Do you still sin?

[Lafftur]

@NOV25 - Are you trying to get me to call myself a "sinner"?

Do you think God wants me to call myself a "sinner" even AFTER He has saved me?

I've agreed there is sin in my flesh but, NOT in my nature - it's GONE! Hallelujah! I no longer am a slave to sin, nor do I desire to sin anymore; however, I do stumble over my flesh when I am not filled with the Holy Spirit.

God in His infinite wisdom left us with our flesh to contend with. He told us to deny ourself, take up our cross and follow Him. The ONLY WAY to do this is to be filled with the Holy Spirit and be taught by the Holy Spirit the Word of God by so doing, our minds become renewed - line upon line, precept upon precept, little by little.

It is possible for us to walk by the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is GOOD NEWS!!

I think it's wrong to say that Christians are not sinners.
In order to not be sinners, we must be perfect.
But repentance and belief in Jesus does NOT make us perfect, it simply means we will not be judged on our sins.[/QUOTE]

Well, human reasoning tells us that we MUST STILL be "sinners" because we still have this "sin issue" in the flesh that we keep tripping over every time we try to obey God. Ugghh, it can be so frustrating!

This is also why Paul talked about it in Romans 7....."why do I do the things I hate, when I want to do what is right? Oh, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of sin?"

So Paul is asking the question, "Why am I still sinning when I do NOT want to sin?!!"

In Romans 8, he figures it out......it's sin that is NOT unto death because he is saved in Christ - Christ delivers him. There is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST and it is by the Spirit that we obey, NOT in our own strength.

In Christ, we have received the Righteousness of God which is the Human fulfillment of the law.

By receiving the Blood of Jesus, ours sins are taken away and by receiving the Body of Jesus we receive the Righteousness of God. We are made perfect ONLY IN CHRIST.

However, we still need our minds to be renewed by the Holy Spirit and we need the power of the Holy Spirit to obey God and not stumble over our flesh. Renewing the mind is restoring the soul.

This is a lot of information that may be confusing.

 

[DesertWanderer]

Unfortunately, as with most social forums like this, we tend to be lured into a game of semantics. Let's let the word of God speak to us:

—that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ’s faithfulness. Phi 3:9

For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes. Rom. 10:4

God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor. 5:21

If you were to stand up in most churches-- at least in the U.S.-- and declare, "I am the righteousness of God," you would be thrown out into the parking lot so fast, you wouldn't know what happened. What most religious people want to hear is the overly pious statement, "I am a sinner."

But Paul rightly points out that we no longer have to carry the neon sign of "SINNER" around our necks anymore. We have a new title: "The Righteousness of God, Through Christ, Our Lord."

God now looks on us not as sinners, but as Christ in each of us. Halleluja!

I think it is about time we do the same. When we look at ourselves as being fully redeemed, it makes our sin much less palatable to us.

Although the title of this thread is a bit misleading, I believe Lafftur was merely pointing out that we no longer have to hang ourselves on a billboard with the word "SINNER" painted on our foreheads.

Jesus hung on a cross instead.

 

[Lanolin]

maybe its because, in the US people STILL do sin and call themselves christians.

in nz, people are at least honest and dont even say they are christians if they are not.

semantics? well you cannot confess if you are in denial about whatever sin youve comitted!

 

[Lanolin]

the problem with evangelicals is they often dont know what to do after baptism to continue walking with God. In many sermons they are hoping to catch people who havent converted and thats why they want EVERYONE to pray the sinners prayer. Even if you havent sinned.

 

[Lafftur]

Unfortunately, as with most social forums like this, we tend to be lured into a game of semantics. Let's let the word of God speak to us:

—that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ’s faithfulness. Phi 3:9

For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes. Rom. 10:4

God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor. 5:21

If you were to stand up in most churches-- at least in the U.S.-- and declare, "I am the righteousness of God," you would be thrown out into the parking lot so fast, you wouldn't know what happened. What most religious people want to hear is the overly pious statement, "I am a sinner."

