What does "predestined according to foreknowledge" in the sense of Romans 8:28-30 mean?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Some claim that the word "foreknowledge", used in Romans 8:28-30, refers to events, rather than persons. In their view, God simply "foreknows" the persons' faith decision, and bases his election on this foreknowledge of their decision.

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(ESV Strong's)


Notice, though, that the Scripture says that God foreknew people, not events ("those whom he foreknew"). Therefore, their view that foreknowledge means simple advanced knowledge of their faith decision is not correct. The sentence does not describe a decision that was foreknown, but a person who was foreknown.

God certainly knows all events in advance, but this is not the sense in which which this verse is using "foreknowledge".

God foreknows people, in the context of this verse.

I propose that foreknowledge, in this context, implies an intimate, distinguishing love that God has for the elect individual, which is different than the love he has for the non-elect. It is not describing simple foreknowledge of an event.

As an example, a man in a healthy marital relationship loves his wife in a distinct manner than he loves other women.

God loves the elect, in advance of the elect knowing Him, in a distinguishing manner, prior to salvation. In this manner, God foreknows all the elect.

"Knowledge" in Scripture often refers to relationship knowledge. For instance, the intimate sex act is referred to repetitively in Scripture as "knowing". Adam knew his wife Eve, and children were a result of this intimate knowledge. In the same manner, God loves with a distinguishing love those who are elect. We should not be surprised by this usage in the context of election.

Contextually, Paul uses this concept of foreknowledge in the next three chapters. Therefore, context indicates that this view is correct.

For example, this section teaches that before Jacob and Esau were born, God "hated" Esau and "loved" Jacob. So, before either knew Him, they had a relationship, with God, defined by God hating Esau and loving Jacob. It was not about their merits, as the verses indicate, but solely based on God's love for Jacob prior to his existence. He "fore-loved" Jacob and "fore-hated" Esau before either were born.

Romans 9:11-13 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (ESV Strong's)

He also discusses how the nation of Israel was "foreknown" by God and has not been forsaken, in the same context:

Romans 11:2 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? (ESV Strong's)

He is not talking about simple foreknowledge of a decision, but he is talking about foreknowledge of persons. God has a special affection for Israel, which was not merited by their behavior, as they rejected Him.

The same is true concerning Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
(ESV Strong's)

God knows his elect before they are born, and he loves them with a distinguishing love. Their relationship is defined by him prior to their existence. The same is true of the elect.

Therefore biblical foreknowledge, in the context of election, is better translated "fore-loving".

As I indicated, pronouns indicate the personal nature of this foreknowing. It is not a matter of foreknowing events, but foreknowing people.

And he foreknows (foreloves) people, as the pronouns used in this section indicate ("whom he foreknew"). It does not use the phrase "what he foreknew", which would be appropriate if he simply foreknew the events.

Make no mistake. He does know the events of the future in detail. In fact, he shapes history. But this is not biblical foreknowledge in the context of salvation.

This verse describes this event-based type of "foreknowledge":

Isaiah 46:9-10 9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (ESV Strong's)

Some might say, your view of foreknowledge is not correct, because God is not a respecter of persons. My response is that God is not a respecter of persons, in the sense that Jews and Gentiles are on equal standing with him. However, God definitely has a distinguishing love for his elect, and this is not related to some personal merit that they have. In fact, he chooses some of the poorest specimens to call into a relationship with Him.


1 Corinthians 1:26-31 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (ESV Strong's)

Anyways, this is the topic for discussion. Does foreknowledge, in the context of Romans 8:28-30, imply fore-loving individuals, or does it imply simple foreknowledge of events?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Anyways, this is the topic for discussion. Does foreknowledge, in the context of Romans 8:28-30, imply fore-loving individuals, or does it imply simple foreknowledge of events?

Since John 3:16 clearly states that God so loved THE WORLD, it cannot mean that He picked a few and ignored the rest.

Divine foreknowledge and election are NOT for salvation but for the perfection of the saints. Christ is perfect, therefore "the image of His Son" means the perfection of the saints. "We shall be like Him" means the perfection of the saints.

