Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?
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God the Son - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Son
The phrase "God the Son" is not found in the Bible,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Son
The phrase "God the Son" is not found in the Bible,
That would make Him Son of Man. His mother could say " flesh of my flesh bone of my bone" as Adam said of Eve.
When Jesus died He prayed to His Father " into your hands I commit MY spirit." If that was 'their' spirit, His last words don't make sense.
1 John
this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world
This means the Father eternally begets His Son. He sent His begotten Son into the world.
When Jesus died He prayed to His Father " into your hands I commit MY spirit." If that was 'their' spirit, His last words don't make sense.
1 John
this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world
This means the Father eternally begets His Son. He sent His begotten Son into the world.
Yes, and I have shown you how the Church Fathers explain that:
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
But that absolutely does not make Him GOD the SON!
He, is still part of the Father, not separate on His own.
Nope, because its internal from God Himself and therefore is not separate. It's not like people creating a child and only 1 person births the child that is a life separated from both parents. With God, He removed a part of HIMSELF that was not Created, but already Existed, and then molded that into what He desired it to be.
It's like me removing an organ (kidney), it's something already a part of me, and then giving it purpose to do my will.
Benadam,
Don't forget, I am a Believer and a follower of the One True God who is Triune in how He chooses to deal with His own Creation. But I follow the 325 AD Nicene Creed and the Church Fathers who both led up to that and were a vital part of that. And this is how they explain God:
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
I truly believe you believe as you do because of the English Translation.
I believe as the Church Fathers do, who had the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek (Latin Vulgate and Jerome was not born until 346 AD, some 21 years after the 325 Nicene Creed).
You are a Modern day Trinity Believer, I am old school!
Don't forget, I am a Believer and a follower of the One True God who is Triune in how He chooses to deal with His own Creation. But I follow the 325 AD Nicene Creed and the Church Fathers who both led up to that and were a vital part of that. And this is how they explain God:
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
I truly believe you believe as you do because of the English Translation.
I believe as the Church Fathers do, who had the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek (Latin Vulgate and Jerome was not born until 346 AD, some 21 years after the 325 Nicene Creed).
You are a Modern day Trinity Believer, I am old school!
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This probably explains my views even clearer:
Quote from New Catholic Encyclopedia: The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the fourth Century. Among the Apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective’ Unquote.
The ante-Nicene Fathers we’re acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ’s birth. What they taught is of interest. In summing up the historical evidence Alyan Lamson says in ‘The Church of the First Three Centuries: Quote: The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity ...derives no support from the language of Justin Martyr; and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is; to all Christian writers for
three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and ....Holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.” Unquote.
Quote from New Catholic Encyclopedia: The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the fourth Century. Among the Apostolic Fathers there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective’ Unquote.
The ante-Nicene Fathers we’re acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ’s birth. What they taught is of interest. In summing up the historical evidence Alyan Lamson says in ‘The Church of the First Three Centuries: Quote: The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity ...derives no support from the language of Justin Martyr; and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is; to all Christian writers for
three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and ....Holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.” Unquote.
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But in My Personal View, the Father is 100% God, Yeshua is 100% God, the Holy Spirit is 100% God!
But I see it in this light:
The WORD and the WISDOM (Holy Spirit) are internal from God Himself and therefore is not separate. It's not like people creating a child and only 1 person births the child that is a life separated from both parents. With God, He removed a part of HIMSELF that was not Created, but already Existed, and then molded that into what He desired it to be.
It's like me removing an organ (kidney), it's something already a part of me, and then giving it purpose to do my will.
^
which is all explained by the Church Fathers from this view:
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
.
The Church fathers taught that the second divine person is a true son of the father. There were disputes about procession which separated the Church into east and west. Any bishop teaching that God used a chunk of Himself and shaped it isn't a Father of the Church.
If it were as you say it would have been easy for God to teach. Entering the human family using familial titles would just cause confusion.
The Church fathers taught that the second divine person is a true son of the father. There were disputes about procession which separated the Church into east and west. Any bishop teaching that God used a chunk of Himself and shaped it isn't a Father of the Church.
If it were as you say it would have been easy for God to teach. Entering the human family using familial titles would just cause confusion.
God is nothing like us.
When we define God how we are we are definitely going to view Him wrong!
We need parents to create.
God Creates by speaking.
To think God's WORD is His actual child is beyond reason and borderline ridiculous.
