Do you still sin?

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oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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After receiving salvation through Jesus Christ, we need the Holy Spirit to walk......
My understanding is very close to yours, but I believe that we receive the Holy Spirit along with New Creaturehood at the moment of Salvation. I see the trouble with new Christians as in not understanding that we must acknowledge and completely yield to the HS that already abides within. Minor point perhaps. Do you believe that receiving the HS comes after salvation?
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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Paul made a very bold statement concerning his present status.
The term "I am" in te Greek is very clear.

1 Tim 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

https://biblehub.com/greek/1510.htm
1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether thepresent tense also has "timeless" implications. For example,1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi . . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as ourlife, bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.
Well, it's good to study like you do but, only to a certain point. When it becomes putting God in a box and making boundaries, it begins to just look like a bunch of human reasoning to me.....a hamster on a wheel going nowhere really fast. :unsure:

It's so much more fun to just love God's Word and sit still and read it, ponder, meditate and ask the Holy Spirit questions - He's The Teacher. It's fun to be like an inquisitive child, eager to have an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying - not what human reasoning is saying.

I've gone the path of human reasoning, it's full of man-made doctrines that only lead to division. Being taught by the Holy Spirit leads to unity in the Body of Christ.

God bless you @cv5 - I always enjoy Bible Trivia with you. You are a joy! :love:(y)
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,895
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My understanding is very close to yours, but I believe that we receive the Holy Spirit along with New Creaturehood at the moment of Salvation. I see the trouble with new Christians as in not understanding that we must acknowledge and completely yield to the HS that already abides within. Minor point perhaps. Do you believe that receiving the HS comes after salvation?
Yes, we definitely receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved and become a new creation in Christ Jesus.

We just fail to understand that we are:

SEALED with the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved - God marks us as His peculiar possession - ownership has changed - we are set apart, taken out of the kingdom of darkness and placed into the Kingdom of Light.

However, we don't have any "power" yet - like a cell phone that has been purchased but, not activated yet.

BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit is receiving the indwelling - the FIRST TIME we are FILLED (empowered) with the Holy Spirit. Like a cell phone, we are now connected to God in such a way we can hear His Voice, talk with Him, receive visions (pics and videos), engage with group chats with God and others by the unity of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit starts flowing and opening scriptures, your spiritual ears open, eyes open, taste opens, touch opens, and your smell opens. We start encountering God in special ways that all line up with scripture but, will disagree with man-made doctrine. lol! :giggle:

The sad part is we can resist, quench, grieve, and neglect the Holy Spirit - when we do, we go from a roaring fire to smoldering coals.

CONTINUALLY FILLED with the Holy Spirit is what we want to eventually grow and mature into. Jesus Christ was FULL of the Holy Spirit while on the Earth and could see and hear His Father in Heaven.

Only when we are filled with the Holy Spirit can we walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. It's a process, we gotta learn how to walk. (I'm still falling down but, I'm getting back up! One day I will run and not faint! :love:(y)

In answer to your question, the sealing, baptizing and continually filling of the Holy Spirit can happen all at once or in stages.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Paul made a very bold statement concerning his present status.
The term "I am" in te Greek is very clear.

1 Tim 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

https://biblehub.com/greek/1510.htm
1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether thepresent tense also has "timeless" implications. For example,1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi . . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as ourlife, bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.
Very good brother, this text came to mind for me as well. I do not agree that you’ve “put God in a box” as another accuses, you’ve simply shown what truth God has revealed about our own nature.

I take comfort in this truth right here, right now, that if Paul himself could say this, then it is encouraging to me.

The Holy Spirit must have intended it to be so. Why? Paul also says in this context that God saved him as a pattern and example of how he saves right in the next verse, and Paul is speaking of both pre and post conversion.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
This verse makes it clear that Paul would not obtain mercy sinning with knowledge and in belief. And to think that Paul continues in sin while writing in all his epistles to saints to live holy would make Paul a hypocrite. And not just sinning infrequently, but in a chief way; nonsense!

Jesus spoke against the Pharisees for being hypocrites (telling others how to live while not living right themselves). Paul would not act contrary to the Lord’s teachings.
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
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The Heresy of Perfectionism

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”

To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance.