 

[Blain]

Honestly I cannot say I completely understand this topic as it is a vexing one. God is all knowing he knew us even before our birth he knew the events that would unfold but then you come to the foreknowing of those who would have salvation or not. He loves all of us but then some people become saved and others don't and so the concept of him being all knowing brings to question if he foreknew who would be saved or not and then the issue of predestination becomes a mess.

But honestly why give free will if in the end you would be destined for hell anyways? Why have people born into an unfair evil and cruel world having their mothers hold them for the first time with a smile on their face not even knowing the eternal destination that was preset?
God is a fair and just God so it seems to go against his character to me

 

[Diakonos]

First of all. This verse is not exclusively talking about Israel. Paul deals with them in depth in chapters 9-11

ch 8- The Sanctifying work of the Spirit
(more specifically)
Power for sanctification (8:1–17)
Goal of sanctification (8:18–27)
Certainty of sanctification (8:28–39)

ch 9- Israels's past
ch 10- Israel's present
ch 11- Israel's future

look at the context:
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was craised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Who is this "we" that Paul keeps mentioning? Its the Church of course. He doesn't begin to deal with Israel until chapter 9 verse 3-4:
Chapter 9
Solicitude for Israel

1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.”
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

Think about all the promises in this chapter that the Church loves and quotes and cherishes:
-There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
-He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
-All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
-The Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
-We know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
-Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
-Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
-If God is for us, who can be against us?
-Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect?Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
-Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
-In all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
-For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So If you're going to suggest that Romans 8:29 is exclusively talking about Israel...Then you also have to deny all of these promises to the Church:
Good luck with that.

 

[John146]

Some claim that the word "foreknowledge", used in Romans 8:28-30, refers to events, rather than persons. In their view, God simply "foreknows" the persons' faith decision, and bases his election on this foreknowledge of their decision.

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(ESV Strong's)


Notice, though, that the Scripture says that God foreknew people, not events ("those whom he foreknew"). Therefore, their view that foreknowledge means simple advanced knowledge of their faith decision is not correct. The sentence does not describe a decision that was foreknown, but a person who was foreknown.

God certainly knows all events in advance, but this is not the sense in which which this verse is using "foreknowledge".

God foreknows people, in the context of this verse.

I propose that foreknowledge, in this context, implies an intimate, distinguishing love that God has for the elect individual, which is different than the love he has for the non-elect. It is not describing simple foreknowledge of an event.

As an example, a man in a healthy marital relationship loves his wife in a distinct manner than he loves other women.

God loves the elect, in advance of the elect knowing Him, in a distinguishing manner, prior to salvation. In this manner, God foreknows all the elect.

"Knowledge" in Scripture often refers to relationship knowledge. For instance, the intimate sex act is referred to repetitively in Scripture as "knowing". Adam knew his wife Eve, and children were a result of this intimate knowledge. In the same manner, God loves with a distinguishing love those who are elect. We should not be surprised by this usage in the context of election.

Contextually, Paul uses this concept of foreknowledge in the next three chapters. Therefore, context indicates that this view is correct.

For example, this section teaches that before Jacob and Esau were born, God "hated" Esau and "loved" Jacob. So, before either knew Him, they had a relationship, with God, defined by God hating Esau and loving Jacob. It was not about their merits, as the verses indicate, but solely based on God's love for Jacob prior to his existence. He "fore-loved" Jacob and "fore-hated" Esau before either were born.

Romans 9:11-13 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (ESV Strong's)

He also discusses how the nation of Israel was "foreknown" by God and has not been forsaken, in the same context:

Romans 11:2 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? (ESV Strong's)

He is not talking about simple foreknowledge of a decision, but he is talking about foreknowledge of persons. God has a special affection for Israel, which was not merited by their behavior, as they rejected Him.

The same is true concerning Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
(ESV Strong's)

God knows his elect before they are born, and he loves them with a distinguishing love. Their relationship is defined by him prior to their existence. The same is true of the elect.

Therefore biblical foreknowledge, in the context of election, is better translated "fore-loving".

As I indicated, pronouns indicate the personal nature of this foreknowing. It is not a matter of foreknowing events, but foreknowing people.

