CESSATIONISM AND HEALING

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G

garee

Banned
#301
Mar 28, 2016
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#301
Sudakar said:
James 5 :15: "And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well".

The woman in Mathew 9:22 had faith which healed her. Not prophecies or tongues, but faith pleases God (Hebrews 11:6).
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Hi thanks for the reply.

Yes that exclusive faith comes from God. It pleases God the author and finisher . The just and justifier of our new faith. The father as the witness of two, saying this is my beloved Son hear me by following what he does.

Its what he gives us when working in us as his eternal reward . A pennies worth according to one parable.

He is the rewarder as the one that pays the wage .The work is of us who have no faith prior to hearing him as he gives us his understanding.

Yes if the person has sinned God will forgive. And in the Mathew reference in order to show who had the power to heal .
The father gave her the faith to move and touch Jesus .Touching him confirmed the father was working in her as he works in us when we through his faith can say amen .

The word touch there has a interesting meaning which can aid in finding the understanding of the parable
 
G

garee

Banned
#302
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#302
Dino246 said:
Do you believe that the fruit of the Spirit is actually "lying wonderments"?
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No that's the fruit of self edification .No faith needed .Make a noise fall backward . Mock God .

No such thing as sign gift .Spiritual unseen gifts yes. God is not a man
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#303
Jun 30, 2015
25,470
13,783
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#303
garee said:
No that's the fruit of self edification .No faith needed .Make a noise fall backward . Mock God .
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Here is your prior statement: "Yes demote the idea of sign gifts.(lying fill me up wonderments called the fruit of the spirits ) ."
Now... although I know your ability to create meaningful sentences is limited, I try to take your words at face value. What you have said here is that the fruit of the spirits (sic) are lying wonderments. Nowhere in Scripture is there anything called "the fruit of the spirits" so I have to conclude that you meant, "fruit of the Spirit" (which is in Scripture) and that you called it "lying wonderments".

garee said:
No such thing as sign gift .Spiritual unseen gifts yes. God is not a man
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Do you get tired of repeating yourself? I'm wondering, because I get tired of you repeating yourself, particularly when it's erroneous or irrelevant to the immediate discussion.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#304
Jun 30, 2015
25,470
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#304
garee said:
The father as the witness of two, saying this is my beloved Son hear me by following what he does.
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Where in Scripture is the Father called "the witness of two"?

garee said:
Its what he gives us when working in us as his eternal reward . A pennies worth according to one parable.
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Bafflegab.

garee said:
He is the rewarder as the one that pays the wage .
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In the parable of the field workers, God is the one who pays the wage.
 
G

garee

Banned
#305
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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113
#305
garee said:
No that's the fruit of self edification .

No faith needed .Make a noise fall backward . Mock God .

No such thing as sign gift .Spiritual unseen gifts yes. God is not a man
Click to expand...
 
G

garee

Banned
#306
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#306
Dino246 said:
Where in Scripture is the Father called "the witness of two"?


Bafflegab.


In the parable of the field workers, God is the one who pays the wage.
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Yes, he is the rewarder one who has paid the wage .

I did not say the father is the witness of two .But a person could seeing it takes two to make his one witness complete.
"law and the prophets"

Circular reasoning as a law . .One God working as if there where two ..God is not a man

Working as one God. The just and justifier of our new faith. The father as the witness of two, saying this is my beloved Son hear me by following what he does.
 
G

garee

Banned
#308
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#308
Dino246 said:
Uh huh.


Garee, you really do not understand what "circular reasoning" is.
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I do not think a person has to study in order to philosophy (use ones imagination) No circular (complete circuit) as law for that twilight zone approach .

Yes according to the perfect law of God .He who sits enthroned on the circle of the earth gives circular reasoning or the ability for us grasshoppers to walk by the unseen . The seal of his love. Nothing can be added to it or taken away from it.

Sealed with 7 seals. No opening in that armor.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

I understand its you that desires to make it the circuit of the perfect law incomplete into another of the endless philosophies of men .

But natural man do not mix the things seen with the eternal seal they are not of that realm of reasoning .

The circuit will not be broken. If it could then so could the "law of faith" leaving the letter of the law with no way to understand God an therefore seek after him .

God is not a man .No beginning no end .Our circular reasoning authority. End to end. faith to faith, face to face .

