Jesus as the prophesised Christ/Messiah

[Jon_23]

Hello, I would be interested in hearing the argument for Jesus as the prophesised Christ/ Messiah in the Old Testament.

The prophesy that fits his life best and I believe could have actually been him is Isaiah 53, the lamb of God. However if we read closely, we will see that in Isaiah 53:12, it says that the he will only be aloted a portion with the great and divide the spoil with the strong. This is not the equity that the Messiaiah/Christ will receive. Messiaiah will receive equity of command over the entire world. As most of this prophesy fits the life of Jesus of Nazareth. From being despised, not opening his mouth in defence to his accousers, a grave with the rich, through perversion of justice he was taken away etc.
To me, the only part that does not fit the claims of the New Testament, is the equity received by this individual. Isaiah 53:12 is clearly not the equity which will be alotted to Messiaiah. Therefore the lamb of God being Jesus as the best candidate, could not be Messaiah or Christ. To make it simple, Lamb of God (Isaiah 53) cannot be Messaiah/Christ.

Here is list of other Messaianic prophesies and prophecies that the New Testement claim Jesus fulfilled which do not match the life of Jesus.

1 Chronicals 17
Isaiah 7:13
Psalm 132
Isaiah 9:3-7
Psalm 118 5-24
Isaiah 28
Psalm 22
Psalm 34

As the disiples and apostles knew, the fulfilment of the old Testement prophecies were fundemental to their claim of Jesus as the Messaiah.
Please feel free to include these passages listed in the New Testement.

 

[Dave-L]

Hello, I would be interested in hearing the argument for Jesus as the prophesised Christ/ Messiah in the Old Testament.

The prophesy that fits his life best and I believe could have actually been him is Isaiah 53, the lamb of God. However if we read closely, we will see that in Isaiah 53:12, it says that the he will only be aloted a portion with the great and divide the spoil with the strong. This is not the equity that the Messiaiah/Christ will receive. Messiaiah will receive equity of command over the entire world. As most of this prophesy fits the life of Jesus of Nazareth. From being despised, not opening his mouth in defence to his accousers, a grave with the rich, through perversion of justice he was taken away etc.
To me, the only part that does not fit the claims of the New Testament, is the equity received by this individual. Isaiah 53:12 is clearly not the equity which will be alotted to Messiaiah. Therefore the lamb of God being Jesus as the best candidate, could not be Messaiah or Christ. To make it simple, Lamb of God (Isaiah 53) cannot be Messaiah/Christ.

Here is list of other Messaianic prophesies and prophecies that the New Testement claim Jesus fulfilled which do not match the life of Jesus.

1 Chronicals 17
Isaiah 7:13
Psalm 132
Isaiah 9:3-7
Psalm 118 5-24
Isaiah 28
Psalm 22
Psalm 34

As the disiples and apostles knew, the fulfilment of the old Testement prophecies were fundemental to their claim of Jesus as the Messaiah.
Please feel free to include these passages listed in the New Testement.

Did you pray for understanding before forming an opinion on these passages? Some times we trust our own leanings more than God. And are unwilling to study what others linked to the historic church think.

 

[notuptome]

Hello, I would be interested in hearing the argument for Jesus as the prophesised Christ/ Messiah in the Old Testament.

The prophesy that fits his life best and I believe could have actually been him is Isaiah 53, the lamb of God. However if we read closely, we will see that in Isaiah 53:12, it says that the he will only be aloted a portion with the great and divide the spoil with the strong. This is not the equity that the Messiaiah/Christ will receive. Messiaiah will receive equity of command over the entire world. As most of this prophesy fits the life of Jesus of Nazareth. From being despised, not opening his mouth in defence to his accousers, a grave with the rich, through perversion of justice he was taken away etc.
To me, the only part that does not fit the claims of the New Testament, is the equity received by this individual. Isaiah 53:12 is clearly not the equity which will be alotted to Messiaiah. Therefore the lamb of God being Jesus as the best candidate, could not be Messaiah or Christ. To make it simple, Lamb of God (Isaiah 53) cannot be Messaiah/Christ.

Here is list of other Messaianic prophesies and prophecies that the New Testement claim Jesus fulfilled which do not match the life of Jesus.

1 Chronicals 17
Isaiah 7:13
Psalm 132
Isaiah 9:3-7
Psalm 118 5-24
Isaiah 28
Psalm 22
Psalm 34

As the disiples and apostles knew, the fulfilment of the old Testement prophecies were fundemental to their claim of Jesus as the Messaiah.
Please feel free to include these passages listed in the New Testement.

