Worship bands get salaries? I gotta join your church!
ok ok that was a guess lol -- OP was at Hillsong UK. what would you guess, their 'worship leader' received a check, or no?
Tithing
- Thread starter DBurrage
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
ok ok that was a guess lol -- OP was at Hillsong UK. what would you guess, their 'worship leader' received a check, or no?
Yeah... probably a portion of the royalties, plus songwriting credits, etc. I'm sure none of the regulars are hurting financially.
That wasn't me. I read your comments, and hold to what Scripture actually states on this matter; nothing.
Yep, its an argument from silence.
I take it this way, God sowed his son while I am still a sinner, and reap an entire Body of Christ. (Romans 5:8)
Thus, he is a generous giver, and since I am created in God's image, whenever I give, I reflect his DNA in me.
The subject of tithing certainly is a divided topic among the Christians faith and and of course everyone believes their answer to be the correct one but my opinion is that tithing for the right reason is what is vital. Propserity teachers may believe in giving in abundance believing God will return to you double for your generosity but even if that was I believed if I did it just to receive then there would be no point. Also church sigma dedicts that if you don't give then people may think your stingy but if you give just for appearance or because that is just the thing to do (which a lot of them do) then how is your giving worth giving? to give out of the heart is what God treasures not out of peer pressure or appearances.
Like with anything in both life and in faith it is the motives of the heart that makes the difference/
Like with anything in both life and in faith it is the motives of the heart that makes the difference/
Good Day DBurrage, and Welcome.
If you do a search you will find many threads on tithing. The general consensus (supported by the New Testament) is that Christian giving (or liberality) has replaced tithing (which was for Israel under the Old Covenant).
While a tenth is a good place to start, there is much more to Christian giving. See 2 Corinthians 9 and other passages.
If you were engaged in ancient warfare, you could look forward to the spoils of war. Othewise you are out of luck.
The prosperity gospel is for enriching the preachers who preach this false gospel. There is much information on that on the Internet.
Yes, but giving and tithing are not the same thing. This is exactly what the OP's note to the church leadership identified.Yep, its an argument from silence.
I take it this way, God sowed his son while I am still a sinner, and reap an entire Body of Christ. (Romans 5:8)
Thus, he is a generous giver, and since I am created in God's image, whenever I give, I reflect his DNA in me.
As long as you use the term, "tithing" you cannot separate it from the OT commandment, which was not optional and is not binding on Christians. It only confuses people. Better to use the term for voluntary contributions: giving. No baggage, no obligation, no confusion.
Yes, but giving and tithing are not the same thing. This is exactly what the OP's note to the church leadership identified.
As long as you use the term, "tithing" you cannot separate it from the OT commandment, which was not optional and is not binding on Christians. It only confuses people. Better to use the term for voluntary contributions: giving. No baggage, no obligation, no confusion.
I find that when Christians are arguing against the concept of "tithing", it is very rare that they actually want to "give" more than 10%. Usually their objective is to confirm their bias which is "can I get away with giving less than 10%"?
I mean, if they are trying to argue that we should give more than 10%, then really, I doubt any church actually care that they rather call it giving than tithing.
Just treat that 10% as the minimum to do so, if you feel you should go beyond that, that's great.
I find that people who want to impose their view of tithing on others typically employ this argument. It sounds so nice, so gentle, so liberating, and it's unmitigated manipulative c**p. There is no biblical basis for treating 10% as the minimum under the new covenant.I find that when Christians are arguing against the concept of "tithing", it is very rare that they actually want to "give" more than 10%. Usually their objective is to confirm their bias which is "can I get away with giving less than 10%"?
I mean, if they are trying to argue that we should give more than 10%, then really, I doubt any church actually care that they rather call it giving than tithing.
Just treat that 10% as the minimum to do so, if you feel you should go beyond that, that's great.
As I said, the key is to meditate on Romans 5:8, God already gave you his best, the Son whom he dearly loves.
Once you realize that, than why quibble over whether it is called "tithing" or giving? Just give because you have God's DNA.
I see that a couple of posts have appeared on this thread asserting, without evidence, that we should still tithe or give.
These people are doing the usual trick of confusing the words "tithe" and "give", even though they have very specific and very different meanings Biblically - see the original post on this thread and the attachments.
The argument that they're employing here is that because God gave us his son, we should 'give God our money'.
This is an astonishingly weak argument, but is absolutely typical of the charismatic brigade who would have you believe that tithing is a requirement of your faith in Jesus.
One of the things I (thankfully) learned very early on after being saved is that you should not rely on other people to teach you God's word, or to interpret God's word for you.
Doing so opens you up to all sorts of manipulation.
You should read God's word in its entirety for yourself, so that you have the knowledge and confidence to spot false preaching.