But Paul rightly points out that we no longer have to carry the neon sign of "SINNER" around our necks anymore. We have a new title: "The Righteousness of God, Through Christ, Our Lord."

God now looks on us not as sinners, but as Christ in each of us. Halleluja!

I think it is about time we do the same. When we look at ourselves as being fully redeemed, it makes our sin much less palatable to us.

Although the title of this thread is a bit misleading, I believe Lafftur was merely pointing out that we no longer have to hang ourselves on a billboard with the word "SINNER" painted on our foreheads.

Jesus hung on a cross instead.

Hello @DesertWanderer

Yes, absolutely!!!! ALL true born again believers ARE The Righteousness of God IN CHRIST JESUS. Amen.

This GIFT of Salvation and the Righteousness of God is totally and completely the “work of Christ” got us.

Now, the “work of the Holy Spirit” who is on the Earth now.......is to seal, baptize and continually fill every believer in Christ, empower us to be effective witnesses of Christ, and RESTORE OUR SOULS which involves the RENEWING OF OUR MINDS WITH THE WORD OF GOD.

As our minds get renewed by God’s Word and Spirit, we start manifesting as the sons of God in the Earth - walking by the Spirit not by the flesh! Yay!!!

Woohooo!!! Amen. When we walk and not stumble, our Father in Heaven is saying, “Yes! That’s My Child!!”

 

[DorothyMae]

No, but I have been known to backslide......

All my sins have been dealt with and taken away from me by the Blood of Yeshua/Jesus. All my righteousness is filthy rags that I traded with Yeshua/Jesus for His Righteousness which is His Body - I am NOW the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Hallelujah!

I am sealed, baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit. Here's where the FUN begins.....

Every day is a choice to love God and follow Him..... it's very easy if I stay FILLED with the Holy Spirit, however, if I neglect the Gift of the Holy Spirit then my flesh gets stronger and I backslide.

Along comes the Accuser of the brethren - "You're NOT SAVED! You're still sinning!"

Be careful, the Accuser is a LIAR!

I need to stir up the Gift of the Holy Spirit daily and throughout the day by singing songs in my heart to God, reading, studying, meditating on Gods Word - the Bible, fellowshiping with other believers, praying, talking with God about everything...... so that I can walk by the Spirit and NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Sin is GONE, but my flesh has to be dealt with so, I take up my cross, deny myself (flesh) and follow Yeshua/Jesus.

Truly, born again believers are NOT sinners anymore.

Sinners are lost and condemned without a Shepherd (Yeshua/Jesus Christ) - they belong to and are blinded by the god of this world which is Satan.

There is NO CONDEMNATION for those that are in Christ Jesus - these are born again saved believers that get into trouble with their flesh because they haven't learned to stir up the Holy Spirit within them - they backslide and wander off and the Good Shepherd herds them back into the flock - they ALWAYS have a Shepherd!

I was wondering how this would sound if we substituted “sin” with “doing wrong.” This is certainly within the understanding of sin, I assume. And we substitute “righteous” with doing right, which is the biblical definition, “make no mistake, he who does what is right is righteous” then we have balance. (Please don’t accuse me of “works salvation” because I quote the Bible. Accuse the Bible writer if you must accuse.)

So the question becomes, “Do you still do wrong?” The answer becomes, “no, but I still sometimes do wrong” with smiling faces and loving eyes.
Let’s look at this..

All my doing wrong acts have been dealt with and taken away from me by the Blood of Yeshua/Jesus. All my doing right to others is filthy rags that I traded with Yeshua/Jesus for His doing right which is His Body - I am NOW the doing right of God in Christ Jesus. Hallelujah!

There are other statements that look interesting if we apply them to real life:

“Doing wrong is gone.”
“Truly born again believers do not do wrong anymore.”