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/heresy-perfectionism/
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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@NOV25 - where in the scriptures does God call us "sinners" AFTER we are saved?

True born again believers IN CHRIST are no longer "sinners" because we are "saved."

There is a sin that is unto death => SINNER

There is a sin that is NOT unto death => SAVED
 
Nov 17, 2019
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New Mexico, USA
The Heresy of Perfectionism
I am very disappointed that you have the audacity to copy and paste an entire article written by RC Sproul in order to try and make your case. Although a brilliant commentator on the Christian condition, Sproul is a poor substitute for what YOU are thinking.

Lafftur, in her very positive thread, gives scriptural evidence for her insights, which in no way rises to the occasion of spiritual perfectionism.

I would challenge you to do the same if you are going to refute her claims.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism.
Baloney!

Paul is describing a condition that you will be in trying to serve the Lord in the flesh. The whole discourse starts with this statement, (Romans 7:5) "for when we were in the flesh" - PAST TENSE!

Paul also stated our being in the flesh as PAST TENSE here as well >>> (Ephesians 2:11) "Wherfore remember, that ye being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh..."

Romans 8 makes it clear that a true believer is in the Spirit; and when you are in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

Your total lack of comprehension and belief in these scripture is astounding. But that is the product of a fleshly mind; not so surprising after all.

There's a whole bunch of Christians in a delusional state; remaining carnal by their own choice.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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No, but I have been known to backslide......:unsure::giggle::love:

All my sins have been dealt with and taken away from me by the Blood of Yeshua/Jesus. All my righteousness is filthy rags that I traded with Yeshua/Jesus for His Righteousness which is His Body - I am NOW the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Hallelujah!

I am sealed, baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit. Here's where the FUN begins.....:D

Every day is a choice to love God and follow Him..... it's very easy if I stay FILLED with the Holy Spirit, however, if I neglect the Gift of the Holy Spirit then my flesh gets stronger and I backslide.

Along comes the Accuser of the brethren - "You're NOT SAVED! You're still sinning!"

Be careful, the Accuser is a LIAR!

I need to stir up the Gift of the Holy Spirit daily and throughout the day by singing songs in my heart to God, reading, studying, meditating on Gods Word - the Bible, fellowshiping with other believers, praying, talking with God about everything...... so that I can walk by the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Sin is GONE, but my flesh has to be dealt with so, I take up my cross, deny myself (flesh) and follow Yeshua/Jesus.

Truly, born again believers are NOT sinners anymore.

Sinners are lost and condemned without a Shepherd (Yeshua/Jesus Christ) - they belong to and are blinded by the god of this world which is Satan.

There is NO CONDEMNATION for those that are in Christ Jesus - these are born again saved believers that get into trouble with their flesh because they haven't learned to stir up the Holy Spirit within them - they backslide and wander off and the Good Shepherd herds them back into the flock - they ALWAYS have a Shepherd! :love:(y)
Jesus did not say that those who follow him do not sin.
He said that those who follow and believe in him will not be judged on their sins.
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
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@NOV25 - I'm so sorry, but I'm growing and learning - learning truth is a process. I'm earnestly wanting the truth about sin before salvation, after salvation and how NOT to sin.

I'm tired of contending with sin in my flesh. I want VICTORY! I'm learning that walking by the Spirit is VICTORY and is possible!!!

First, I thought ALL SIN was under the penalty of Death, so there was no way I could still have sin because I have Eternal Life, but now I realize there is a sin that is NOT unto death - now it makes sense that I am still dealing with the sin in my flesh.

No worries, God is well pleased that I am seeking truth about sin. Thanks for being patient with me while I'm searching for Truth! If I'm bothering you, just put me on "Ignore." lol! :love:(y)[/QUOTE]

@DesertWanderer @Micaiah-imla

She's clearly struggling in her understanding of scripture. Instead of retiring to a quiet place, as advised months ago, she has decided to continue in her false teaching, that is in fact rooted in sinless perfectionism. @Lafftur what you've exhibited and admitted to here, and in the prior thread in which you and I started this discussion months ago, is a lack of understanding of scripture by your own admittance, and a clear decision to continue to teach falsely. Prideful? Possibly.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Baloney!

Paul is describing a condition that you will be in trying to serve the Lord in the flesh. The whole discourse starts with this statement, (Romans 7:5) "for when we were in the flesh" - PAST TENSE!