And he foreknows (foreloves) people, as the pronouns used in this section indicate ("whom he foreknew"). It does not use the phrase "what he foreknew", which would be appropriate if he simply foreknew the events.

Make no mistake. He does know the events of the future in detail. In fact, he shapes history. But this is not biblical foreknowledge in the context of salvation.

This verse describes this event-based type of "foreknowledge":

Isaiah 46:9-10 9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (ESV Strong's)

Some might say, your view of foreknowledge is not correct, because God is not a respecter of persons. My response is that God is not a respecter of persons, in the sense that Jews and Gentiles are on equal standing with him. However, God definitely has a distinguishing love for his elect, and this is not related to some personal merit that they have. In fact, he chooses some of the poorest specimens to call into a relationship with Him.


1 Corinthians 1:26-31 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (ESV Strong's)

Anyways, this is the topic for discussion. Does foreknowledge, in the context of Romans 8:28-30, imply fore-loving individuals, or does it imply simple foreknowledge of events?

Only those that God knows are predestined to receive the future adoption. In order for God to know you, you must become a son of God. In order to become a son of God one must call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Once in Christ, God predestines you for the adoption which is the redemption of the body. That’s the final destination of those in Christ.

 

[MattforJesus]

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

All the works were finished from the foundation of the world, although they were future events.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

Jesus is the beginning of creation, and the firstborn of every creature, although He was not born until the future.

The Word of God is the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and all things were created with the plan of God to come in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything He created.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Jesus lights every person born in to this world, so everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God wants all people to be saved.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Spirit and bride say anybody can have that salvation.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

If God chooses in the beginning who is saved, and not saved, without their choice, then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, so why would God be calling people that cannot be chosen.

God does the calling and choosing on earth.

God's kingdom is true love so we have to choose that salvation, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth.

The saints predestined to salvation means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world, but that salvation is to whoever wants that it.

For God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.

 

[John146]

Since John 3:16 clearly states that God so loved THE WORLD, it cannot mean that He picked a few and ignored the rest.

Divine foreknowledge and election are NOT for salvation but for the perfection of the saints. Christ is perfect, therefore "the image of His Son" means the perfection of the saints. "We shall be like Him" means the perfection of the saints.

Yes, and this redemption is future, when Christ gathers all those in Him. Predestination has nothing to do with election.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes, and this redemption is future, when Christ gathers all those in Him. Predestination has nothing to do with election.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you an open theist?

In other words, wouldn't you hold the position that God doesn't know the future at all?

If I remember right, you also hold the "corporate election" view, which in essence claims that God chooses no one.

By the way, free-willers, none of you have properly exegeted 1 Corinthians 1:26ff in light of your claim that God does not elect individuals to salvation.

It teaches plainly that he elects indiividuals to salvation, and in fact, elects individuals who are not attractive from a human perspective (weak, foolish, not noble) in order to make his glory shown more clearly through weak things.


1 Corinthians 1:26-31 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord. (ESV Strong's)

However, you guys will not believe what these Scriptures teach. You clasp your hands around your eyes to hide them, lest the truth penetrate your brains that God is sovereign even over salvation.

By the way, Romans 8 is most clearly talklng about individaul salvation. Romans 9-11 uses nations as an example in part of the dialogue, but the principles are specific to individuals as well.

Typical free-willer denial at work again

Open theism is purely heretical, by the way. I'm not sure a person can be a Christian and believe in process theology / open theism.

To claim God doesn't know the future exhaustively is to make an idol out of the omniscient, omnipotent God.

 

[Dave-L]

The way I see it. God would not find anyone to love based on their own merits looking through time. Only people he loathes and hates. So because God is love, he arbitrarily set his love on as many as his righteousness and wrath would allow for his full glorification.

He went to the cross taking their punishment in his own self, making them as though they never sinned. Thereby glorifying his Love and mercy. And he left the rest to their wickedness and sin, thereby glorifying hid justice, and righteousness in their eternal suffering for sin.

 

[John146]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you an open theist?

Nope. I never heard the term until this discussion board. God has stated it in
His word. It will come to pass. There are many things that are not stated in His word.