There’s more but my point is it’s very easy to blithely say you still “sin” with smiling faces. It’s not so funny to those you sin against (do wrong to.) When Christians give themselves an easy time over their doing wrong, it’s because they call it a religious word, “sin.”
Makes it even a smiling matter. If we substituted real wrong, which I only did mildly, it sounds different. Sounds even worse if we substituted some deed we hate when done to us. If I had used “stealing” instead of “doing wrong,” I suspect a smiling face and loving eyes would be differently understood.

 

[Lafftur]

I was wondering how this would sound if we substituted “sin” with “doing wrong.” This is certainly within the understanding of sin, I assume. And we substitute “righteous” with doing right, which is the biblical definition, “make no mistake, he who does what is right is righteous” then we have balance. (Please don’t accuse me of “works salvation” because I quote the Bible. Accuse the Bible writer if you must accuse.)

So the question becomes, “Do you still do wrong?” The answer becomes, “no, but I still sometimes do wrong” with smiling faces and loving eyes.
Let’s look at this..

All my doing wrong acts have been dealt with and taken away from me by the Blood of Yeshua/Jesus. All my doing right to others is filthy rags that I traded with Yeshua/Jesus for His doing right which is His Body - I am NOW the doing right of God in Christ Jesus. Hallelujah!

There are other statements that look interesting if we apply them to real life:

“Doing wrong is gone.”
“Truly born again believers do not do wrong anymore.”

There’s more but my point is it’s very easy to blithely say you still “sin” with smiling faces. It’s not so funny to those you sin against (do wrong to.) When Christians give themselves an easy time over their doing wrong, it’s because they call it a religious word, “sin.”
Makes it even a smiling matter. If we substituted real wrong, which I only did mildly, it sounds different. Sounds even worse if we substituted some deed we hate when done to us. If I had used “stealing” instead of “doing wrong,” I suspect a smiling face and loving eyes would be differently understood.

Changing words around can be fun, interesting and sometimes can help to understand BUT, the focus regarding “sin” is more of a “nature,” “heart” and “mind” issue.

No matter how much we play with “words” we still won’t understand unless we look at the:

- Nature (born that way)
- Heart (love and desires)
- Mind (knowledge, understanding and wisdom)

 

[DorothyMae]

Changing words around can be fun, interesting and sometimes can help to understand BUT, the focus regarding “sin” is more of a “nature,” “heart” and “mind” issue.

I think using examples of sin instead of the benign words brings clarity. It’s an entirely different matter when we are on the other end of someone’s sin. If someone steals your child, we don’t say that this act was not a matter of wrong but more of nature (which is tantamount to saying it’s ok and fairly normal.) We speak of sin blithely we are always speaking of the sin we do, never the sin of others we suffer.

No matter how much we play with “words” we still won’t understand unless we look at the:

- Nature (born that way)
- Heart (love and desires)
- Mind (knowledge, understanding and wisdom)

Actually, here I disagree. We still won’t understand sin even if we do look at heart, nature and mind until we experience what sin means to the victim of sin. A man who made his wealth stealing from others will only understand the violation and pain of being the victim of stealing when he experiences having that which is very valuable to him being stolen. Until then it’s just benign theory.

I’ve talked to many a believer who freely says that they sin with no regret or hint of concern who reacted very strongly when they felt sinned against.

 

[Lafftur]

I think using examples of sin instead of the benign words brings clarity. It’s an entirely different matter when we are on the other end of someone’s sin. If someone steals your child, we don’t say that this act was not a matter of wrong but more of nature (which is tantamount to saying it’s ok and fairly normal.) We speak of sin blithely we are always speaking of the sin we do, never the sin of others we suffer.

Actually, here I disagree. We still won’t understand sin even if we do look at heart, nature and mind until we experience what sin means to the victim of sin. A man who made his wealth stealing from others will only understand the violation and pain of being the victim of stealing when he experiences having that which is very valuable to him being stolen. Until then it’s just benign theory.

I’ve talked to many a believer who freely says that they sin with no regret or hint of concern who reacted very strongly when they felt sinned against.

You and I are talking about two different aspects of sin...