These people are doing the usual trick of confusing the words "tithe" and "give", even though they have very specific and very different meanings Biblically - see the original post on this thread and the attachments.
The argument that they're employing here is that because God gave us his son, we should 'give God our money'.
This is an astonishingly weak argument, but is absolutely typical of the charismatic brigade who would have you believe that tithing is a requirement of your faith in Jesus.
One of the things I (thankfully) learned very early on after being saved is that you should not rely on other people to teach you God's word, or to interpret God's word for you.
Doing so opens you up to all sorts of manipulation.
You should read God's word in its entirety for yourself, so that you have the knowledge and confidence to spot false preaching.
There is absolutely nothing in the NT Scriptures to support the idea of giving money to a denomination for the upkeep of a building or to build one, the Church was not allowed to own property until Constantine's Edit of Toleration (Milan) in 313 AD, hence why they met in believer's houses or wherever they could.
95% of the finances of the early Church was for the poor, widows, orphans, NOT for building programs or upkeep of such!
The Church has committed a grave sin in the way they neglect the poor and needy and use finances (which invariably they have falsely acquired from twisting the Scriptures) for their own unscriptural purposes!
For those interested you can find a study Here on tithing in the Scriptures and Church history...
I use tithing as a litmus test for a church. If it bothers my conscience to tithe, I move on.
Mal. 3
“8 Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me. But you say, Wherein have we robbed You? In Tithes and offerings. (The question, “Will a man rob God?”, is blunt and to the point; it instantly portrayed Israel’s present condition, in that they had, in fact, robbed God! “Yet you have robbed Me!” proclaims unequivocally that they had robbed God, which is a serious charge indeed!
The question, “But you say, Wherein have we robbed You?”, brings back the quick answer through the Prophet, “In Tithes and offerings.” Some claim that “tithes” are a part of the old Mosaic system and are not applicable under the New Covenant! However, paying tithes was practiced long before the Law [Gen. 14:20; 28:22]; it was also commanded under Grace in the New Testament [Mat. 23:23; Rom. 2:22; I Cor. 9:7-14; 16:2; Gal. 6:6; Heb. 7:1-10].
Abraham, a type of all Believers, paid tithes to Melchizedek, a Type of Christ [Gen. 14:20], which sets the standard; inasmuch as we are children of Abraham, we are to continue to pay tithes to the Work of God, which, in effect, is the propagation of the Message of Christ and Him Crucified [Gal. 3:6-7; I Cor. 1:23].)
9 You are cursed with a curse: for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation. (“You are cursed with a curse,” is dire indeed! The effect of this curse was scarcity and barrenness, as we see from Verses 10 through 12. Robbing God of tithes and offerings brings a curse. These belong to God by virtue of Covenant agreements with man; to use them for personal gain is robbery of that which rightly belongs to Him.
The phrase, “For you have robbed Me, even this whole nation,” proclaims the reason for the poverty, among other things, of the nations of the world.)
“10 Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in My House, and prove Me now herewith, says the LORD of Hosts, if I will not open you the Windows of Heaven, and pour you out a Blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. (“Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse,” referred to the Temple and cities of the Levites under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, it refers to the place where one’s soul is fed, wherever that might be. Some have claimed that the local Church is the “storehouse” where all giving is to be brought; however, that is incorrect, inasmuch as those who propose such fail to understand what “Church” actually is! “Church” is made up of all members of the Body of Christ, irrespective of who they are or where they are. It has nothing to do with the building, organization, or religious institution. It is the “Message” which must be supported — not an institution.
The phrase, “That there may be meat in My House,” has reference to the support of the Priesthood in the Temple of old. The Lord has no such “house” at present, because Jesus fulfilled all that the ancient Temple represented, with Him now residing through the agency of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and lives of all Believers [I Cor. 3:16].
“And prove Me now herewith, says the LORD of Hosts,” presents a challenge presented by the Lord for men to prove Him regarding the rewards of tithing. “If I will not open you the Windows of Heaven, and pour you out a Blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it,” speaks of a superabundant amount. The same phrase, “Windows of Heaven,” is used in Gen. 7:11 regarding the flood; therefore, we are speaking of Blessings unparalleled!)
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, sa ys the LORD of Hosts. (In the first phrase, the Holy Spirit uses the word “devourer”; then, He uses the pronoun “he,” symbolizing a personality behind the destruction, i.e., Satan. As well, the word “rebuke” means “to turn back” or “keep down.”
So, if we fail to give to God, the Lord proclaims that He will not turn back the “devourer.” This will result in the “fruits” of our efforts being destroyed. To give to God means the opposite. Crops will be abundant, with efforts resulting in prosperity.
The last phrase simply speaks of the harvest being gathered, and abundantly so, and not being lost.)