Election has to do with service. Predestination has to do with the future hope of those in Christ.

 

[John146]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you an open theist?

In other words, wouldn't you hold the position that God doesn't know the future at all?

If I remember right, you also hold the "corporate election" view, which in essence claims that God chooses no one.

By the way, free-willers, none of you have properly exegeted 1 Corinthians 1:26ff in light of your claim that God does not elect individuals to salvation.

It teaches plainly that he elects indiividuals to salvation, and in fact, elects individuals who are not attractive from a human perspective (weak, foolish, not noble) in order to make his glory shown more clearly through weak things.


1 Corinthians 1:26-31 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord. (ESV Strong's)

However, you guys will not believe what these Scriptures teach. You clasp your hands around your eyes to hide them, lest the truth penetrate your brains that God is sovereign even over salvation.

By the way, Romans 8 is most clearly talklng about individaul salvation. Romans 9-11 uses nations as an example in part of the dialogue, but the principles are specific to individuals as well.

Typical free-willer denial at work again

Open theism is purely heretical, by the way. I'm not sure a person can be a Christian and believe in process theology / open theism.

To claim God doesn't know the future exhaustively is to make an idol out of the omniscient, omnipotent God.

Why not stick with the term predestined. You speak of election and then post scriptures without the term. You try to describe predestination without quoting the verses with the term. Strange.

 

[garee]

Some claim that the word "foreknowledge", used in Romans 8:28-30, refers to events, rather than persons. In their view, God simply "foreknows" the persons' faith decision, and bases his election on this foreknowledge of their decision.

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(ESV Strong's)


Notice, though, that the Scripture says that God foreknew people, not events ("those whom he foreknew"). Therefore, their view that foreknowledge means simple advanced knowledge of their faith decision is not correct. The sentence does not describe a decision that was foreknown, but a person who was foreknown.

God certainly knows all events in advance, but this is not the sense in which which this verse is using "foreknowledge".

God foreknows people, in the context of this verse.

I propose that foreknowledge, in this context, implies an intimate, distinguishing love that God has for the elect individual, which is different than the love he has for the non-elect. It is not describing simple foreknowledge of an event.

As an example, a man in a healthy marital relationship loves his wife in a distinct manner than he loves other women.

God loves the elect, in advance of the elect knowing Him, in a distinguishing manner, prior to salvation. In this manner, God foreknows all the elect.

"Knowledge" in Scripture often refers to relationship knowledge. For instance, the intimate sex act is referred to repetitively in Scripture as "knowing". Adam knew his wife Eve, and children were a result of this intimate knowledge. In the same manner, God loves with a distinguishing love those who are elect. We should not be surprised by this usage in the context of election.

Contextually, Paul uses this concept of foreknowledge in the next three chapters. Therefore, context indicates that this view is correct.

For example, this section teaches that before Jacob and Esau were born, God "hated" Esau and "loved" Jacob. So, before either knew Him, they had a relationship, with God, defined by God hating Esau and loving Jacob. It was not about their merits, as the verses indicate, but solely based on God's love for Jacob prior to his existence. He "fore-loved" Jacob and "fore-hated" Esau before either were born.

Romans 9:11-13 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (ESV Strong's)

He also discusses how the nation of Israel was "foreknown" by God and has not been forsaken, in the same context:

Romans 11:2 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? (ESV Strong's)

He is not talking about simple foreknowledge of a decision, but he is talking about foreknowledge of persons. God has a special affection for Israel, which was not merited by their behavior, as they rejected Him.

The same is true concerning Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
(ESV Strong's)

God knows his elect before they are born, and he loves them with a distinguishing love. Their relationship is defined by him prior to their existence. The same is true of the elect.

Therefore biblical foreknowledge, in the context of election, is better translated "fore-loving".

As I indicated, pronouns indicate the personal nature of this foreknowing. It is not a matter of foreknowing events, but foreknowing people.

And he foreknows (foreloves) people, as the pronouns used in this section indicate ("whom he foreknew"). It does not use the phrase "what he foreknew", which would be appropriate if he simply foreknew the events.

Make no mistake. He does know the events of the future in detail. In fact, he shapes history. But this is not biblical foreknowledge in the context of salvation.