You’re focus is on how sin impacts others negatively. Sin always hurts others in various degrees.

I’m focused on the difference of sin in a believer’s life before saved verses after saved and how they are two different “natures” and that the heart and mind are involved.

To not be judgmental or critical of others when they sin against us - either on purpose or accident is helpful in forgiving them.

Forgiveness is not easy but, it is possible and the only way to be free.

 

[DorothyMae]

You and I are talking about two different aspects of sin...

You’re focus is on how sin impacts others negatively. Sin always hurts others in various degrees.

I’m focused on the difference of sin in a believer’s life before saved verses after saved and how they are two different “natures” and that the heart and mind are involved.

To not be judgmental or critical of others when they sin against us - either on purpose or accident is helpful in forgiving them.

Forgiveness is not easy but, it is possible and the only way to be free.

I don’t actually see a difference and am pretty sure God doesn’t see a difference either same as a mother wouldn’t see a difference in the injury one of her children wrongly did to another whether they were believers in christ or not. The child hurting because of the wrong done by the other speaks louder than theories about the wrong done that remove it from the pain actually experienced. That the perpetrator supposedly has a new nature doesn’t comfort the one weeping nor does God see the offense as less serious.

 

[Lafftur]

I don’t actually see a difference and am pretty sure God doesn’t see a difference either same as a mother wouldn’t see a difference in the injury one of her children wrongly did to another whether they were believers in christ or not. The child hurting because of the wrong done by the other speaks louder than theories about the wrong done that remove it from the pain actually experienced. That the perpetrator supposedly has a new nature doesn’t comfort the one weeping nor does God see the offense as less serious.

A mother of two children that one has terribly hurt the other child also hurts the mother's heart, however, forgiveness can heal all the emotional painful wounds and restore the relationship.

The mother rejoices over her children when they are reconciled and the painful offenses stop.

I've been reading an absolutely fantastic book called "How to Stop the Pain" by James Richards because I am currently dealing with an unforgiving heart over offense. It sounds like you, too are struggling with the pain of a terrible offense.

@DorothyMae, I've learned that offenses MUST come, all people - saved and unsaved and even our own selves are going to sin against us - mostly by accident but, sometimes on purpose.

The flesh only sees itself, not others. When these offenses come, we are NOT to judge or be critical, instead we are to observe the action and know if it was right or wrong but, NEVER judge the "WHY" they did what they did. When we think we know "WHY" they did what they did, we enter into judgment and being judgmental creates MORE pain for us. ONLY God knows "WHY" someone did what they did because ONLY God knows their "nature," "heart," and "mind."

We need to learn how to confront in a godly way that does NOT condemn them but, rather seeks to understand what was done and make them aware of the pain it caused us and hopefully create an atmosphere that is not defensive but brings forgiveness and understanding and healing.

Dear Heavenly Father,

Help us to forgive ourselves and others when we sin in our flesh or they do. Help us to be filled with the Holy Spirit so we can walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Renew our minds with Your Holy Spirit and Word. We desire to walk in Your wisdom and love. Help us Father, in Jesus' Name, amen.

 

[NOV25]

Unfortunately, as with most social forums like this, we tend to be lured into a game of semantics. Let's let the word of God speak to us:

—that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ’s faithfulness. Phi 3:9

For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes. Rom. 10:4

God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor. 5:21

If you were to stand up in most churches-- at least in the U.S.-- and declare, "I am the righteousness of God," you would be thrown out into the parking lot so fast, you wouldn't know what happened. What most religious people want to hear is the overly pious statement, "I am a sinner."

But Paul rightly points out that we no longer have to carry the neon sign of "SINNER" around our necks anymore. We have a new title: "The Righteousness of God, Through Christ, Our Lord."

God now looks on us not as sinners, but as Christ in each of us. Halleluja!

I think it is about time we do the same. When we look at ourselves as being fully redeemed, it makes our sin much less palatable to us.