His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Psalms 19: 6-11

Nothing can be added to it or taken away from it . Humpty dumpty the philosopher fell no circular reason to sufport the anything goes. Just belive your own imgaination
 
G

garee

Banned
#309
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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113
#309
I do not think a person has to study in order to philosophy (use ones imagination) No circular (complete circuit) as law for that twilight zone approach .
Click to expand...
Yes according to the perfect law of God .He who sits enthroned on the circle of the earth gives circular reasoning or the ability for us grasshoppers to walk by the unseen . The seal of his love. Nothing can be added to it or taken away from it.

Sealed with 7 seals. No opening in that armor.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

I understand its you that desires to make it, the circuit of the perfect law, incomplete into another of the endless philosophies of men .

But natural man do not mix the things seen with the eternal seal they are not of that realm of reasoning .

The circuit will not be broken. If it could then so could the "law of faith" leaving the letter of the law with no way to understand God an therefore seek after him .

God is not a man .No beginning no end .Our circular reasoning authority. End to end. faith to faith, face to face .

His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Psalms 19: 6-11

Nothing can be added to it or taken away from it . Humpty dumpty the philosopher fell no circular reason to sufport the anything goes. Just belive your own imgaination[/QUOTE]
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#310
Jun 30, 2015
25,470
13,783
113
#310
garee said:
I do not think a person has to study in order to philosophy (use ones imagination) No circular (complete circuit) as law for that twilight zone approach .

Yes according to the perfect law of God .He who sits enthroned on the circle of the earth gives circular reasoning or the ability for us grasshoppers to walk by the unseen . The seal of his love. Nothing can be added to it or taken away from it.

Sealed with 7 seals. No opening in that armor.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

I understand its you that desires to make it the circuit of the perfect law incomplete into another of the endless philosophies of men .

But natural man do not mix the things seen with the eternal seal they are not of that realm of reasoning .

The circuit will not be broken. If it could then so could the "law of faith" leaving the letter of the law with no way to understand God an therefore seek after him .

God is not a man .No beginning no end .Our circular reasoning authority. End to end. faith to faith, face to face .

His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Psalms 19: 6-11

Nothing can be added to it or taken away from it . Humpty dumpty the philosopher fell no circular reason to sufport the anything goes. Just belive your own imgaination
Click to expand...
Garee, I'm going to be blunt, because your stubbornness warrants it.

You are being dense.

You do not understand what "circular reasoning" means. You don't even have a clue what it means. I have told you what it means several times, and I have pointed you to sources that will tell you what it means, but you refuse to learn.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#311
May 23, 2012
13,058
4,341
113
#311
Dino246 said:
Here is your prior statement: "Yes demote the idea of sign gifts.(lying fill me up wonderments called the fruit of the spirits ) ."
Now... although I know your ability to create meaningful sentences is limited, I try to take your words at face value. What you have said here is that the fruit of the spirits (sic) are lying wonderments. Nowhere in Scripture is there anything called "the fruit of the spirits" so I have to conclude that you meant, "fruit of the Spirit" (which is in Scripture) and that you called it "lying wonderments".


Do you get tired of repeating yourself? I'm wondering, because I get tired of you repeating yourself, particularly when it's erroneous or irrelevant to the immediate discussion.
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Dino who said that ?
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#312
Sep 14, 2019
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#312
wolfwint said:
Thats called eisegese. You putting your own View into a Vers.
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Mathew
21:21 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly I tell you, if you have faith, and don't doubt, you will not only do what is done to the fig tree, but even if you told this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it would be done.

21:22 All things, whatever you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

"What ever you ask" includes heading from sickness.

Start reading the bible.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#313
May 23, 2012
13,058
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#313
Sudakar said:
Mathew
21:21 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly I tell you, if you have faith, and don't doubt, you will not only do what is done to the fig tree, but even if you told this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it would be done.

21:22 All things, whatever you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

"What ever you ask" includes heading from sickness.

Start reading the bible.
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no need for insults I think many actually do read the bible lol.
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#314
Sep 14, 2019
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#314
miknik5 said:
The woman had faith in CHRIST that HE could heal her...before she reached out and touched HIS garment, she had not yet been identified BY HIM as a daughter of Abraham, sir...


