" does not understand (actually, i think the spirit of this "prophet" does indeed understand) is that ALL believers (true) have the same DUNAMIS POWER THAT RAISED JESUS FROM DEAD DWELLING INSIDE THEM.
That Holy Spirit dwelling inside the temple of God, (THE CHURCH) testifies of JESUS CHRIST of Whom the Word is written, FOR OUR SAKE.
This "prophet", again proclaims DESTRUCTION upon the Church because she loves the Word. Could this possibly be from God? never.
And, as with all Pharisees and their Scribes, the message is we, the filthy sinful and profane can NOT know "the will" of God WITHOUT THEM.
They look and sound SO holy, SO spiritual, SO righteous that they alone have entered into the Holy of Holies, and they have done it through their OBEDIENCE. Now they are equipped to correct and instruct the teachers and shepherds.
This is a power grab. And it will come to nothing.
See the parallel in this wonderful event: The Religious "Authorities" who have placed themselves in MOSES' SEAT refuse to believe that this simple SINNER who Jesus made to SEE is telling the truth. They HATE the idea.
Notice also, even though the man PARENTS know the truth, they are too fearful to speak up.
John 9
13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. 14 Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. 15So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.” 16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them. 17 So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.”
18 The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight 19 and asked them, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” 20 His parents answered, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. 21 But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” 22 (His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesusa to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.) 23 Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
24 So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” 25 He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” 26 They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?” 28 And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. 29 We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.” 30 The man answered, “Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. 32 Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” 34 They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out.
Today's wandering "prophets" do not have the ability to excommunicate anyone, so they use a different method: intimidation by claiming the authority OF MOSES (if not Jesus Christ Himself), and authority not given to the ordinary Christian (who studies for himself - sound familiar RABBI?)
Many of these "prophets" and "apostles" are actually usurping power WITHIN churches however, and the damage is serious.
Agree.
And the manifold Wisdom of God has been revealed in His Word for millennia.
If people studied it diligently, we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor looking for a "prophet" to tell us what to believe.
Biblical illiteracy is the PROBLEM, not the solution.
Of course, that's been the devil's plan from the start.
Slick, but getting stale.
We have them both to counter that very lie.
There it is again. God HATES the believers assembling themselves together. He LOATHES it. He WILL NOT HEAR PRAYERS.
This "prophet" says the Holy Spirit is OFFERED to every believer: as though the Spirit is to be SOUGHT...chased after....run down....searched for.
When all the while He is IN us, and we are IN CHRIST. But, we who love God's Word do not know The Lord, we do not have the Spirit...in fact, we DESPISE THE SPIRIT.
This is the result, Church, of the rejection of God's Word, the result of a desire for POWER and authority, positions in the best seats...miraculous gifts Jesus Christ ordained for his beloved Apostles and prophets who, with Him, laid our foundation ALREADY.
These "prophets" are laying ANOTHER foundation. Which means they are building some other structure. The thing they are building is on sand, and it will fall, and great will be the fall of it.
They would have us believe the Chief Cornerstone has for some inexplicable reason has torn down what He has already built, and is starting over.
Just look at this threat closely.
What tender-hearted Christian would want to be found doing all these things?
But just tighten that belt of truth a little bit: gird your loins and stand up straight: BECAUSE you love God's Word, does that mean you DESPISE THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Because you have gone so far now, where is there to go?
This ALWAYS ends badly.
The Holy Spirit is not asking me why I despise Him.
He is comforting me and guiding me and testifying that these are all LIES.
NOT JESUS CHRIST SPEAKING. NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKING.
What this "prophet" does not understand (actually, i think the spirit of this "prophet" does indeed understand) is that ALL believers (true) have the same DUNAMIS POWER THAT RAISED JESUS FROM DEAD DWELLING INSIDE THEM.
That Holy Spirit dwelling inside the temple of God, (THE CHURCH) testifies of JESUS CHRIST of Whom the Word is written, FOR OUR SAKE.
This "prophet", again proclaims DESTRUCTION upon the Church because she loves the Word. Could this possibly be from God? never.