This verse describes this event-based type of "foreknowledge":

Isaiah 46:9-10 9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (ESV Strong's)

Some might say, your view of foreknowledge is not correct, because God is not a respecter of persons. My response is that God is not a respecter of persons, in the sense that Jews and Gentiles are on equal standing with him. However, God definitely has a distinguishing love for his elect, and this is not related to some personal merit that they have. In fact, he chooses some of the poorest specimens to call into a relationship with Him.


1 Corinthians 1:26-31 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (ESV Strong's)

Anyways, this is the topic for discussion. Does foreknowledge, in the context of Romans 8:28-30, imply fore-loving individuals, or does it imply simple foreknowledge of events?

Notice, though, that the Scripture says that God foreknew people. He foreknew the events as well. (both) He knows all things and has the power to move creatures according to the good purpose of His will when he does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure. Some complain and murmur as if God would forget the good works we can offer toward the power that works in us being yoked with Him .

Like the event of the "demonstration" of the lamb of God of a work that was finished from before the foundation. thousands of years later.

God simply by faith, or labor of His love made a faithful decision . . . " let there be and there was substance",

Therefore, the view of some that foreknowledge means simple advanced knowledge of their faith decision is not correct. but rather of the new faith that works in them daily previously have none, (no faith) not little

The old testament saints received the end of their salvation from the beginning just as us. When it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:9-11

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Here's another example of the real meaning of foreknowledge:

1 John 4:19 19 We love because he (God) first loved us. (ESV)

God fore-loves those who belong to Him, and that is why they are brought into a loving relationship with Him.

It is amazing how verses make sense when viewed under the light of Reformed theology.

Simple foreknowledge of events, such as a pesons' faith, is definitely not what Romans 8:28-30 is talking about. It is talking about the miraculous fact that God has foreknown/foreloved the elect with a distinguishing love.

By the way, free-willer theology removes the personal and definiteness of the atonement.

How does free-willer theology remove the personal nature of the atonement? Universal atonement claims that Jesus died for a faceless mass, not a group of individuals, and this atonement was not definite...ie, it does not necessarily accomplish its' objective in a given person. It only made reconciliation possible; it did not atone for anyone's sin, except a faceless mass.

Now, Arminius claims God elected individuals based on foreseen faith. So, at least he acknowledged an elect from the foundation of the earth. However, in essence, he twisted election around to claim that God didn't choose people ultimately; people chose God.

Other free-willers realize the inconsistency and claim that corporate election is true. In other words, God didn't elect anyone except Christ, and the believer, when saved, is placed in Christ. Therefore, God elects no individuals.

Like I pointed out, though, this isn't possible. 1 Cor 1:26ff is a bulletproof argument against this free-willer position, as it clearly teaches that God elected individuals who mainly have characteristics that this world disdains. He chose people like this to show his glory more prominently. He is like the star athlete who chooses the worst players, to show by his victory that it was through His strength.

Glory be to God!

And shame on any true believers who diminish from his glory!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Correction to the above (not enough coffee this morning)...


This line from the above:
Other free-willers realize the inconsistency and claim that corporate election is true. In other words, God didn't elect anyone except Christ, and the believer, when saved, is placed in Christ. Therefore, God elects no individuals.

should say:

Other free-willers claim that corporate election is true. In other words, God didn't elect anyone except Christ, and the believer, when saved, is placed in Christ. Therefore, God elects no individuals. Sometimes this is coupled with open theism, which claims that God doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge and does not know which individuals will accept Christ. Their view of God is a god who is not omniscient and is not omnipotent.

My response : it is true that Christ is the elect one, in a certain sense..he was "elected" to atone for the sins of mankind, and he was elected to proclaim the glory of God to the Gentiles, a mission that Israel failed. However, this does not negate the personal election of believers, which Scripture clearly teaches. Karl Barth's corporate election teaching is false, and simply seeks to avoid the reality of biblical, individual election.

 

[preacher4truth]

God most certainly does not save any person based upon “a foreseen faith.” Such a belief is a denial of the biblical doctrine of grace (unmerited favor) and causes salvation to be by merit, given because one “chose to believe.”