Well as a non-Christian what do you believe of Jesus Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

Hello, I would be interested in hearing the argument for Jesus as the prophesised Christ/ Messiah in the Old Testament.

The prophesy that fits his life best and I believe could have actually been him is Isaiah 53, the lamb of God. However if we read closely, we will see that in Isaiah 53:12, it says that the he will only be aloted a portion with the great and divide the spoil with the strong. This is not the equity that the Messiaiah/Christ will receive. Messiaiah will receive equity of command over the entire world. As most of this prophesy fits the life of Jesus of Nazareth. From being despised, not opening his mouth in defence to his accousers, a grave with the rich, through perversion of justice he was taken away etc.
To me, the only part that does not fit the claims of the New Testament, is the equity received by this individual. Isaiah 53:12 is clearly not the equity which will be alotted to Messiaiah. Therefore the lamb of God being Jesus as the best candidate, could not be Messaiah or Christ. To make it simple, Lamb of God (Isaiah 53) cannot be Messaiah/Christ.

Here is list of other Messaianic prophesies and prophecies that the New Testement claim Jesus fulfilled which do not match the life of Jesus.

1 Chronicals 17
Isaiah 7:13
Psalm 132
Isaiah 9:3-7
Psalm 118 5-24
Isaiah 28
Psalm 22
Psalm 34

As the disiples and apostles knew, the fulfilment of the old Testement prophecies were fundemental to their claim of Jesus as the Messaiah.
Please feel free to include these passages listed in the New Testement.

Welcome to CC, Jon,
Your profile says, "Not Christian" and "09/17" for "When saved". Both cannot be true. Either you're saved and a Christian, or you are neither. If you aren't a Christian, you don't have the Holy Spirit within you, and you will find the Bible, at least in part, incomprehensible, because the Holy Spirit Who gives us the understanding.

Have you read any other translations? Have you looked for other meanings of the words over which you stumble? Or, to put it more directly, is it possible that you simply don't understand how Isaiah 53:12 and the other passages actually were fulfilled by Jesus?

1 Chronicals (sic) 17: the everlasting kingdom of God is established through Jesus, the descendant of David.
Isaiah 7:13: I don't see how this is a prophecy of the Messiah at all.
Psalm 132: which verses?
Isaiah 9:3-7: verses 3-5 describe the freedom that Christians have from sin because of Christ. Is there another issue?
Psalm 118 5-24: verses 22 and 23 are prophetic of the Messiah, and they are fulfilled in Jesus.
Isaiah 28: which verses?
Psalm 22: which verses?
Psalm 34: which verses?

Not everything in the Old Testament is a prophecy about the Messiah. Perhaps if you explain your concern with each specific passage, you'll get the answers you desire.

 

[Jon_23]

Hi, Having been a non-denominational Christian for part of my adult life, it was one of the hardest decisions to make. However, after reading the new Testement, and seeing the importance that the disciples and apostles put on the fulfilment of the old Testement prophecies, I did a cross reference of prophesies in the new Testement with the corisponding old Testement and found that in my opinion they do not fit the discription of the life of Jesus. I would ask you to do the same and let me know what I am not understanding.

I believe that Jesus was the Lamb of God depicted in the prophecy of Isaiah 53. However, the equity alotted to the Lamb of God as stated in Isaiah 53:12 is not the equity that will be granted to the prophesised Messaiah and King of kings who will be granted control over the world and not only alotted a portion with the great.

I believe Jesus' teachings were great especially those pertaining to the non-materialism and the maintenance of the Law of Moses and the commandments (Sabbath) which in brief can be found in Mathew 7:21-23, Mathew 5:17-19, Luke 16:16-17, Revelations 12:17 etc.

Checking other messianic prophecies of the old Testement as well which don't seem to match the life of the Jesus.
Especially Isaiah 28.

Please let me know what Iam missing in my doubts.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[Lightskin]

The passage you are reflecting upon also states, “He bore the sins of many”. Only Jesus can intercede on our behalf regarding sins.

 

[Jon_23]

Hi Dino, thanks for your reply and concern. I'll address 1 Chronicles 17 and the Genealogy of Jesus as stated in Mathew and again in Luke. In Mathew 1 the Genealogy of is traced from Abraham through David and then through to Joseph. As Jesus was born into a vergin, he would then have only the blood of Mary and not Joseph. Therefore not being in the bloodline of Mary.