And, as with all Pharisees and their Scribes, the message is we, the filthy sinful and profane can NOT know "the will" of God WITHOUT THEM.
They look and sound SO holy, SO spiritual, SO righteous that they alone have entered into the Holy of Holies, and they have done it through their OBEDIENCE. Now they are equipped to correct and instruct the teachers and shepherds.
This is a power grab. And it will come to nothing.
See the parallel in this wonderful event: The Religious "Authorities" who have placed themselves in MOSES' SEAT refuse to believe that this simple SINNER who Jesus made to SEE is telling the truth. They HATE the idea.
Notice also, even though the man PARENTS know the truth, they are too fearful to speak up.
John 9
13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. 14 Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. 15So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.” 16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them. 17 So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.”
18 The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight 19 and asked them, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” 20 His parents answered, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. 21 But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” 22 (His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesusa to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.) 23 Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
24 So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” 25 He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” 26 They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?” 28 And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. 29 We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.” 30 The man answered, “Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. 32 Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” 34 They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out.
Today's wandering "prophets" do not have the ability to excommunicate anyone, so they use a different method: intimidation by claiming the authority OF MOSES (if not Jesus Christ Himself), and authority not given to the ordinary Christian (who studies for himself - sound familiar RABBI?)
Many of these "prophets" and "apostles" are actually usurping power WITHIN churches however, and the damage is serious.
Agree.
And the manifold Wisdom of God has been revealed in His Word for millennia.
If people studied it diligently, we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor looking for a "prophet" to tell us what to believe.
Biblical illiteracy is the PROBLEM, not the solution.
Of course, that's been the devil's plan from the start.
Slick, but getting stale.
We have them both to counter that very lie.
There it is again. God HATES the believers assembling themselves together. He LOATHES it. He WILL NOT HEAR PRAYERS.
This "prophet" says the Holy Spirit is OFFERED to every believer: as though the Spirit is to be SOUGHT...chased after....run down....searched for.
When all the while He is IN us, and we are IN CHRIST. But, we who love God's Word do not know The Lord, we do not have the Spirit...in fact, we DESPISE THE SPIRIT.
This is the result, Church, of the rejection of God's Word, the result of a desire for POWER and authority, positions in the best seats...miraculous gifts Jesus Christ ordained for his beloved Apostles and prophets who, with Him, laid our foundation ALREADY.
These "prophets" are laying ANOTHER foundation. Which means they are building some other structure. The thing they are building is on sand, and it will fall, and great will be the fall of it.
They would have us believe the Chief Cornerstone has for some inexplicable reason has torn down what He has already built, and is starting over.
Just look at this threat closely.
What tender-hearted Christian would want to be found doing all these things?
But just tighten that belt of truth a little bit: gird your loins and stand up straight: BECAUSE you love God's Word, does that mean you DESPISE THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Because you have gone so far now, where is there to go?
This ALWAYS ends badly.
The Holy Spirit is not asking me why I despise Him.
He is comforting me and guiding me and testifying that these are all LIES.
P
Could that really be what Jesus is saying?
Yet this same prophet says he is the greatest sinner he knows.
So what makes him different from you, regular christian?
He hears God's voice, and YOU DO NOT...why? apparently Jesus has turned His back on you and is no longer hearing your prayers, finds you filthy, despises and loathes you. (I think the idea is that it's because you're not listening to the prophet or are persecuting the prophet or the like).
See where this leads?
Yet this same prophet says he is the greatest sinner he knows.
So what makes him different from you, regular christian?
He hears God's voice, and YOU DO NOT...why? apparently Jesus has turned His back on you and is no longer hearing your prayers, finds you filthy, despises and loathes you. (I think the idea is that it's because you're not listening to the prophet or are persecuting the prophet or the like).
See where this leads?
A
is this a reference to me? If it is I would like to note I don't speak about religion in schools. I just live my faith out and follow these guidelines:
"I have not yet reached my goal, and I am not perfect, but Christ has taken hold of me. So I keep on running and struggling to take hold of the prize." - Phillippians 3: 12 CEV
(note I can't read Paulnsilas words but I can read yours uncle fester)
"So my dear brothers and sisters be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless." 1 Corinthians 15:58
the teacher I'm subsituting for has this posted:
"And you yourself must be an example to them by doing good works of every kind. Let everything you do reflect the integrety and the seriousness of your teaching" Titus 2: 7 NLT
I teach people to respect each other and show love for their fellow man. I teach them how to keep the peace and learn and study and think critically about every thing presented to them.