One on here, @John146 (an avowed open theist) believes God doesn’t even know the future yet holds to this which is contradictory and absurd.

Scripture is quite clear that faith itself is the gift of God; 2 Peter 1:1.

Now, those who deny this truth can begin patting yourselves on the back for what you did to merit salvation. Tell us again, contrary to Scripture, what you did that made God reward you with salvation?

I’ll stick with Scripture and note well 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

 

[John146]

God most certainly does not save any person based upon “a foreseen faith.” Such a belief is a denial of the biblical doctrine of grace (unmerited favor) and causes salvation to be by merit, given because one “chose to believe.”

One on here, @John146 (an avowed open theist) believes God doesn’t even know the future yet holds to this which is contradictory and absurd.

Scripture is quite clear that faith itself is the gift of God; 2 Peter 1:1.

Now, those who deny this truth can begin patting yourselves on the back for what you did to merit salvation. Tell us again, contrary to Scripture, what you did that made God reward you with salvation?

I’ll stick with Scripture and note well 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

If you want to discuss predestination, then post the verses that contain the word. There are only four references in the Bible and every one of them has to do with those who are already saved. So instead of attempting to cast insults, and smear tactics, let’s discuss the topic you brought up. Thanks.

 

[garee]

Simple foreknowledge of events, such as a pesons' faith, is definitely not what Romans 8:28-30 is talking about. It is talking about the miraculous fact that God has foreknown/foreloved the elect with a distinguishing love.

That is definitely not what Romans 8:28-30 is talking about. It is talking about the miraculous fact that God has in His foreknown/foreloved the elect with a distinguishing love by performing the work of faith as a labor of the the Father and Son's love. The faith is not of oneself. Previously having none. Not little. No life, dead in ones tresspapases. . living in a body of death. .

Two kinds of people ,Those who have faith and those who have none. No limbo, no purgatory.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

 

[John146]

That is definitely not what Romans 8:28-30 is talking about. It is talking about the miraculous fact that God has in His foreknown/foreloved the elect with a distinguishing love by performing the work of faith as a labor of the the Father and Son's love. The faith is not of oneself. Previously having none. Not little. No life, dead in ones tresspapases. . living in a body of death. .

Two kinds of people ,Those who have faith and those who have none. No limbo, no purgatory.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Yet, the word elect is not in those verses. You guys kill me with your private interpretations.

 

[garee]

Yet, the word elect is not in those verses. You guys kill me with your private interpretations.

Yet the product elected is. . the result of the unseen work from within. .That is. . . If a person walks (understands God not seen) by faith, the unseen eternal?

Called /elected according to his purpose of the good pleasure of his will . Some more prideful murmur . .

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philipians 2: 13-14

What's your private interpretation?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God most certainly does not save any person based upon “a foreseen faith.” Such a belief is a denial of the biblical doctrine of grace (unmerited favor) and causes salvation to be by merit, given because one “chose to believe.”

One on here, @John146 (an avowed open theist) believes God doesn’t even know the future yet holds to this which is contradictory and absurd.

Scripture is quite clear that faith itself is the gift of God; 2 Peter 1:1.

Now, those who deny this truth can begin patting yourselves on the back for what you did to merit salvation. Tell us again, contrary to Scripture, what you did that made God reward you with salvation?

I’ll stick with Scripture and note well 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

Right..it's really impossible to ignore election.

Free-willers have tried to make a logical case for it for two centuries.

But, I think that some free-willers here do not believe in election AT ALL, let alone holding the defective view of election based on foreseen faith.

Some hold corporate election, which is the view that God elected Christ alone, and that all others are included when they accept Christ as their savior.

In other words, God doesn't elect at all. And, in their view, he certainly didn't elect Christ for salvation, as Christ was never a sinner.

Like I mentioned, this was a teaching of Karl Barth, who denied the inerrancy of Scripture and from what I understand, he was involved in a live-in, adulterous relationship with his secretary for many years. I don't know about you, but if someone is practicing blatant immorality in an unrepentant manner without eventually turning from it, I would doubt whether they were a believer, let alone qualified to teach.