once was, now is not, and yet will come

[Nebuchadnezzer]

I can only go by the language and possibilities given in the word...

A. When John pens Revelation in the late 1st century A.D....the beast...

1. that was <-past tense (already been)

2. is not <-present tense (at that time not present or alive)

3. Shall ascend OUT OF THE PIT<-FUTURE TENSE (yet future advent after being once, then gone)

Only two entities have the title THE (definite article) Son of Perdition

The beast that shall come (man of sin) and JUDAS ISCARIOT that was alive (past tense) IS NOT (present tense) when Revelation penned and with a POSSIBLE FUTURE ADVENT (ascension from the pit, his current location)

NOT SAYIN it is Judas, but the language does fit and I cannot ignore the Greek definite article -->THE

what are you saying? the beast is an individual person? if so is he a religious leader like a clergyman?, or is he a governmental leader like a king?

 

[KJV1611]

OK, the beast is a people or better yet a government. Thanks for chiming in.

There are many beasts in the Bible.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Gotta love how people ignore personal pronouns and definite articles to come to foolish conclusions....!! Geesh

Didn't God In Ezekiel 16 refer to Jerusalem (a people and a government) as a she, an adulterous wife?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

There are many beasts in the Bible.

Yes, I agree. so "the beast" in revelation could be representative of several different governments over time.

 

[KJV1611]

Gotta love how people ignore personal pronouns and definite articles to come to foolish conclusions....!! Geesh

Who is that directed to?

 

[KJV1611]

Yes, I agree. so "the beast" in revelation could be representative of several different governments over time.

There are two women in the Bible. The virtuous woman who represents heavenly Jerusalem and the whore who represents earthly Jerusalem or mystery Babylon. Mystery Babylon is the “fake church”,

The harlot woman rides on a beast which is a religious system, Talmudic Judaism. I think most all governments are controlled by the beast. Israel runs the world right now behind the scenes.

 

[KJV1611]

I would say look at the world and see who carries the harlot church it’s back, that’s the beast. In my opinion it can only be Israel.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

There are two women in the Bible. The virtuous woman who represents heavenly Jerusalem and the whore who represents earthly Jerusalem or mystery Babylon. Mystery Babylon is the “fake church”,

The harlot woman rides on a beast which is a religious system, Talmudic Judaism. I think most all governments are controlled by the beast. Israel runs the world right now behind the scenes.

"Mystery Babylon is the “fake church”", i agree with that statement.

I think you make many good points. but when the jews (israel) rejected there messiah, Jesus, then salvation went to the gentiles (the whole world). the center of israel which is jerusalem was destroyed and therefore god moved his city to the center of the world, Rome.

Why would God keep his city Jersulam when the Jews rejected Jesus, but the gentiles accepted him?
If salvation went to the world and not just israel, then God's city should be in the center of the world, not israel.

Although subtle the Book of Acts points to this by starting in Jersusalem and ending in Rome.

Mystery Babylon is the “fake church”, is Rome.

 

[KJV1611]

"Mystery Babylon is the “fake church”", i agree with that statement.

I think you make many good points. but when the jews (israel) rejected there messiah, Jesus, then salvation went to the gentiles (the whole world). the center of israel which is jerusalem was destroyed and therefore god moved his city to the center of the world, Rome.

Why would God keep his city Jersulam when the Jews rejected Jesus, but the gentiles accepted him?
If salvation went to the world and not just israel, then God's city should be in the center of the world, not israel.

Mystery Babylon is the “fake church”, is Rome.

Rome is a harlot but who was her mother?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Rome is a harlot but who was her mother?

I dont know, who?

 

[dcontroversal]

Didn't God In Ezekiel 16 refer to Jerusalem (a people and a government) as a she, an adulterous wife?

And if she is a she, how can she be a HE?

It utterly amazes me how some constantly contradict themselves while being inconsistent with the words God inspired....She cannot be a He!

 

[dcontroversal]

Didn't God In Ezekiel 16 refer to Jerusalem (a people and a government) as a she, an adulterous wife?

And if she is a she, how can she be a HE?

It utterly amazes me how some constantly contradict themselves with being inconsistent with the words God inspires....She cannot be a He

 

[KJV1611]

I dont know, who?