None who know me find fault or malice in me or my words.
Yesterday I cried with a girl suffering from clinical depression who is on suicide watch and is being committed into a mental hospital today. A few weeks ago I told a teenager who was homeless about the program the guidance counselors had set up for foster homes for kids whose parents kicked them out or were to drugged up to care.
have those thoughts crossed your mind?
I am currently organizing a countywide St. Jude's Trike-a-thon to get people involved in bike safety and helping their community and the world. I want to get teenagers to teach preschool age kids about bike safety. I've presented the idea to the County Board of Education, talked to teachers, doctors, businessmen, various churches, Progress Energy representatives about getting funding and people to hold sessions and give out helmets for those kids who don't have them. We are talking about getting people interested and perhaps advocating more bike lines in the city and walking trails.
My husband and my family are training for the MS Bike ride in New Bern. He will ride the 200 K and my 5 year old son will ride the 1 mile fun run to raise money for MS research.
So if you are talking to me. then you should add those thoughts as well. For I LIVE the words of the Bible, not just talk about them.
Matthew 5: 22
Matthew 5:22 (New King James Version)
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[a] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
so paulnsilas why are YOU still mad at me? wait you're still denying I'm a child of God or have you changed you mind? I can't see your answer but I don't like people talking about me and not TO ME. I guess i'm going to have to unblock you. sigh...
I'm the only 28 teacher on the site that I know of.
I live my life as a living sacrifice to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is the only teacher or guide I need.
"I have not yet reached my goal, and I am not perfect, but Christ has taken hold of me. So I keep on running and struggling to take hold of the prize." - Phillippians 3: 12 CEV
(note I can't read Paulnsilas words but I can read yours uncle fester)
"So my dear brothers and sisters be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless." 1 Corinthians 15:58
the teacher I'm subsituting for has this posted:
"And you yourself must be an example to them by doing good works of every kind. Let everything you do reflect the integrety and the seriousness of your teaching" Titus 2: 7 NLT
I teach people to respect each other and show love for their fellow man. I teach them how to keep the peace and learn and study and think critically about every thing presented to them.
None who know me find fault or malice in me or my words.
Yesterday I cried with a girl suffering from clinical depression who is on suicide watch and is being committed into a mental hospital today. A few weeks ago I told a teenager who was homeless about the program the guidance counselors had set up for foster homes for kids whose parents kicked them out or were to drugged up to care.
have those thoughts crossed your mind?
I am currently organizing a countywide St. Jude's Trike-a-thon to get people involved in bike safety and helping their community and the world. I want to get teenagers to teach preschool age kids about bike safety. I've presented the idea to the County Board of Education, talked to teachers, doctors, businessmen, various churches, Progress Energy representatives about getting funding and people to hold sessions and give out helmets for those kids who don't have them. We are talking about getting people interested and perhaps advocating more bike lines in the city and walking trails.
My husband and my family are training for the MS Bike ride in New Bern. He will ride the 200 K and my 5 year old son will ride the 1 mile fun run to raise money for MS research.
So if you are talking to me. then you should add those thoughts as well. For I LIVE the words of the Bible, not just talk about them.
Matthew 5: 22
Matthew 5:22 (New King James Version)
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[a] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
so paulnsilas why are YOU still mad at me? wait you're still denying I'm a child of God or have you changed you mind? I can't see your answer but I don't like people talking about me and not TO ME. I guess i'm going to have to unblock you. sigh...
I'm the only 28 teacher on the site that I know of.
I live my life as a living sacrifice to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is the only teacher or guide I need.
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P
....Stevens taught that the Bible text was a dead letter, and it was only alive as it lived in us and the Apostles. The “word made manifest” was common Walk talk. The “Living Word” was revelation knowledge spoken through the Apostle. The word of God was “Living” because living vessels spoke it and it wasn’t just “dead” text in a book. We believed that we could “become the word” as the word became manifest in us. By this, Stevens literally meant that we could become “the Word made flesh” just as Christ was, and become “little Christ’s” in the earth today.
