Why Are Faith, Works and Salvation So Hard to Agree Upon?

[Roughsoul1991]

Who created anything but God?

So in your theology God created sin? Then, God decides who He wants to save after creating the very thing that condemned people?

 

[tourist]

The question in the thread title asks

"Why are faith, works and salvation so hard to agree upon?"

The answer is that there is no Biblical definition as to what is means by "works".

Typically when Christians talk about "works", they mean that we no longer need to uphold Mosaic law in order to attain salvation, since we are under grace.
This is true.

Other people use a much broader meaning for "works" to imply that Christians no longer need to keep any of God's commandments at all.
This is false.

John 14:15
"If you love me, obey my commandments"

This passage gives a practical example of faith and works.

James 2:14-17
14What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

I believe that you are saved by faith in Jesus dying on the cross for your confessed sinful life. Works in themselves do not provide for salvation but rather are a manifestation of one's faith leading to salvation.

The 10 Commandments, written with the finger of God are still very much in effect because without the law there would be no knowledge of sin. The law kills, Jesus saves.

Works have nothing to do whatsoever with Mosaic law.

 

[tourist]

So in your theology God created sin? Then, God decides who He wants to save after creating the very thing that condemned people?

God did not so much create sin but rather has definfed it and allows certain situations to develop that would give occassion to sin. It is a matter of semantics in regards to God creating or allowing sin.

 

[Chester]

We are saved by faith alone, and not by works.

Not really!

Paul says we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

Never anywhere in Scripture does it say we are saved by "faith alone." The only place you can find that we are saved by "faith alone" is by finding a creed written by man.

If it was faith alone, then the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ would not be part of what brings salvation.

 

[garee]

So in your theology God created sin? Then, God decides who He wants to save after creating the very thing that condemned people?

It would seem he created mankind in his likeness the ability to communicate . and gave them a free will as to who will they would obey. He set up a law as a the letter death . They chose to do the will of cold blooded flesh (serpent ).The cold blooded killer. The glory of God departed. It took away the ability for the most beautiful creator to walk. The glory will return in the new heavens and earth.

He decides as a work of faith before he creates new creatures. "Let there be" He is the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the the things seen .No second guessing or re calculating. . make a U turn at the next intersection.. . . As many as the Father gave the Son they will come .

Like Job 33 informs us .He is of one mind and always does what so ever his soul pleases. He performs that which he appoints to us he making our hearts soft to that our load is lighter.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

God did not so much create sin but rather has definfed it and allows certain situations to develop that would give occassion to sin. It is a matter of semantics in regards to God creating or allowing sin.

The question was really to cause the recipient to think through his interpretation.

To me mankind is solely responsible for sin. Which means God has allowed mankind free will. Which is just when judgment arrives that each individual was handled justly.

But people can believe what they want on this issue that me and Dave are speaking on. The call to evangelism doesn't change rather free will or not.

I guess in context of this thread is some believe human faith or belief is a so called "work".

 

[garee]

Not really!

Paul says we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

Never anywhere in Scripture does it say we are saved by "faith alone." The only place you can find that we are saved by "faith alone" is by finding a creed written by man.

If it was faith alone, then the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ would not be part of what brings salvation.

The faith of Christ as a labor of love is not alone. The father worked with Him. . . together as one labor of God's love "the gospel of peace" surpasses my understanding as His freely given . (ears to hear)

 

[Roughsoul1991]

It would seem he created mankind in his likeness the ability to communicate . and gave them a free will as to who will they would obey. He set up a law as a the letter death . They chose to do the will of cold blooded flesh (serpent ).The cold blooded killer. The glory of God departed. It took away the ability for the most beautiful creator to walk. The glory will return in the new heavens and earth.

He decides as a work of faith before he creates new creatures. "Let there be" He is the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the the things seen .No second guessing or re calculating. . make a U turn at the next intersection.. . . As many as the Father gave the Son they will come .

Like Job 33 informs us .He is of one mind and always does what so ever his soul pleases. He performs that which he appoints to us he making our hearts soft to that our load is lighter.

Sounds good to me.

 

[garee]

This passage gives a practical example of faith and works.

James 2:14-17
14What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

I believe that you are saved by faith in Jesus dying on the cross for your confessed sinful life. Works in themselves do not provide for salvation but rather are a manifestation of one's faith leading to salvation.

The 10 Commandments, written with the finger of God are still very much in effect because without the law there would be no knowledge of sin. The law kills, Jesus saves.

Works have nothing to do whatsoever with Mosaic law.

The question according to verses you have offered must be identified as to "whose faith" as a work are we not to have in respect to the things seen . Can we have the faith of God in Christ in respect to Abraham or Rehab?. According to the opening context of the chapter as a law or commandment we cannot.

If we would attribute the work of faith as a labor of love to any other that Christ not seen then we have violated the commandment (blasphemy.)

The first commandment verse 1 must be obeyed if a we are to search out the spiritual understanding of the chapter .

Can't cut off the foundation and then try to understand .It would be like cutting off ones own foot. Ouch!

James 2:1 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Any person to include Abraham and Rehab

James 2:7 King James Version (KJV) Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

We are saved by works of faith as a labor of love just not that of our own selves or of Rehab and Abraham, James or Paul .
.

 

[Blade]

I picture a roller coaster and as you look at it...they are all over the place. Some going up.. some on top.. some going down.. and some at the bottom.


After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

You know I see how some read the wide and narrow road. I can agree...yet for some reason I always look at it in this world. What I posted is what will be. Man has said few.. so that tells me.. that after this there will be a great multitude no one can number.

