Why Are Faith, Works and Salvation So Hard to Agree Upon?

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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#21
Even the Bible says that the gentiles have a law unto themselves. We call that the moral law.

It is a philosophy built around the words, predestined or elect. Instead of harmony, every scripture has to fit the interpretation they have given to those words.

This ultimately eliminates choice, free will, or any invitation to all who would believe.

I believe it is all within the foreknowledge of God. Who the elect would be and predestined through God's redemption plan that was destined before time.

But yes there are many Calvinist, Lutheran, Augustin calvinist on this site. 5 point calvinist or I have met some who only hold 1 point. I still see them as brothers and sisters in Christ but disagree on their conclusion.

With out choice all you are left with is God chose most to go to Hell because scripture says the road to destruction is wide and many enter through it. While God elects a few to save.
The foreknowledge of God was not that he foreknew who would seek him. Quite the contrary. God by his foreknowledge saw that no one would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2. This is why he choose an elect people out of corrupted mankind to be born again by his sovereign grace, without the help of man. The elect that he choose are the ones that he gave to Jesus to die for, John 6:37.

All scriptures must harmonize if you interpret them right.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#22
We are saved by faith alone, and not by works.

For when we first confess Christ we have not received the Spirit yet, so we are in the flesh, so it can only be by faith alone, and none of our works can save us.

Nobody receives the Spirit before they confess Christ, but it is after we confess Christ, and repent of our sins that we receive the Spirit.

So we are in the flesh when we first confess Christ, so we can only be saved by faith alone, and not by works.

But when we receive the Spirit then the responsibility falls on us to want to be Christlike, and we have to make that choice to be Christlike, for the Spirit will not twist our arm to do right, but will guide us.

And the Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh.

And God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able to handle, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it, so they are not tempted as hard as the world.

So there is no excuse why a saint cannot abstain from sin, and if there is no excuse then it is required.

For God is not going to say you have salvation when you held unto sin when by the Spirit you can abstain from sin.

Which is why Jesus said the people that could not dwell with Him were workers of iniquity.

Which they have a form of godliness, but deny the Spirit leading them, and hold unto sin and believe they have salvation having an excuse, and ever learning, and never able to come to the truth, which the Bible says turn away from them for their hypocrisy gives blame to the ministry.

Which if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth there is no more sacrifice, which if we hold unto sin after we know God hates sin then the blood of Jesus cannot wash it away.

Which the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

And awake to righteousness, and sin not, but some do not have the knowledge of God.

If a person sins they should have the right attitude that sin separates them from God, and repent of it, and get rid of it, and be sincere, and move forward in the Spirit.

Which Jesus said any person having put their hand to the plow looking back is not fit for the kingdom of God.

Remember Lot's wife.

Paul said that out of faith, hope, and charity, charity is the greatest.

And faith works by love.

Love is greater than faith, and faith works by love.

It is not faith alone, but love alone, which we can do perfectly by the Spirit.

No love, no faith.

Which Paul said love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sin by the Spirit.

Which Paul said he keeps under his body keeping the body in control to be Christlike, for if he did not he would be a castaway.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

And if they do not have charity they have erred from the faith.

James said if they do not have charity then their faith is dead, and a person is justified by works and not faith alone.

John said if they do not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them, so do not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed, works, and in truth.

We are saved by faith alone, and not by works when we first confess Christ.

When we receive the Spirit love is greater than faith, and has to be done in works, and a person is justified by works and not faith alone.

But there is millions of people that hold unto sin, and love money, and material things, prosperity gospel, neglecting the poor and needy, and then think faith will save them.

But that is not love, and love is greater than faith.

Faith and hope are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever.
When we are spiritually dead we do not have spiritual faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit 5:22. It is Jesus's faith that saves us, eternally and not our faith.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
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#23
When we are spiritually dead we do not have spiritual faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit 5:22. It is Jesus's faith that saves us, eternally and not our faith.
Two words for faith.
Pistis- All Spiritual.
Pisteuo- the act of spiritual persuasion, human belief.

Scriptures carry different Greek Words for faith and believe.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
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#24
Paul says, “But the natural man receiveth, not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so, the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)

“But if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Corinthians 4:3–4 (KJV 1900)
1 Corinthians explains a believer's enrichment once the Spirit has entered. To claim this as total depravity one has to ignore all the scriptures I posted and scriptures that say God draws all to Himself but it is out of unbelief that by their own will they reject it.

2 Corinthians 3:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.

Believe not has a direct relationship with the god of this world aka Satan. They chose to put a veil over their face just as Paul described how Moses did. These people Paul was referring to was the one's who heard the Gospel and rejected it. Paul was saying now it is only by God that His light can penetrate their soul.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
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#25
The foreknowledge of God was not that he foreknew who would seek him. Quite the contrary. God by his foreknowledge saw that no one would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2. This is why he choose an elect people out of corrupted mankind to be born again by his sovereign grace, without the help of man. The elect that he choose are the ones that he gave to Jesus to die for, John 6:37.

All scriptures must harmonize if you interpret them right.
All Scripture does harmonize I agree but that involves correct interpretation.

God before time saw no one would seek Him. True. As to why God chose.what we call a theistic approach. Out of God's foreknowledge was the whole reason God predestined a way to salvation. Romans 1 and 2 both speak on how God works within mankind so that ALL are without excuse. God has to work within mankind or none would choose God. But I don't build my whole theology on the words elect of predestined. They indeed need to be harmonized with all of Scripture.