The spoken word was, in practice if not in doctrine, placed on a par with scripture. In fact, most of us in the Walk ignored our Bibles. I seldom ever opened its pages. Why would I? We were getting God’s latest, hottest word straight off the press.
According to Stevens, he never knew when he might receive a sudden, divine impartation of new wisdom. He was receiving such a steady flow of new revelation from the Lord that he often had a small entourage of assistants following him around with tape recorders so that none of his prophetic utterances would be missed.
Stevens often talked about the Devil. He seemed to talk about what the devil was doing as much as what God was doing. Apparently Stevens was so vital to God’s endtime plan, and moving in such a high level of prophetic impartation, that the devil was always after him and giving Stevens a hard time. Stevens always gave the impression that he was in constant life and death spiritual battles with the enemy,[7] and we were always encouraged to pray for him. In fact, praying for him and listening to his tapes was the main focus of our meetings and of the Walk in general.
... It is not within the scope or purpose of this article to write a complete history of the Walk and it’s doctrines[8], but I wanted to give you a summary of it’s major teachings, characteristics and mindset, because the same beliefs that Stevens taught in the Walk are surfacing in the Vineyard/Charismatic prophetic movement today. I have included a summary of the major Walk doctrines in a subsequent chapter.
The Walk embodied a hyper-spiritual way of thinking that fosters spiritual pride, making the affected Christian susceptible to all kinds of unbiblical, elitist beliefs. The Walk conditioned it’s adherents to view all the rest of Christianity as a type of religious ‘Babylon’: in spiritual darkness, unable to receive the revelation we had, and therefore abandoned by God. The Walk was it. I remember well a comment Stevens made once that sums up this cultic conditioning very well. He said it in a very off-the-cuff manner, but it expressed the prevalent Walk attitude. “Once you’ve been in the Walk, it ruins you for anything else. You won’t ever be able to return to Babylon.” (Babylon being any church other than the Walk.)
Hyper-spiritual thinking turns a Christian into a spiritual surfer, always wanting to ride a new wave and looking to catch the next big move of God. Such Christians are seldom satisfied with the plain message of the Bible and reaching the lost so that others can be saved. They are more interested in discovering deeper truths or discussing some novel insight. One of the greatest dangers behind this type of thinking is to cause Christians to forget that our main job here on earth is to preach the gospel and teach the basic Word of God so that others can be brought into the faith of Christ. Instead, it sets Christians on a quest for ever higher spiritual experience, raising up great spiritual armies and engaging in high level cosmic warfare.
The Cults and the Charismatic Church
The spoken word was, in practice if not in doctrine, placed on a par with scripture. In fact, most of us in the Walk ignored our Bibles. I seldom ever opened its pages. Why would I? We were getting God’s latest, hottest word straight off the press.
According to Stevens, he never knew when he might receive a sudden, divine impartation of new wisdom. He was receiving such a steady flow of new revelation from the Lord that he often had a small entourage of assistants following him around with tape recorders so that none of his prophetic utterances would be missed.
Stevens often talked about the Devil. He seemed to talk about what the devil was doing as much as what God was doing. Apparently Stevens was so vital to God’s endtime plan, and moving in such a high level of prophetic impartation, that the devil was always after him and giving Stevens a hard time. Stevens always gave the impression that he was in constant life and death spiritual battles with the enemy,[7] and we were always encouraged to pray for him. In fact, praying for him and listening to his tapes was the main focus of our meetings and of the Walk in general.
... It is not within the scope or purpose of this article to write a complete history of the Walk and it’s doctrines[8], but I wanted to give you a summary of it’s major teachings, characteristics and mindset, because the same beliefs that Stevens taught in the Walk are surfacing in the Vineyard/Charismatic prophetic movement today. I have included a summary of the major Walk doctrines in a subsequent chapter.