Paul also stated our being in the flesh as PAST TENSE here as well >>> (Ephesians 2:11) "Wherfore remember, that ye being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh..."

Romans 8 makes it clear that a true believer is in the Spirit; and when you are in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

Your total lack of comprehension and belief in these scripture is astounding. But that is the product of a fleshly mind; not so surprising after all.

There's a whole bunch of Christians in a delusional state; remaining carnal by their own choice.
You speak heretical nonsense.
(1 Joh 1:8)
If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Evidently the truth is that you do not have the truth in you.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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You speak heretical nonsense.
(1 Joh 1:8)
If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Evidently the truth is that you do not have the truth in you.
I speak what the scriptures say.

And I do not know why you are quoting 1 John 1:8 to me; I never, ever, stated I have no sin.

All HAVE sinned (past tense).

The question is, do you stop sinning? You can stop sinning if you stop living in and obeying the flesh (Romans 6:16).

I choose to believe what the ENTIRE Bible says; it also says this >>> "These things I write unto you, that ye sin not" (1 John 2:1).

Stop using Bible verses without comparing scripture with scripture, friend.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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Jesus did not say that those who follow him do not sin.
He said that those who follow and believe in him will not be judged on their sins.
Yes, I think everyone does every now and again



Hello @DBurrage and @Sarahbm, :love:

There's been a lot of posts since my Original Post (OP), you don't have to read all of them unless you want to but, I'll sum up what I've learned since my OP.....

There are two types of SIN - one that leads to death and another that does NOT lead to death.

1 John 5:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.



A "Sinner" is committing the sin that leads to death - they desire to sin, are born into Adam with a sinful nature, are NOT saved and have NO Shepherd, belong to the god of this world which is Satan.

A "True Born Again Believer" is committing the sin that does NOT lead to death - they desire to do the works of God, are born into Christ with a new nature-a spiritual nature, they are saved and have a Shepherd, belong to God and are given the Holy Spirit to seal them, indwell and fill them with power to walk by the Spirit so they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh - which they still contend with because their minds have not yet been renewed, even though they now have a new nature.

We're NOT to call ourselves "sinners" anymore, God doesn't call us "sinners" AFTER He saves us.

We're God's children learning how to walk - we fall or stumble and get back up and try to walk again. The more the Holy Spirit renews our minds with giving us understanding of God's Word, we are growing up and learning how to know, love, choose and do the perfect Will of God our Father.

Some Christians want to tell us that we're still "sinners" and will always be "sinners" but, I disagree.

We just need to totally rely on the Holy Spirit to lead us, guide us, teach us, counsel us, comfort us, correct us, instruct us, and teach us HOW TO WALK by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

The flesh has to be killed spiritually - Jesus told us to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him. To follow Him, we got to know HOW TO WALK while carrying our "cross" - the flesh.

@NOV25 - I'm so sorry, but I'm growing and learning - learning truth is a process. I'm earnestly wanting the truth about sin before salvation, after salvation and how NOT to sin.

I'm tired of contending with sin in my flesh. I want VICTORY! I'm learning that walking by the Spirit is VICTORY and is possible!!!

First, I thought ALL SIN was under the penalty of Death, so there was no way I could still have sin because I have Eternal Life, but now I realize there is a sin that is NOT unto death - now it makes sense that I am still dealing with the sin in my flesh.

No worries, God is well pleased that I am seeking truth about sin. Thanks for being patient with me while I'm searching for Truth! If I'm bothering you, just put me on "Ignore." lol!:love:(y)
@DesertWanderer @Micaiah-imla

She's clearly struggling in her understanding of scripture. Instead of retiring to a quiet place, as advised months ago, she has decided to continue in her false teaching, that is in fact rooted in sinless perfectionism. @Lafftur what you've exhibited and admitted to here, and in the prior thread in which you and I started this discussion months ago, is a lack of understanding of scripture by your own admittance, and a clear decision to continue to teach falsely. Prideful? Possibly.[/QUOTE]

@NOV25 - Are you trying to get me to call myself a "sinner"? :unsure:

Do you think God wants me to call myself a "sinner" even AFTER He has saved me? :unsure:

I've agreed there is sin in my flesh but, NOT in my nature - it's GONE! Hallelujah! I no longer am a slave to sin, nor do I desire to sin anymore; however, I do stumble over my flesh when I am not filled with the Holy Spirit.