 

[Guojing]

It’s easy. You can’t enter the presence of the Almighty sinful. If you desire to enter, to serve Him as Master/Lord, than you need your sin and guilt reconciled. Blood is the payment. Since the blood of the Lamb is Holy it is a sufficient sacrifice for all. If you do not believe Yeshua was Christ Son of the Most High, then He is just another man and His blood insufficient. This is why faith in Christ is needed for the removal of sins. You seek a pure heart so you may be grafted into the Vine to become part of the Body. The Body is not idle. It has function. So faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins (step 1). Desire to serve the Master and be unified in Christ, hence works (step 2). You can’t be saved without faith but it is for the purpose of works.

You don't find your argument circular?

You are using the well known cliche "It is faith alone that saves but the faith that saves is never alone"

 

[Hungry]

You don't find your argument circular?

You are using the well known cliche "It is faith alone that saves but the faith that saves is never alone"

The branch is not grafted to the Vine to simply be. Christ said Himself we are to produce fruit. Sure faith is required to be united with God, but we are united to be His hands and feet. He is the Head, we are the Body. The body serves the will of the mind (head). Do you not agree with this?

 

[Guojing]

The branch is not grafted to the Vine to simply be. Christ said Himself we are to produce fruit. Sure faith is required to be united with God, but we are united to be His hands and feet. He is the Head, we are the Body. The body serves the will of the mind (head). Do you not agree with this?

True, we will bear fruit naturally, because we are rooted in Christ.

So why not just say you are saved by faith alone? There is no need for the but right?

 

[Blik]

When I wondered about the disagreements I went into ancient history to track down when disagreements started. The apostle's church was called The Way, and it was much different than our churches today. When a man was sent from Rome to report on this new church a copy of his reply is still in print and it said they met in homes and took care of each other, they were a help to Rome not a threat. Evidently Rome ignored that report.

The first Christian councils were of Jews who accepted Christ as savior. They had no conception of Christ as not completely one with God and their knowledge of God as the OT tells of Him was never doubted. Then wars killed off Jews, nearly eliminating the race and gentiles took over the church. They did not have knowledge of God, only knowledge of the occult and idol worship as a background and some of it got mixed in.

If you read the reports of the christian councils starting in 323 you will be able to track how the church was changed from The Way, as the apostles had church.

 

[Blik]

True, we will bear fruit naturally, because we are rooted in Christ.

So why not just say you are saved by faith alone? There is no need for the but right?

Because people say if works won't save you, then they jump to something off the wall saying if you want to not sin then you believe that you are saved by not sinning. !!!! I think it must be demons working in their minds for it makes no sense unless it is a backhanded way of demons working against repentance. How they get repentance mixed up with working for salvation without Christ is beyond belief.

 

[DorothyMae]

Frankly speaking the difficulty in the works / faith debate comes from the side who don’t want to have to feel obligated to do any works. Those who fight against obeying God struggle. Those who just do the will of God don’t have a struggle with works at all.

 

[Guojing]

Frankly speaking the difficulty in the works / faith debate comes from the side who don’t want to have to feel obligated to do any works. Those who fight against obeying God struggle. Those who just do the will of God don’t have a struggle with works at all.

U mean, "do your best and let God do the rest" attitude?

 

[Hungry]

U mean, "do your best and let God do the rest" attitude?

Most people settle for do what’s comfortable and......once saved always saved.

True, we will bear fruit naturally, because we are rooted in Christ.

So why not just say you are saved by faith alone? There is no need for the but right?

You can’t read passages like “the parable of the fig tree”, the one that doesn’t produce fruit, and still believe what you believe. It states it was given special attention then after three years it still didn’t produce fruit it was dug up and thrown in the fire. How about those who say “Lord, Lord!” at the Judgement yet still get cast aside. Matthew 7 is very clear. Narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way that leads to life. Saying a prayer and thinking you just entered the gate does not seem difficult. Over and over Christ stresses obedience to God and love for your neighbors.

Let’s change this up a bit. You are trapped on the forth floor of a burning building. The fire truck has a ladder extended and firefighters are on the ladders helping people to climb down. They have prepared a way for your salvation. So the ladder saves. However you still have to get on the ladder and climb down. So you can’t be saved without the ladder (faith) but it is your work that frees you from the flames.

Also it’s those who walk in the Spirit that produce spiritual fruit. Walking in the spirit is connectivity to God that is intuitively leading that most don’t understand or practice.

 

[Guojing]

Most people settle for do what’s comfortable and......once saved always saved.


You can’t read passages like “the parable of the fig tree”, the one that doesn’t produce fruit, and still believe what you believe. It states it was given special attention then after three years it still didn’t produce fruit it was dug up and thrown in the fire. How about those who say “Lord, Lord!” at the Judgement yet still get cast aside. Matthew 7 is very clear. Narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way that leads to life. Saying a prayer and thinking you just entered the gate does not seem difficult. Over and over Christ stresses obedience to God and love for your neighbors.

Let’s change this up a bit. You are trapped on the forth floor of a burning building. The fire truck has a ladder extended and firefighters are on the ladders helping people to climb down. They have prepared a way for your salvation. So the ladder saves. However you still have to get on the ladder and climb down. So you can’t be saved without the ladder (faith) but it is your work that frees you from the flames.

Also it’s those who walk in the Spirit that produce spiritual fruit. Walking in the spirit is connectivity to God that is intuitively leading that most don’t understand or practice.

Fig trees, vineyards, figs always refer to Israel in the Scripture. The Jews were under the gospel of the kingdom which required them to play their part in bearing fruit.

 

[Hungry]

Fig trees, vineyards, figs always refer to Israel in the Scripture. The Jews were under the gospel of the kingdom which required them to play their part in bearing fruit.

I guess you’re right. God is only willing to let His chosen people get dug up and thrown in the fire. Gentiles can take up as much space in the vineyard enjoying the light and living water to produce....disappointment!