The Walk embodied a hyper-spiritual way of thinking that fosters spiritual pride, making the affected Christian susceptible to all kinds of unbiblical, elitist beliefs. The Walk conditioned it’s adherents to view all the rest of Christianity as a type of religious ‘Babylon’: in spiritual darkness, unable to receive the revelation we had, and therefore abandoned by God. The Walk was it. I remember well a comment Stevens made once that sums up this cultic conditioning very well. He said it in a very off-the-cuff manner, but it expressed the prevalent Walk attitude. “Once you’ve been in the Walk, it ruins you for anything else. You won’t ever be able to return to Babylon.” (Babylon being any church other than the Walk.)
Hyper-spiritual thinking turns a Christian into a spiritual surfer, always wanting to ride a new wave and looking to catch the next big move of God. Such Christians are seldom satisfied with the plain message of the Bible and reaching the lost so that others can be saved. They are more interested in discovering deeper truths or discussing some novel insight. One of the greatest dangers behind this type of thinking is to cause Christians to forget that our main job here on earth is to preach the gospel and teach the basic Word of God so that others can be brought into the faith of Christ. Instead, it sets Christians on a quest for ever higher spiritual experience, raising up great spiritual armies and engaging in high level cosmic warfare.
The Cults and the Charismatic Church
P
The Vineyard
I left the Walk and joined the Vineyard movement in the late 80’s. The Vineyard is a Charismatic church growth movement characterized by a casual, relaxed atmosphere and an upbeat, modern style of worship music.
The Vineyard is at the forefront of a much larger Charismatic revival, lead by the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF)[9], Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner and the new wave of prophets and apostles rising to prominence.
The first thing I noticed about the Vineyard was its music and laid-back preaching style. The music was great and the worship went on for extended periods, the dress was casual and it had a coffee bar at the back. I was to remain in the Vineyard for the next 9 years.
I soon discovered there was a reason for the laid back preaching style in the Vineyard: The Vineyard was very laid-back about what it believed. In contrast to the Walk, the Vineyard was very wishy-washy about what it believed and adopted an easy-going approach to the truth. There was lots of warm and fuzzy preaching on God’s love, personal fulfillment, setting and reaching goals, and dreaming big dreams for life. I used to be in sales in the business world, and recognized most of it as repackaged business management-speak and sales motivational teaching that had more to do with Norman Vincent Peal than the Bible.
The Vineyard was very pragmatic in its approach to church growth. We were often developing new ways to reach the community through various out-reach programs, such as door-to-door food give-aways, free barbeques, or pop give-aways on street corners. These things are not wrong in themselves, of course, but for all our good works, there was little Gospel content in what we did. We put a lot of thought into how to reach the community, but little consideration into the content of the message we were reaching them with. Most of our growth came from attracting existing Christians to our church with our popular music and coffee-club atmosphere.
The Vineyard also took a pragmatic approach to truth: whatever worked was OK. What Bible teaching there was usually came in the form of “keys” or “steps” to reaching some personal or group goal, such as realizing your full potential. Lots of teaching centered on the mechanics of various “how-to” methodologies, such as ‘how-to journal’ as a method to hear God. How-to pray for the sick. How-to reach the community. How-to minister and receive inner-healing. How-to discover your spiritual ‘gift mix’. How-to interpret dreams, and so on.
Often, preaching was little more than subjective ramblings about what the speaker “felt” God was currently saying or doing. And always about how much God loved us and how some wonderful new thing was on the horizon. Always couched in very spiritual terms, but it was typically the leader’s opinions of what God was saying at the moment and seldom was there much, if any, Biblical exposition.
The Cults and the Charismatic Church
I left the Walk and joined the Vineyard movement in the late 80’s. The Vineyard is a Charismatic church growth movement characterized by a casual, relaxed atmosphere and an upbeat, modern style of worship music.
The Vineyard is at the forefront of a much larger Charismatic revival, lead by the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF)[9], Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner and the new wave of prophets and apostles rising to prominence.
The first thing I noticed about the Vineyard was its music and laid-back preaching style. The music was great and the worship went on for extended periods, the dress was casual and it had a coffee bar at the back. I was to remain in the Vineyard for the next 9 years.