God in His infinite wisdom left us with our flesh to contend with. He told us to deny ourself, take up our cross and follow Him. The ONLY WAY to do this is to be filled with the Holy Spirit and be taught by the Holy Spirit the Word of God by so doing, our minds become renewed - line upon line, precept upon precept, little by little.

It is possible for us to walk by the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is GOOD NEWS!! :love:(y)
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Hello @DBurrage and @Sarahbm, :love:

There's been a lot of posts since my Original Post (OP), you don't have to read all of them unless you want to but, I'll sum up what I've learned since my OP.....

There are two types of SIN - one that leads to death and another that does NOT lead to death.

1 John 5:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


A "Sinner" is committing the sin that leads to death - they desire to sin, are born into Adam with a sinful nature, are NOT saved and have NO Shepherd, belong to the god of this world which is Satan.

A "True Born Again Believer" is committing the sin that does NOT lead to death - they desire to do the works of God, are born into Christ with a new nature-a spiritual nature, they are saved and have a Shepherd, belong to God and are given the Holy Spirit to seal them, indwell and fill them with power to walk by the Spirit so they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh - which they still contend with because their minds have not yet been renewed, even though they now have a new nature.

We're NOT to call ourselves "sinners" anymore, God doesn't call us "sinners" AFTER He saves us.

We're God's children learning how to walk - we fall or stumble and get back up and try to walk again. The more the Holy Spirit renews our minds with giving us understanding of God's Word, we are growing up and learning how to know, love, choose and do the perfect Will of God our Father.

Some Christians want to tell us that we're still "sinners" and will always be "sinners" but, I disagree.

We just need to totally rely on the Holy Spirit to lead us, guide us, teach us, counsel us, comfort us, correct us, instruct us, and teach us HOW TO WALK by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

The flesh has to be killed spiritually - Jesus told us to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him. To follow Him, we got to know HOW TO WALK while carrying our "cross" - the flesh.



@DesertWanderer @Micaiah-imla

She's clearly struggling in her understanding of scripture. Instead of retiring to a quiet place, as advised months ago, she has decided to continue in her false teaching, that is in fact rooted in sinless perfectionism. @Lafftur what you've exhibited and admitted to here, and in the prior thread in which you and I started this discussion months ago, is a lack of understanding of scripture by your own admittance, and a clear decision to continue to teach falsely. Prideful? Possibly.
@NOV25 - Are you trying to get me to call myself a "sinner"? :unsure:

Do you think God wants me to call myself a "sinner" even AFTER He has saved me? :unsure:

I've agreed there is sin in my flesh but, NOT in my nature - it's GONE! Hallelujah! I no longer am a slave to sin, nor do I desire to sin anymore; however, I do stumble over my flesh when I am not filled with the Holy Spirit.

God in His infinite wisdom left us with our flesh to contend with. He told us to deny ourself, take up our cross and follow Him. The ONLY WAY to do this is to be filled with the Holy Spirit and be taught by the Holy Spirit the Word of God by so doing, our minds become renewed - line upon line, precept upon precept, little by little.

It is possible for us to walk by the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is GOOD NEWS!! :love:(y)[/QUOTE]

I think it's wrong to say that Christians are not sinners.
In order to not be sinners, we must be perfect.
But repentance and belief in Jesus does NOT make us perfect, it simply means we will not be judged on our sins.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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oh man

you ask a question and then answer it yourself.
I dont think anyone ought to deceive themselves if they are still sinning, they ought to confess it to God who will forgive them who will make them righteous again, for many peoole its not a one-off thing where one day you are a sinner and the next day you are a saint. I think its a day by day thing as you walk with Christ,,,or go far way from him.

Another thing people might not realise is how important baptism is (not just sprinkling) and how to abide in Christ so we do not sin.

There are many different types of sins as well so what is a sin someone may be prone to is not a problem for someone else. People do get tempted but its up to us to not give in to temptation with Gods help.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Jesus came to save us from our sin, I guess some people are not yielding to Jesus saving grace...so that they can be free of sin, some people like their sin too much to give it up.

Jesus died instead of you so you could live, but many people may take Jesus sacrifice for granted.