When we read the Genealogy stated in Luke, we find inconsistencies of people listed than that of the Genealogy of Luke.

Thanks for listing the other prophecies that I had listed. I will address each of them individually.

Again please comment and let me know what Iam not getting.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[Jon_23]

The passage you are reflecting upon also states, “He bore the sins of many”. Only Jesus can intercede on our behalf regarding sins.

Yes, he bore our sins as a sin offering or a sacrificial lamb and perhaps can intercede on our sins but this does not make him the prophesised Messaiah that he is claimed to be. He would have to fulfil prophecies such as Isaiah 42 and 28 which calls for a man who will establish justice on earth.

 

[notuptome]

Yes, he bore our sins as a sin offering or a sacrificial lamb and perhaps can intercede on our sins but this does not make him the prophesised Messaiah that he is claimed to be. He would have to fulfil prophecies such as Isaiah 42 and 28 which calls for a man who will establish justice on earth.

What don't you like about Jesus Christ?

I mean that Jesus Christ demonstrated He was all He claimed to be. Virgin birth, death, burial and bodily resurrection. Why do you wish to continue in your sins and die eternally?

You do know that God is sovereign and does not need your approval for what He does?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jon_23]

The name Yehoshua (Jesus) means "Yahweh (GOD) is salvation" which Jesus teaches us in the sermon on the mount in Mathew 7:21-23

 

[Jon_23]

What don't you like about Jesus Christ?

I mean that Jesus Christ demonstrated He was all He claimed to be. Virgin birth, death, burial and bodily resurrection. Why do you wish to continue in your sins and die eternally?

You do know that God is sovereign and does not need your approval for what He does?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hi Roger,
There isn't anything that I don't like about Jesus. Infact he never really actually claimed to be the Messaiah. (Perhaps briefly in Mark.) What I really like about him is that he taught to Maintain the old Law of Moses specifically the commandments. I feel that many modern Christans have forgotten these commandments especially the sabbath and even Exodus 20:4. I guess I just don't understand People or Christanity's claim that he is the prophesised Messiah as to me he fulfilled the the lamb of God but didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies required.

 

[notuptome]

Hi Roger,
There isn't anything that I don't like about Jesus. Infact he never really actually claimed to be the Messaiah. (Perhaps briefly in Mark.) What I really like about him is that he taught to Maintain the old Law of Moses specifically the commandments. I feel that many modern Christans have forgotten these commandments especially the sabbath and even Exodus 20:4. I guess I just don't understand People or Christanity's claim that he is the prophesised Messiah as to me he fulfilled the the lamb of God but didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies required.

What do you find comforting about the Law which can only condemn?

Do you believe that Jesus is God? Or do you believe that He was only a good man?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Lightskin]

Yes, he bore our sins as a sin offering or a sacrificial lamb and perhaps can intercede on our sins but this does not make him the prophesised Messaiah that he is claimed to be. He would have to fulfil prophecies such as Isaiah 42 and 28 which calls for a man who will establish justice on earth.

Remember, Jesus was crucified, died, buried and was Resurrected.

 

[MattforJesus]

Hello, I would be interested in hearing the argument for Jesus as the prophesised Christ/ Messiah in the Old Testament.

The prophesy that fits his life best and I believe could have actually been him is Isaiah 53, the lamb of God. However if we read closely, we will see that in Isaiah 53:12, it says that the he will only be aloted a portion with the great and divide the spoil with the strong. This is not the equity that the Messiaiah/Christ will receive. Messiaiah will receive equity of command over the entire world. As most of this prophesy fits the life of Jesus of Nazareth. From being despised, not opening his mouth in defence to his accousers, a grave with the rich, through perversion of justice he was taken away etc.
To me, the only part that does not fit the claims of the New Testament, is the equity received by this individual. Isaiah 53:12 is clearly not the equity which will be alotted to Messiaiah. Therefore the lamb of God being Jesus as the best candidate, could not be Messaiah or Christ. To make it simple, Lamb of God (Isaiah 53) cannot be Messaiah/Christ.

Here is list of other Messaianic prophesies and prophecies that the New Testement claim Jesus fulfilled which do not match the life of Jesus.