Although the title of this thread is a bit misleading, I believe Lafftur was merely pointing out that we no longer have to hang ourselves on a billboard with the word "SINNER" painted on our foreheads.

Jesus hung on a cross instead.

Perhaps you should take some time and read the prior 16 pages of posts, your partial view of the conversation is leading you to false assumption. She is in fact teaching that one can obtain sinlessness, aka sinless perfectionism, although I'm pretty sure she wasn't aware that phrase existed when she started this thread. We've patiently watched as she's publicly dizzied herself among the waves of doctrine, tossed to and fro between sinless, sinner and "sinner but not the deadly kind of sin" only to pridefully come back full circle to sinlessness.

@Lafftur Again, if you are honestly seeking the truth on this matter I recommend starting with a good study of the fall, justification, the atonement, sanctification and glorification. The Holy Spirit is not a super mario mushroom that can power you up to sinlessness while you remain in the flesh. You are a sinner, all sin is deadly, you will die, however if the Holy Spirit does dwell in you; He will raise you.

So, the question is does the Holy Spirit dwell in you?

 

[Magenta]

The Heresy of Perfectionism

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in. snipped

Properly defining the word "perfect" is a good place to start... otherwise people end up in error

 

[DorothyMae]

A mother of two children that one has terribly hurt the other child also hurts the mother's heart, however, forgiveness can heal all the emotional painful wounds and restore the relationship.

That doesn’t change the wrong done. That is beside the point, the point being the wrong done is not made less by saying the perpetrator has a “new” nature.

I've been reading an absolutely fantastic book called "How to Stop the Pain" by James Richards because I am currently dealing with an unforgiving heart over offense. It sounds like you, too are struggling with the pain of a terrible offense.

Nice thought and I appreciate your kindness, but I don’t say what I do because of personal offense but because it’s true. Yes, forgiveness is the answer but it doesn’t mean the offense is less wrong.

@DorothyMae, I've learned that offenses MUST come, all people - saved and unsaved and even our own selves are going to sin against us - mostly by accident but, sometimes on purpose.

This is again making light of sin. It is clearer if we name the sin, such as stealing. If we say that “all people steal and we are going to steal, mostly by accident” we see how wrong the thought is. We don’t steal or slander others or abuse others by accident. If an offense is By accident, is not likely a sin. Sin is intentional. I just don’t take sin lightly and think taking it seriously helps us not do it.

The flesh only sees itself, not others. When these offenses come, we are NOT to judge or be critical, instead we are to observe the action and know if it was right or wrong but, NEVER judge the "WHY" they did what they did. When we think we know "WHY" they did what they did, we enter into judgment and being judgmental creates MORE pain for us. ONLY God knows "WHY" someone did what they did because ONLY God knows their "nature," "heart," and "mind."

I don’t see where knowing the why creates more hurt. The apostles knew the why of sin in others.

Don’t you think judging more like is giving a final verdict like saying a person IS something bad? If a person A says something cruel because they’re frustrate, can’t person B say, “that’s cruel, and I know you’re frustrated but still that’s cruel” and not be judging? Isn’t judging saying, “you’re a cruel person?” See what I mean?

We need to learn how to confront in a godly way that does NOT condemn them but, rather seeks to understand what was done and make them aware of the pain it caused us and hopefully create an atmosphere that is not defensive but brings forgiveness and understanding and healing.

Absolutely and I very much agree. Wise words.

 

[Lafftur]

Perhaps you should take some time and read the prior 16 pages of posts, your partial view of the conversation is leading you to false assumption. She is in fact teaching that one can obtain sinlessness, aka sinless perfectionism, although I'm pretty sure she wasn't aware that phrase existed when she started this thread. We've patiently watched as she's publicly dizzied herself among the waves of doctrine, tossed to and fro between sinless, sinner and "sinner but not the deadly kind of sin" only to pridefully come back full circle to sinlessness.