The Holy Spirit also comes from within God, I suppose to YOU that makes the Holy Spirit the WORD's twin
God is nothing like us.
When we define God how we are we are definitely going to view Him wrong!
We need parents to create.
God Creates by speaking.
To think God's WORD is His actual child is beyond reason and borderline ridiculous.
The Holy Spirit also comes from within God, I suppose to YOU that makes the Holy Spirit the WORD's twin
When we define God how we are we are definitely going to view Him wrong!
We need parents to create.
God Creates by speaking.
To think God's WORD is His actual child is beyond reason and borderline ridiculous.
The Holy Spirit also comes from within God, I suppose to YOU that makes the Holy Spirit the WORD's twin
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
See begat His WORD along with His WISDOM.
To YOU, do you now see biological twins?
God is nothing like us.
When we define God how we are we are definitely going to view Him wrong!
We need parents to create.
God Creates by speaking.
To think God's WORD is His actual child is beyond reason and borderline ridiculous.
The Holy Spirit also comes from within God, I suppose to YOU that makes the Holy Spirit the WORD's twin
When we define God how we are we are definitely going to view Him wrong!
We need parents to create.
God Creates by speaking.
To think God's WORD is His actual child is beyond reason and borderline ridiculous.
The Holy Spirit also comes from within God, I suppose to YOU that makes the Holy Spirit the WORD's twin
Hmmm, interesting view.
But it does bring into question of where I have always had issues with modern Trinity.
Your version is that the LOVE between Son and Father resulted in the Holy Spirit. And the theory of God the Son falls in the same chain of thought. According to modern day Trinity, ALL 3 are Equal, existed from day 1, yada yada yada. But in reality, Modern Day Trinity needs the Father first to begat the Son, the Father and Son's LOVE to begat the union of Holy Spirit. Which means, they are not existing from same Beginning Point because One existed to Begat the Son to begat the Union of their Holy Spirit. So modern day trinity's explanation is FULL OF HOLES because they want THREE SEPARATE BODIES WHO HAVE THEIR OWN MIND AND DO THE WILL OF GOD. But that only can happen if ONE IS FIRST TO BEGAT THE OTHER ONE TO FORM THE UNION OF THE THIRD ONE! And that is why Modern Day Trinity is INCORRECT!
Where how I explain it, God removes a portion of Himself and that portion is known as the WORD and WISDOM. But since they are a portion of GOD HIMSELF, they have ALWAYS existed as long as God has been around, which is ETERNAL.
^
Just like me removing my voice box, my voice box has been with me since the moment I was conceived. So, it has always existed with me.
This is why I do not buy modern day Trinity at all! Because their own definition of co-equal is literally IMPOSSIBLE when one has to begat the other one to be a SEPARATE BEING!
Only ONE God, made up and including: His will , His words and His spirit. You too are a "trinity" having a will, words and a spirit, but not a perfect one, nor do we have the ability to separate each part of our being as God can His. The words are subject to accomplish the will, and that is why Jesus can say "my Father is greater than I", and in another, "My Father and I are ONE. The Spirit is the character of the being, in God's case HIS Spirit of Holiness.
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Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.
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If they are not separate, how could Jesus as the Lamb take the scroll out of the right hand of the Father who is sitting on the throne?
another example would be that, after Jesus was baptized and came up out of the water, the sky parted and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, landed on Him and the voice of the Father from heaven said, "This is My Son whom I love. With you I am well pleased." This is another scripture which demonstrates that the Father and the Son are individual beings. The same example can be found when Jesus was on the mountain where after He was transfigured, where a cloud enveloped them and said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!” These verses show individuality.
When Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God, the Jews picked up stones to stone Him because by saying this the Jews said that He was making himself equal with God.
There are many, many more examples that I could list. But these are just something to consider.
Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.
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If they are not separate, how could Jesus as the Lamb take the scroll out of the right hand of the Father who is sitting on the throne?
another example would be that, after Jesus was baptized and came up out of the water, the sky parted and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, landed on Him and the voice of the Father from heaven said, "This is My Son whom I love. With you I am well pleased." This is another scripture which demonstrates that the Father and the Son are individual beings. The same example can be found when Jesus was on the mountain where after He was transfigured, where a cloud enveloped them and said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!” These verses show individuality.
When Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God, the Jews picked up stones to stone Him because by saying this the Jews said that He was making himself equal with God.
There are many, many more examples that I could list. But these are just something to consider.
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