I soon discovered there was a reason for the laid back preaching style in the Vineyard: The Vineyard was very laid-back about what it believed. In contrast to the Walk, the Vineyard was very wishy-washy about what it believed and adopted an easy-going approach to the truth. There was lots of warm and fuzzy preaching on God’s love, personal fulfillment, setting and reaching goals, and dreaming big dreams for life. I used to be in sales in the business world, and recognized most of it as repackaged business management-speak and sales motivational teaching that had more to do with Norman Vincent Peal than the Bible.
The Vineyard was very pragmatic in its approach to church growth. We were often developing new ways to reach the community through various out-reach programs, such as door-to-door food give-aways, free barbeques, or pop give-aways on street corners. These things are not wrong in themselves, of course, but for all our good works, there was little Gospel content in what we did. We put a lot of thought into how to reach the community, but little consideration into the content of the message we were reaching them with. Most of our growth came from attracting existing Christians to our church with our popular music and coffee-club atmosphere.
The Vineyard also took a pragmatic approach to truth: whatever worked was OK. What Bible teaching there was usually came in the form of “keys” or “steps” to reaching some personal or group goal, such as realizing your full potential. Lots of teaching centered on the mechanics of various “how-to” methodologies, such as ‘how-to journal’ as a method to hear God. How-to pray for the sick. How-to reach the community. How-to minister and receive inner-healing. How-to discover your spiritual ‘gift mix’. How-to interpret dreams, and so on.
Often, preaching was little more than subjective ramblings about what the speaker “felt” God was currently saying or doing. And always about how much God loved us and how some wonderful new thing was on the horizon. Always couched in very spiritual terms, but it was typically the leader’s opinions of what God was saying at the moment and seldom was there much, if any, Biblical exposition.
The Cults and the Charismatic Church
A
I don't know VW I think God told Jonah that if they repented He would save and forgive them and Jonah didn't like the people of Niveneh much and didn't want to bother telling them if God was going to forgive them anyways and thats why he told God to find someone else.
why is there so much contention about the word prophet? Prophets don't add to God's word or take it away, just apply it to the situation of today. At least that was how it was explained to me.
God's WORD is eternal and came in the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ. HOW can ANY MAN or WOMAN add or take away from JESUS?
I guess I'm being naive. i thought that was an unspoken understood thing of anyone who talks about prophets and prophecy.
Prophecy is merely speaking what the Holy Spirit places in our heart to say.We must READ ALL OF THE BIBLE to make sure the words and the thoughts or in line with it. Because GOD would NEVER contradict Himself and He is perfect though the vessel He uses may not be.
words are just MAN MADE constructs. don't worship them and their appearances. WORSHIP GOD. PRAY TO GOD. LISTEN TO GOD"S WORDS.
simple enough message. I don't get all the fighting and fuss.
Here learn the difference between HEAD KNOWLEDGE of the Bible and Heart Wisdom rooted in the WORDS of GOD and the Holy Spirit (note: i think that the HOLY WRITTEN BIBLE is GOD"S word revealed to the world) :
1. Heart Knowledge: makes you feel safe and loved. You have faith in His goodness and HIS control of your life and HIS care for those you love.
2. Head Knowledge is you know the words in you mind but you feel that you MUST DO SOMETHING.
the some how YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. but it is vanity.
Without GOD leading and guiding you, all the efforts in the world is for NOT.
First seek the Kingdom of GOD. First learn to LIVE and Abide in God's love and Holy Word.
READ the WHOLE BIBLE and let it sink into your mind and then enter and LIVE in your heart.
(and yes I've done this. I read at least 100 pages of text a day. how many times do you think I have read the Bible in my whole life? I spend at least 1 hour a day reading my Bible or Bible commentary and 1 hour listening to Bible based sons and His Holy words and songs echo in my heart through out the day.
I do not say this to boast of myself but to boast of GOD's work and will in my life.
It is what keeps me sane, loving and honest in a world surrounded by darkness. It is what you should do if you have the spiritual gift of discernement and prophecy.
if God told you that today you will meet demon inflicted people:
1. a teenager suffering from clinical depression on suicide watch
2. a christian teenager who curses everyone one minute and sings hymns to God the next
3. a teenager who rebels against the teaching of evolution in the public schools by stating: "read Genesis 1 and 2 if you want to learn about early earth."