Talmudic Judaism, Israel. All those ancient religions worshipped the same god under different names.

Osiris, Baal, Bacchus, they’re all the same sun god. They changed Osiris name to Jesus and put a sun disk behind his head and started calling it Roman Catholicism. Catholic priests even wear dagon fish hats.

 

[Benadam]

Originally the Harlot is Jerusalem and the beast she ride is Rome. Together they Crucified Jesus.

The mother of harlots is a person. All the blood ever shed on earth is on her hands. That would be Abel's blood and so she is Eve.

Same with the beast. It's both a government and a person. Not either or but both and.

 

[Dave-L]

So what is the beast? This thread is asking question about the beast.

OK, so I am in the historicist camp, but that doesn't mean we are in agreement on these things.

I am talking about the beast. You and others keep talking about the antichrist.

So There is "man of lawlessness", and there is "the false prophet" and there is "the beast", and there is "the antichrist". The "false prophet" and the "beast" are two separate entities as depicted in Rev 19:20

I believe the "man of lawlessness", "the antichrist" and "the false prophet" are synonymous. OK, they are the papacy. I don't disagree with this.

But the beast is not the false prophet, or the man of lawlessness, or the antichrist.

So what is the beast? This thread is asking question about the beast.

I have my own stance on what the beast is, but would like yours.

Dave L, let us chat some more.

It mentions two beasts. Nero and the Papacy.

 

[Dave-L]

Well the Reformers were SERIOUSLY MISTAKEN. But then again, they were not necessarily focused on Bible prophecies. Their primary goal was to bring the Scriptures and the Gospel to the forefront and establish the Five Solas.

The papacy or the pope cannot possibly be the Antichrist for the simple reason that God limits the reign of the Antichrist to just 3 1/2 years, 42 months, or 1260 days.

You already returned to Rome with your free will beliefs. This is to be expected that you would turn on the Reformers, also Wesley, and the English Baptists, and the C of E too.

Dispensationalism takes symbols literally and has a faulty view of numbers in Revelation.

 

[garee]

Where does this fit into the supposed 7 years of reign (or 3.5 years of reign) of the beast?

Revelation 17:8 - "The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."

The spirit of lies (beast) was revealed to the whole world that God was the father of all nations.

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Revelation 20:3

The Holy Spirit took away that ability to deceive the all the nations . The time period had come when God mocked the Jews that mocked him with their oral traditions. Satan could not longer deceive the whole world of wrestling against flesh and blood. (nation against nation") The time of Jacob trouble for a non converted Jew. same trouble today .No faith. No different than the faithless gentile.

They lost their wolf in sheep clothing revealing that God puts no difference between the flesh of a Jewish nation and the Gentle nations. Making it public again as a sign to the world .

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14: 21-22

The spirt of error fell when the veil was rent and could no longer can deceive all the nations in the same manner as before the reformation and Pentecost .

 

[garee]

It mentions two beasts. Nero and the Papacy.

Those two could be included as those influenced by the spirit of error. There were a legion of antichrists' at the time 1 John was written.

Its not people its lying spirits sent from the father of lies Satan to influence mankind

The same with the two witnesses of God. . The law and the prophets. (sola scriptura) The Spirit of truth apposes the spirit of lies.

Nothing more and nothing less. We walk by faith as Christ works in us.

 

[miknik5]

Yes, I agree. so "the beast" in revelation could be representative of several different governments over time.

And the prophet and the beast were cast into the lake of fire...this scripture in Revelation 19 clearly mentions two...

 

[miknik5]

Those two could be included as those influenced by the spirit of error. There were a legion of antichrists' at the time 1 John was written.

Its not people its lying spirits sent from the father of lies Satan to influence mankind

The same with the two witnesses of God. . The law and the prophets. (sola scriptura) The Spirit of truth apposes the spirit of lies.

Nothing more and nothing less. We walk by faith as Christ works in us.

it is specifically two just as the word of GOD states....

Satan, the great imitator will attempt to imitate the HOLY TRINITY, in an unholy manner...
Satan can not manifest himself fully in one...hence, the false prophet and the antichrist/beast whom he/satan/dragon gives his power to....