@Lafftur Again, if you are honestly seeking the truth on this matter I recommend starting with a good study of the fall, justification, the atonement, sanctification and glorification. The Holy Spirit is not a super mario mushroom that can power you up to sinlessness while you remain in the flesh. You are a sinner, all sin is deadly, you will die, however if the Holy Spirit does dwell in you; He will raise you.

So, the question is does the Holy Spirit dwell in you?

@NOV25 - it amazes me how determined you are to judge and condemn me......

As a true born again believer you have a new nature. It’s a “spiritual nature” IN CHRIST. The old “sinful nature” IN ADAM is GONE.

Our hearts now desire God’s ways. God writes His law upon our hearts now and we are taught by God.

Our minds are not instantly new like our nature and heart, our mind has to be renewed with God’s Holy Spirit and God’s Word - line upon line, precept upon precept.

The Holy Spirit is opening the scriptures to us and teaching us - it’s absolutely wonderful and so life-giving to be taught by God.

If we’re full of pride and think we can read the Bible and understand without admitting our dependency on God’s Holy Spirit, then we’ll just end up creating more man-made doctrines and theology that only divide us and gives no life to the hearers - only bondage.

Since I started this thread I have had to search the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit A LOT of questions - He is our Teacher, by the way and loves it when we ask Him questions.

I’ve learned a lot. I’m realizing we are NOT to call ourselves “sinners” anymore - God does NOT like it when we call ourselves “sinners” AFTER He saves us.

I have also learned that when God is judging sin in the saved and unsaved, He is looking at three things:

1- Nature - Is the person born “in Adam” or “in Christ”?

2-What is the desire and condition of their heart - is it seeking God?

3-How much is their mind renewed, how much knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God do they have?

Our Father in Heaven will chastise us and we can learn obedience by the things we suffer because He loves us! Yay!!

We learn to desire to be filled with the Holy Spirit more and more because that’s how we walk in obedience- by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

After being saved, we are born again and now God’s little children learning how to walk pleasing in His sight - walking by the Spirit.

 

[DorothyMae]

@NOV25 - it amazes me how determined you are to judge and condemn me......

As a true born again believer you have a new nature. It’s a “spiritual nature” IN CHRIST. The old “sinful nature” IN ADAM is GONE.

Our hearts now desire God’s ways. God writes His law upon our hearts now and we are taught by God.

Our minds are not instantly new like our nature and heart, our mind has to be renewed with God’s Holy Spirit and God’s Word - line upon line, precept upon precept.

The Holy Spirit is opening the scriptures to us and teaching us - it’s absolutely wonderful and so life-giving to be taught by God.

If we’re full of pride and think we can read the Bible and understand without admitting our dependency on God’s Holy Spirit, then we’ll just end up creating more man-made doctrines and theology that only divide us and gives no life to the hearers - only bondage.

Since I started this thread I have had to search the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit A LOT of questions - He is our Teacher, by the way and loves it when we ask Him questions.

I’ve learned a lot. I’m realizing we are NOT to call ourselves “sinners” anymore - God does NOT like it when we call ourselves “sinners” AFTER He saves us.

I have also learned that when God is judging sin in the saved and unsaved, He is looking at three things:

1- Nature - Is the person born “in Adam” or “in Christ”?

2-What is the desire and condition of their heart - is it seeking God?

3-How much is their mind renewed, how much knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God do they have?

Our Father in Heaven will chastise us and we can learn obedience by the things we suffer because He loves us! Yay!!

We learn to desire to be filled with the Holy Spirit more and more because that’s how we walk in obedience- by the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

After being saved, we are born again and now God’s little children learning how to walk pleasing in His sight - walking by the Spirit.

It is hard to know where to begin with the above post. First, if you claim the Holy Spirit is teaching you, then we as the rest of the people of God are required to judge your words whether they be of God or not. This is both the Old and New Testament requirement. If one gives their opinion and says so, then we are free from judging. But if they claim divine authority, then we are required to judge. So you ought to be careful in claiming God Himself is teaching you what you think and write. I know you in particular wrote against judging but in this case, the case of claiming divine origin, we are obligated to judge. I can provide the scriptures.