If it is your job to teach them about current scientific thoughts concerning evolution that goes against your own beliefs and logic.
Would you not pray as well?
It is all in God's hands and the Holy spirit lead me to this verses:
1 Corinthians 14: 10
1 Corinthians 15: 58
2 Timothy 1:7
I am a child of God, which makes me wiser than any of the world who is NOT.
now a few words of a man I admire greatly: Sir Isaac Newton, scientist that gave us the Laws of Motion and a deacon of his church:
" I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
why is there so much contention about the word prophet? Prophets don't add to God's word or take it away, just apply it to the situation of today. At least that was how it was explained to me.
God's WORD is eternal and came in the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ. HOW can ANY MAN or WOMAN add or take away from JESUS?
I guess I'm being naive. i thought that was an unspoken understood thing of anyone who talks about prophets and prophecy.
Prophecy is merely speaking what the Holy Spirit places in our heart to say.We must READ ALL OF THE BIBLE to make sure the words and the thoughts or in line with it. Because GOD would NEVER contradict Himself and He is perfect though the vessel He uses may not be.
words are just MAN MADE constructs. don't worship them and their appearances. WORSHIP GOD. PRAY TO GOD. LISTEN TO GOD"S WORDS.
simple enough message. I don't get all the fighting and fuss.
Here learn the difference between HEAD KNOWLEDGE of the Bible and Heart Wisdom rooted in the WORDS of GOD and the Holy Spirit (note: i think that the HOLY WRITTEN BIBLE is GOD"S word revealed to the world) :
1. Heart Knowledge: makes you feel safe and loved. You have faith in His goodness and HIS control of your life and HIS care for those you love.
2. Head Knowledge is you know the words in you mind but you feel that you MUST DO SOMETHING.
the some how YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. but it is vanity.
Without GOD leading and guiding you, all the efforts in the world is for NOT.
First seek the Kingdom of GOD. First learn to LIVE and Abide in God's love and Holy Word.
READ the WHOLE BIBLE and let it sink into your mind and then enter and LIVE in your heart.
(and yes I've done this. I read at least 100 pages of text a day. how many times do you think I have read the Bible in my whole life? I spend at least 1 hour a day reading my Bible or Bible commentary and 1 hour listening to Bible based sons and His Holy words and songs echo in my heart through out the day.
I do not say this to boast of myself but to boast of GOD's work and will in my life.
It is what keeps me sane, loving and honest in a world surrounded by darkness. It is what you should do if you have the spiritual gift of discernement and prophecy.
if God told you that today you will meet demon inflicted people:
1. a teenager suffering from clinical depression on suicide watch
2. a christian teenager who curses everyone one minute and sings hymns to God the next
3. a teenager who rebels against the teaching of evolution in the public schools by stating: "read Genesis 1 and 2 if you want to learn about early earth."
If it is your job to teach them about current scientific thoughts concerning evolution that goes against your own beliefs and logic.
Would you not pray as well?
It is all in God's hands and the Holy spirit lead me to this verses:
1 Corinthians 14: 10
1 Corinthians 15: 58
2 Timothy 1:7
I am a child of God, which makes me wiser than any of the world who is NOT.
now a few words of a man I admire greatly: Sir Isaac Newton, scientist that gave us the Laws of Motion and a deacon of his church:
" I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
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P
"gift ministries"? what is that exactly?
This?:
Question: "What is the five (5) fold ministry?"
Answer: The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers." Primarily as a result of this verse, some believe God has restored, or is restoring, the offices of apostle and prophet in the church today. Ephesians 4:12-13 tells us that the purpose of the five-fold ministry is, "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." So, since the body of Christ definitely is not built up to unity in the faith and has not attained to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, the thinking goes, the offices of apostle and prophet must still be in effect.