1 Chronicals 17
Isaiah 7:13
Psalm 132
Isaiah 9:3-7
Psalm 118 5-24
Isaiah 28
Psalm 22
Psalm 34

As the disiples and apostles knew, the fulfilment of the old Testement prophecies were fundemental to their claim of Jesus as the
Messaiah.
Please feel free to include these passages listed in the New Testement.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, so He is God and man, which the Bible says He has no beginning for He is God, and has a beginning as the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the beginning of creation even though He was not born until 4000 years later, for He was the first plan God had before laying down the foundation of the world, the Word of God, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created.

The saints shall rule with Jesus in the millennial reign of Christ, and they will have a glorified body like Jesus.

When the Bible says God shall divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoils among the strong it is speaking of the man Christ Jesus having a portion like all the saints.

And the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

The saints will be greater than the angels, which angels are ministering spirits to the saints, and the angels desire to look in to the salvation of the saints.

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was
no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

 

[Jon_23]

What do you find comforting about the Law which can only condemn?

Do you believe that Jesus is God? Or do you believe that He was only a good man?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hi Roger,
Jesus taught us to keep the Law several times throughout the new Testement. It's not my opinion or something that I use as comfort nessisarily. It's a fact that Jesus taught us to keep the Law. Examples include Luke 16:16-17, Mathew 7:21-23, Revelations 12:17, etc. More examples listed in previous post.

As for Jesus being God himself, this is only stated in the book of John and later by apostles but never a claim by Jesus. As for being the one and only son of God, this is also started in the book of John and forward. This concept comes from 1Chronicals17 and the original promise from Yahweh to David that a decendent of his would become A son to Yahweh(God). And God would become A father to him. - 1 Chronicals 17:13.

As you know Jesus taught his disciples to prey by saying "OUR father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name." That name by the way is Yahweh.

 

[Jon_23]

Remember, Jesus was crucified, died, buried and was Resurrected.

Yes, that was the sacrifice of the lamb and was given a tomb among the rich as Isaiah 53 states.
However the reserection was never a prerequisite of the prophesised Messiah.

 

[Jon_23]

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, so He is God and man, which the Bible says He has no beginning for He is God, and has a beginning as the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the beginning of creation even though He was not born until 4000 years later, for He was the first plan God had before laying down the foundation of the world, the Word of God, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created.

The saints shall rule with Jesus in the millennial reign of Christ, and they will have a glorified body like Jesus.

When the Bible says God shall divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoils among the strong it is speaking of the man Christ Jesus having a portion like all the saints.

And the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

The saints will be greater than the angels, which angels are ministering spirits to the saints, and the angels desire to look in to the salvation of the saints.

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was
no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Hi, As for the claim of Jesus being the spirit of Yahweh (God) in the flesh. In John 14:28, Jesus clearly states himself that "Iam going to the Father because the Father is greater than I." Therefore the claim that the spirit of Jesus is the spirit of God(Yahweh) is impossible. They are clearly two different spirits.

 

[Jon_23]

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, so He is God and man, which the Bible says He has no beginning for He is God, and has a beginning as the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the beginning of creation even though He was not born until 4000 years later, for He was the first plan God had before laying down the foundation of the world, the Word of God, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created.

The saints shall rule with Jesus in the millennial reign of Christ, and they will have a glorified body like Jesus.

When the Bible says God shall divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoils among the strong it is speaking of the man Christ Jesus having a portion like all the saints.

And the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

The saints will be greater than the angels, which angels are ministering spirits to the saints, and the angels desire to look in to the salvation of the saints.

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was
no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

If you mean that the spirit of Yahweh had fallen upon the spirt of the man Jesus as it would have with many prophets. Perhaps.... As the meaning of Yahweh is "Iam what I need to become" that great omnipresent force. But saying that he is the manifestation of God's spirit in the flesh, is clearly denied by Jesus himself in John 14:28

 

[JaumeJ]

If you mean that the spirit of Yahweh had fallen upon the spirt of the man Jesus as it would have with many prophets. Perhaps.... As the meaning of Yahweh is "Iam what I need to become" that great omnipresent force. But saying that he is the manifestation of God's spirit in the flesh, is clearly denied by Jesus himself in John 14:28

Jesus-Yeshua, Yahweh, and the Holy Spirit *Ruach Chodes,! are One.

 

[Jon_23]

Jesus-Yeshua, Yahweh, and the Holy Spirit *Ruach Chodes,! are One.[/QUOTE

Why does Jesus seperate himself from Yahweh in John 14:28 and in the loard's prayer.