Now being so obligated to judge your words (not you) I find that they are not in line with what anyone in the Bible taught. He who sins is a sinner. Does not matter if we have and will again receive forgiveness. Does not make us not sinners. God does not judge the believer's stealing different than the unbeliever's. This is because it is exactly the same for the victim. Those who sin are not at all seeking God at that moment and if enough, not at all, even if they once were or said they were. The level of the wisdom of GOd is seen in the lack of sin in their lives. There is no need for GOd to try to figure that out.

The things above are not pleasing to HIm at all but candy coat doing wrong to others that GOd hates. And make no mistake, God hates sin. IF we refuse to call our sin "sin" and what we are for doing that sin, it is pride pure and no grace will be given to us to defeat it in our lives for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

 

[Reformyourself]

If we say we have no sin we are liars, yet those who commit sin are of the devil?

This is one of those texts that have puzzled many, does anyone here have a good explanation?? I have heard some good some bad, from both sides. I have heard some say it means one sin and you're of the devil, which I believe is ridicilous when we look at the totality of the Bible. I have heard others say it means the born again man inside of us is sinless and thats what its talking about, but that also doesnt make sense because it says He that committeth sin, implying a possibility TO sin.

Anyone have any other explanations?

My personal view is that its talking about "In general" as the Scriptures often do, for example, Judas said why dont we give this money to the poor, yet in some gospels its rendered as "disciples", its just their way of speaking.

We have been given a choice, to serve God or serve the devil (Wesley). I still sin😔

 

[Reformyourself]

Yes you are ... but at least you have one redeeming quality .... you are honest!!

And you have a beautiful dog 🐶

 

[Lafftur]

DorothyMae - it is wonderful to discuss this topic with you! I'm enjoying the challenging conversation! You bring up excellent points.

That doesn’t change the wrong done. That is beside the point, the point being the wrong done is not made less by saying the perpetrator has a “new” nature.
[/QUOTE]

True, the wrong done (sin) is not made less by understanding the perpetrator is born again "in Christ" with a "new nature." However, they were probably walking in their flesh when they sinned against us. We now have a choice - do we respond to them in our flesh or by the Spirit.....

If our flesh responds, we'll just end up sinning against them, too. The best choice is to respond by the Spirit. They need our forgiveness and we can take our pain that they caused us to God and ask Him for recompense and/or help to forgive our brother or sister in Christ.

Responding by the Spirit becomes more and more possible the more our minds are renewed in the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of God and by being filled with God's Holy Spirit - let the Spirit lead.

Yes, forgiveness is the answer but it doesn’t mean the offense is less wrong.
[/QUOTE]

All sin/offense is wrong and nothing makes it less wrong.

However, God is Judge - He can recompense us. All judgment belongs to Him - vengeance is His alone. He has made it clear what we are to do........ love our enemies, pray for those who despitefully use us and say all manner of evil against us.....we are like lambs lead to the slaughter.

We're not victims, anything we suffer is actually for our good - martyrs get a special crown, there is great reward for suffering for righteousness' sake. The greater the suffering - the greater the reward.

There is horrific injustice in the world, none of it surprises us. This is not God's World or Kingdom - His is soon to come! Even so, Lord Jesus come quickly!!!! Hallelujah!

This is again making light of sin. It is clearer if we name the sin, such as stealing. If we say that “all people steal and we are going to steal, mostly by accident” we see how wrong the thought is. We don’t steal or slander others or abuse others by accident. [/QUOTE]

People are always trying to put all kinds of "labels" on "sin" but, sin is sin, even if by accident or unintentional.

If an offense is By accident, is not likely a sin. Sin is intentional.
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If a true born again believer is walking by the Spirit (NOT the flesh), I do not think they would even commit UNintentional sin or accidental sin.