However, Ephesians 2:20 informs us that the church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone." If the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, are we still building the foundation? Hebrews 6:1-3 encourages us to move on from the foundation. Although Jesus Christ is most definitely active in the church today, His role as the cornerstone of the church was completed with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. If the work of the cornerstone is, in that sense, complete, so must the work of the apostles and prophets, who were the foundation, be complete.
What was the role of the apostles and prophets? It was to proclaim God's revelation, to teach the new truth the church would need to grow and thrive. The apostles and prophets completed this mission. How? By giving us the Word of God. The Word of God is the completed revelation of God. The Bible contains everything the church needs to know to grow, thrive, and fulfill God's mission (2 Timothy 3:15-16). The cornerstone work of the apostles and prophets is complete. The ongoing work of the apostles and prophets is manifested in the Holy Spirit speaking through and teaching us God's Word. In that sense, the five-fold ministry is still active.
What is the five (5) fold ministry?
........................................
Also, if possible, could you describe and provide some links to what you believe are "manifestations of The Holy Spirt"? I would like to see for myself.
This?:
Question: "What is the five (5) fold ministry?"
Answer: The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers." Primarily as a result of this verse, some believe God has restored, or is restoring, the offices of apostle and prophet in the church today. Ephesians 4:12-13 tells us that the purpose of the five-fold ministry is, "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." So, since the body of Christ definitely is not built up to unity in the faith and has not attained to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, the thinking goes, the offices of apostle and prophet must still be in effect.
However, Ephesians 2:20 informs us that the church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone." If the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, are we still building the foundation? Hebrews 6:1-3 encourages us to move on from the foundation. Although Jesus Christ is most definitely active in the church today, His role as the cornerstone of the church was completed with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. If the work of the cornerstone is, in that sense, complete, so must the work of the apostles and prophets, who were the foundation, be complete.
What was the role of the apostles and prophets? It was to proclaim God's revelation, to teach the new truth the church would need to grow and thrive. The apostles and prophets completed this mission. How? By giving us the Word of God. The Word of God is the completed revelation of God. The Bible contains everything the church needs to know to grow, thrive, and fulfill God's mission (2 Timothy 3:15-16). The cornerstone work of the apostles and prophets is complete. The ongoing work of the apostles and prophets is manifested in the Holy Spirit speaking through and teaching us God's Word. In that sense, the five-fold ministry is still active.
What is the five (5) fold ministry?
........................................
Also, if possible, could you describe and provide some links to what you believe are "manifestations of The Holy Spirt"? I would like to see for myself.
A
if you have what you need why are you wasting time pestering him and others. Why don't you just go and DO what God asks of you?
(are you going to tell me causing contention and arguments what God asked you to do? because read below God gives you a to do list, are you DOING them?)
( My answer since you are probably gonna want to know: i'm keeping VW company and encouraging him to read God's Words in the Bible and have Faith and trust in God if you wonder why I'm on this thread. He's my friend and I believe a brother in Christ)
Matthew 25:31-42 (New King James Version)
The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[a] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
(are you going to tell me causing contention and arguments what God asked you to do? because read below God gives you a to do list, are you DOING them?)
( My answer since you are probably gonna want to know: i'm keeping VW company and encouraging him to read God's Words in the Bible and have Faith and trust in God if you wonder why I'm on this thread. He's my friend and I believe a brother in Christ)
Matthew 25:31-42 (New King James Version)
The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[a] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
The five gift ministries are listed in Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
What are they for?
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Until when?
Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(in other words, they will be with us until the return of Christ)
The manifestations are discussed in I Cor 12 and 14, primarily. There are nine of them.
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The manifestations are proofs, or evidences, that a person is born again, that they have the gift of holy spirit residing in them. If you're a Christian, whether you know it or not, you have the ability to operate the manifestations. Most don't know it, or don't believe it, so they don't. But they can...
God bless.
What are they for?
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Until when?
Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(in other words, they will be with us until the return of Christ)
The manifestations are discussed in I Cor 12 and 14, primarily. There are nine of them.
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The manifestations are proofs, or evidences, that a person is born again, that they have the gift of holy spirit residing in them. If you're a Christian, whether you know it or not, you have the ability to operate the manifestations. Most don't know it, or don't believe it, so they don't. But they can...
God bless.