Do you have free will?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#26
1 Corinthians explains a believer's enrichment once the Spirit has entered. To claim this as total depravity one has to ignore all the scriptures I posted and scriptures that say God draws all to Himself but it is out of unbelief that by their own will they reject it.

2 Corinthians 3:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.

Believe not has a direct relationship with the god of this world aka Satan. They chose to put a veil over their face just as Paul described how Moses did. These people Paul was referring to was the one's who heard the Gospel and rejected it. Paul was saying now it is only by God that His light can penetrate their soul.
If you are not totally depraved, stop having impure thoughts and imaginations. Control your tongue which James says you are not free to do. Choose not to get sick and die. All of that comes from sin.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
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#27
If you are not totally depraved, stop having impure thoughts and imaginations. Control your tongue which James says you are not free to do. Choose not to get sick and die. All of that comes from sin.
Then why you as a believer still sin even after having the Spirit in you? Death or sickness isn't of salvation. We are still in a fallen world. What we do with God here on Earth determines out eternal destination.

Free will doesn't stop once you believe.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#28
Then why you as a believer still sin even after having the Spirit in you? Death or sickness isn't of salvation. We are still in a fallen world. What we do with God here on Earth determines out eternal destination.

Free will doesn't stop once you believe.
Free will doesn't start until God gives the new birth to those who cannot believe.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#29
Then why you as a believer still sin even after having the Spirit in you? Death or sickness isn't of salvation. We are still in a fallen world. What we do with God here on Earth determines out eternal destination.

Free will doesn't stop once you believe.
God designed a will according to the letter of the law death .Mankind fell when they did the will of another spirit, another god, another Christ (teacher)

God is not served by corrupted human hands .He can move a unbeliever to bring the gospel as well as one that does believe. We plant and water the born again he moves to cause growth if any.

He works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. Job informs us he is of one mind
and always does what so ever His soul pleases. For he performs that which he appoints to us with us (Emanuel) It is he that can make our hearts soft when we do mix faith with the temporal things seen.

Why murmur if it is God working in us? Need privacy isolation ? Jesus did not murmur when he said; "not as I will but as my father in heaven wills from heaven"

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:Philipians 2: 13-14

It becomes will you work the the will of God as it works in us? Or the will of; "surely you will not die" .God is a liar.

Ssssssssss on your belly no walking as understanding coming from the snake . Just the beautiful feet of those who perform His will bringing the gospel .
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#30
You cannot have spiritual faith unless you have already been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
That is the exact reverse of the true Gospel. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel).

Your bizarre doctrine would have God give the gift of the Holy Spirit to unrepentant and unbelieving sinners. But Acts 2:38 FLATLY REFUTES your doctrine.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#31
That is the exact reverse of the true Gospel. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel).

Your bizarre doctrine would have God give the gift of the Holy Spirit to unrepentant and unbelieving sinners. But Acts 2:38 FLATLY REFUTES your doctrine.
The word of God turns us so that we might in return, turn to Him. He does the first work and the last . If we begin with the hearing of His Faith working in us .he will not desert us but finish the work

Without the faith of Christ, the faith of God working in us no man could please the father.

The kind of faith that comes by hearing the "understanding" of another .

We cannot offer our faithless (natural man) interpretation after the imaginations of a heart toward Him .

That is considered dead faith. The things we do outwardly. We have no life coming from the corrupted flesh. It reveals those who do crucify Christ over and over every time they repent in self edification .They not being turned by God but in respect to their flesh .

Hebrews 6 King James Version (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

In that way self edification he provides better things. Things that accompany salvation to the believer who does not offer dead works over and over.

He promises us he will not forget the good works he worked with us . No need for self edification (dead works) rather that walking by faith that comes from God . . towards us

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Hebrews 6:9-10
 
May 23, 2020
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#36
The foreknowledge of God was not that he foreknew who would seek him. Quite the contrary. God by his foreknowledge saw that no one would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2. This is why he choose an elect people out of corrupted mankind to be born again by his sovereign grace, without the help of man. The elect that he choose are the ones that he gave to Jesus to die for, John 6:37.

All scriptures must harmonize if you interpret them right.
You have a problem in the Bible clearly says some men sought Him. If you try to harmonize no one EVER sought him with “David sought the Lord” you’ll have to drop “no one sought the Lord” or figure at that at some points in time no one was seeking the Lord which changed with time.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,862
4,513
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#38
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)
I'm talking about moral evil. Where does it say I create sin?

You are now admitting the conclusion of that theology. If God is the author of sin then how can anybody be justly held responsible? How could God be all good, loving, holy?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#39
I'm talking about moral evil. Where does it say I create sin?

You are now admitting the conclusion of that theology. If God is the author of sin then how can anybody be justly held responsible? How could God be all good, loving, holy?
Who created anything but God?
 
Apr 21, 2020
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#40
The question in the thread title asks

"Why are faith, works and salvation so hard to agree upon?"

The answer is that there is no Biblical definition as to what is means by "works".

Typically when Christians talk about "works", they mean that we no longer need to uphold Mosaic law in order to attain salvation, since we are under grace.
This is true.

Other people use a much broader meaning for "works" to imply that Christians no longer need to keep any of God's commandments at all.
This is false.

John 14:15
"If you love me, obey my commandments"