She was sick both spiritually and physically...but...when HE healed her, when she knew that she had been made whole, she was frightened...the sign had been effective in accomplishing TWO PURPOSES sir...and more importantly THE FIRST healing...SPIRITUAL...and then physical....
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Jesus didn't know to whom His power flowed. So He didn't perform a sign to her. And her faith pleased the Father.

That faith never ceased, as signs are claimed to have.
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#315
Sep 14, 2019
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#315
miknik5 said:
And the greatest is _________________?

Nor will love cease...and mercy will cover over a multitude of sins, sir...
And not only the one on whom we extend mercy to.
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Don't be off topic. The discussion is about faith for healing which continues and that gifted healers need not be trusted by christians for healing.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#316
May 23, 2012
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#316
Sudakar said:
Jesus didn't know to whom His power flowed. So He didn't perform a sign to her. And her faith pleased the Father.

That faith never ceased, as signs are claimed to have.
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the idea that Jesus did not know whom His power Flowed is unbiblical and opinionated. The question HE asked "WHO touched me" was not that he did not know but HE wanted to exhort this women powerful faith. NO one in the Bible said " IF I just touch the hem of Hid garment I will be made whole. Yes HE did perform a sign because Jesus healed for the following reasons:

1. love and to meet the need
2. to show HE had Power
3. to Fulfill scriptures
4. To teach the disciples

Why do you limit Jesus >? What authority do you have by which you do so?
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#317
Sep 14, 2019
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#317
UnitedWithChrist said:
I suspect that very few cessationalists would claim that God doesn't heal today.

Their real issues is with healing being associated with a particular person who has the "gift of healing". Additionally, they have issues with "miraculous sign gifts".

Generally, they don't claim that God doesn't heal people today, based on personal, corporate, and leadership prayer and God's sovereign will.

Additionally, they tend to focus on God's will for the individual's life, and his sovereign purposes for them. They do not believe there is a guarantee of healing on this side of glorification, and that God works his sovereign will through suffering in the life of the believer.

There would also be a great degree of skepticism for the claims of charismatics.

I would share these concerns although I wouldn't call myself a "cessationist". I simply question the understanding and claims of the vast majority of charismatics.

And, I consider a large number of the visible ones to be heretics who hold false doctrines. For instance, Bill Johnson claims that there is no place for a theology of suffering within the Church, and declares those who think otherwise to be preaching a false gospel. I could list any number of others that are heretical.
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Why the need for healing after the death & resurrection of a christian, if not now? That's absurd.

Moreover concluding "healing is not guaranteed" based on sight of instances when christians were not healed is wrong as christian life is assumed to be a walk by sight rather than a walk by faith.

Instances when christians were not healed are to be seen as opportunities to grow in faith and as tests of faith.

- Further, healing is clearly included in Christ's atonement as stated in Isaiah 53:4 & emphasised in Mathew 8:17. So if someone is not guaranteed of healing, his faith is little and needs to grow.

- Even after God has revealed His willingness to heal through Christ's atonement, justifying sicknesses using God's sovereignty is only a cover up for the little faith and shows reluctance to grow in faith.

Talk of sovereignty without faith is empty as sovereignty works through faith.
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#318
Sep 14, 2019
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#318
CS1 said:
the idea that Jesus did not know whom His power Flowed is unbiblical and opinionated. The question HE asked "WHO touched me" was not that he did not know but HE wanted to exhort this women powerful faith. NO one in the Bible said " IF I just touch the hem of Hid garment I will be made whole. Yes HE did perform a sign because Jesus healed for the following reasons:

1. love and to meet the need
2. to show HE had Power
3. to Fulfill scriptures
4. To teach the disciples

Why do you limit Jesus >? What authority do you have by which you do so?
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Jesus didn't call her an unbeliever. She had faith. Faith pleases God.

She didn't need a sign.

Jesus & the Apostles never said "As faith to heal will cease in the NT era, construct plenty of hospitals as God can heal only through doctors".
 
S

Sudakar

Banned
#319
Sep 14, 2019
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#319
miknik5 said:
Really? YOu will have to give an account for every idle word sir...
are you sure you are speaking truth?
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healing is clearly included in Christ's atonement as stated in Isaiah 53:4 & emphasised in Mathew 8:17. So if someone is not guaranteed of healing, his faith is little and needs to grow.
 
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