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for you shall be a delightsome land, says the LORD of Hosts. (The first phrase speaks of the Blessings of the Lord as being so abundant that other nations will enquire as to the reason.)”
Excerpt From
The Expositor's Study Bible
Jimmy Swaggart
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-expositors-study-bible/id399697870
This material may be protected by copyright.
“8 Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me. But you say, Wherein have we robbed You? In Tithes and offerings. (The question, “Will a man rob God?”, is blunt and to the point; it instantly portrayed Israel’s present condition, in that they had, in fact, robbed God! “Yet you have robbed Me!” proclaims unequivocally that they had robbed God, which is a serious charge indeed!
The question, “But you say, Wherein have we robbed You?”, brings back the quick answer through the Prophet, “In Tithes and offerings.” Some claim that “tithes” are a part of the old Mosaic system and are not applicable under the New Covenant! However, paying tithes was practiced long before the Law [Gen. 14:20; 28:22]; it was also commanded under Grace in the New Testament [Mat. 23:23; Rom. 2:22; I Cor. 9:7-14; 16:2; Gal. 6:6; Heb. 7:1-10].
Abraham, a type of all Believers, paid tithes to Melchizedek, a Type of Christ [Gen. 14:20], which sets the standard; inasmuch as we are children of Abraham, we are to continue to pay tithes to the Work of God, which, in effect, is the propagation of the Message of Christ and Him Crucified [Gal. 3:6-7; I Cor. 1:23].)
9 You are cursed with a curse: for you have robbed Me, even this whole nation. (“You are cursed with a curse,” is dire indeed! The effect of this curse was scarcity and barrenness, as we see from Verses 10 through 12. Robbing God of tithes and offerings brings a curse. These belong to God by virtue of Covenant agreements with man; to use them for personal gain is robbery of that which rightly belongs to Him.
The phrase, “For you have robbed Me, even this whole nation,” proclaims the reason for the poverty, among other things, of the nations of the world.)
“10 Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in My House, and prove Me now herewith, says the LORD of Hosts, if I will not open you the Windows of Heaven, and pour you out a Blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. (“Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse,” referred to the Temple and cities of the Levites under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, it refers to the place where one’s soul is fed, wherever that might be. Some have claimed that the local Church is the “storehouse” where all giving is to be brought; however, that is incorrect, inasmuch as those who propose such fail to understand what “Church” actually is! “Church” is made up of all members of the Body of Christ, irrespective of who they are or where they are. It has nothing to do with the building, organization, or religious institution. It is the “Message” which must be supported — not an institution.
The phrase, “That there may be meat in My House,” has reference to the support of the Priesthood in the Temple of old. The Lord has no such “house” at present, because Jesus fulfilled all that the ancient Temple represented, with Him now residing through the agency of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and lives of all Believers [I Cor. 3:16].
“And prove Me now herewith, says the LORD of Hosts,” presents a challenge presented by the Lord for men to prove Him regarding the rewards of tithing. “If I will not open you the Windows of Heaven, and pour you out a Blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it,” speaks of a superabundant amount. The same phrase, “Windows of Heaven,” is used in Gen. 7:11 regarding the flood; therefore, we are speaking of Blessings unparalleled!)
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, sa ys the LORD of Hosts. (In the first phrase, the Holy Spirit uses the word “devourer”; then, He uses the pronoun “he,” symbolizing a personality behind the destruction, i.e., Satan. As well, the word “rebuke” means “to turn back” or “keep down.”
So, if we fail to give to God, the Lord proclaims that He will not turn back the “devourer.” This will result in the “fruits” of our efforts being destroyed. To give to God means the opposite. Crops will be abundant, with efforts resulting in prosperity.
The last phrase simply speaks of the harvest being gathered, and abundantly so, and not being lost.)
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for you shall be a delightsome land, says the LORD of Hosts. (The first phrase speaks of the Blessings of the Lord as being so abundant that other nations will enquire as to the reason.)”
Excerpt From
The Expositor's Study Bible
Jimmy Swaggart
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-expositors-study-bible/id399697870
This material may be protected by copyright.
You forgot to use the term "love" in your argument. As Paul would say, if you don't give out of love, there is no point giving.
Love cannot be forced, its not a requirement.
Thanks for quoting one of the few verses that is repeated by folk who sign up to the prosperity gospel.
See my OP and attachment for a formal definition of a tithe.
Let me ask you this, would you be happy for me to continuosly donate fruit and cattle to my local Church, or would you say it has to be money?
With all due respect you're now exhibiting needless pedantry and circumnavigating the point of this thread.
Are you suggesting that tithing is still a requirement for modern day Christians, yes or no?
Its not a requirement, as I have stated. Even if you don't give anything, you are still saved in the end.
But why would you not want to give?