UNintentional sin or accidental sin just means the person's "heart" and "mind" did not desire or plan to sin, they did it ignorantly - perhaps they thought they were helping. Walking by the Spirit is not being "ignorant."

I just don’t take sin lightly and think taking it seriously helps us not do it.
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True, as believers we take sin seriously and do not desire to sin anymore. We now have a new nature - a "spiritual nature" and "heart" that hates sin yet, loves God's Mercy more than Judgment. We've been given the "ministry of reconciliation."

I don’t see where knowing the why creates more hurt. The apostles knew the why of sin in others.
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The flesh wants to judge and condemn and in it's pride thinks it knows "WHY" someone did an offense but, the flesh is blind to Truth and only God and/or His Holy Spirit can correctly judge anyone or any circumstance. Any judgments the apostles made were by the Spirit.

Don’t you think judging more like is giving a final verdict like saying a person IS something bad? If a person A says something cruel because they’re frustrate, can’t person B say, “that’s cruel, and I know you’re frustrated but still that’s cruel” and not be judging? Isn’t judging saying, “you’re a cruel person?” See what I mean?

Excellent! The example you gave shows how to observe and confront WITHOUT judging or condemning the person!

I would leave out the "I know you're frustrated..." part unless they actually said they were frustrated. It's best to just state the facts and let the person say what they are feeling or thinking.

Another approach could be, "Whoa! Those words that just came out of your mouth were very cruel and hurt me. Tell me what's going on?"

Note: I have confronted with just the facts and stated that I am hurt and asked them to explain. I made no accusations or name calling.

Absolutely and I very much agree. Wise words.
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Yay!!! We agreed on something......how wonderful!!

 

[Lafftur]

It is hard to know where to begin with the above post. First, if you claim the Holy Spirit is teaching you, then we as the rest of the people of God are required to judge your words whether they be of God or not. This is both the Old and New Testament requirement. If one gives their opinion and says so, then we are free from judging. But if they claim divine authority, then we are required to judge. So you ought to be careful in claiming God Himself is teaching you what you think and write. I know you in particular wrote against judging but in this case, the case of claiming divine origin, we are obligated to judge. I can provide the scriptures.

Oh DorothyMae, the anointing of the Holy Spirit that dwells within EVERY believer teaches them. We don't have to run to commentaries or man-made doctrines to understand scripture. Every word a pastor/preacher/priest/rabbi/bible teacher/anyone speaks is not to be believed unless the Holy Spirit in us bears witness that it is TRUE.

The Holy Spirit teaches ALL of us the TRUTH of God's Word, if we have an ear to hear......which all true born again believers do because we heard and believed the GOSPEL unto Salvation IN CHRIST ALONE. We knew it was TRUE even though the world says it's a lie and we're crazy Christians.

1 John 2:27 (KJV)
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Now being so obligated to judge your words (not you) I find that they are not in line with what anyone in the Bible taught. He who sins is a sinner. Does not matter if we have and will again receive forgiveness. Does not make us not sinners. God does not judge the believer's stealing different than the unbeliever's. This is because it is exactly the same for the victim. Those who sin are not at all seeking God at that moment and if enough, not at all, even if they once were or said they were. The level of the wisdom of GOd is seen in the lack of sin in their lives. There is no need for GOd to try to figure that out.

The things above are not pleasing to HIm at all but candy coat doing wrong to others that GOd hates. And make no mistake, God hates sin. IF we refuse to call our sin "sin" and what we are for doing that sin, it is pride pure and no grace will be given to us to defeat it in our lives for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

The word "VICTIM" seems to be reoccurring in your posts.....I hope you're okay and all is well with you! You are loved dearly by God and there is NO HURT or WRONG done to us that GOD cannot HEAL, if we let him.

The first step is to give up all rights to judging and/or condemning others. Take all our pain and suffering to God and ask Him for recompense and/or healing. He has promised to hear the brokenhearted and heal us.

It's okay for you and I to not agree, no harm done. We can still have love in our hearts for each other. God bless you, DorothyMae.