"Jesus died for everybody's sins"

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Guojing

Banned
#161
Jan 12, 2019
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#161
Runningman said:
Everyone is eligible for eternal life but clearly not all will receive it. That isn't the same thing as saying "Jesus did not die for everyone's sins."

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In that sense, would you agree with the statement that "Everyone believes in some form of limited atonement"?
 
D

DanielT

Member
#162
May 3, 2020
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#162
Fastfredy0 said:
ALL
....An error occurs when there is confusion about whether we refer to a term in a collective sense, or a distributive sense. A collective sense menas all the items are considered together as a whole. In a distributive sense, all the items are considered separately, one at a time. The tricky thing is that the word "all" can be used either way. When "all" is used collectively, it means "all together". When "all" is used distributively, it means "each and every one." The difference is really important and can often be distinguished only from context.
.. Example... Jill says, "All motorcycles have two whells." Greg responds, "That's ridiculous. A sigle motorcycle has two wheels. And there are of 200,000,000 motorcycles in the world. Therefore, all motorcycles would have over 400,000,000 wheels.
Thus the word ALL is ambiguous and often construed by one's bias.

Biblical Example:
“And early in the morning He came again into the Temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them” (John 8:2); are we to understand this expression absolutely or relatively? Does “all the people” mean all without exception or all without distinction, that is, all classes and conditions of people?
Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. The statement does not intend to say that all human beings without exception would hate Christians, since at least the Christians themselves would love one another.

Thus, your verse may not mean ALL DISTRIBUTIVELY. One should seek further explanation using explicit rather than implicit verses.

OK... I gave a possible explanation of your proposal. Now it's your turn to answer this:
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing ... Romans 10:17
Premise 2: Faith is necessary for Salvation John 3:16
Premise 3: Not everyone hears the Gospel
Conclusion: Jesus did not die for people that did not hear the gospel as it is not possible that they could be saved
Conclusion: God did not die for everyone

  • John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but that I [give new life and] raise it up at the last day.
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Ok. But there is a parallelism between the first "all" and the second "all" in Romans 5:18. If you say that the second "all" does not mean every single individual, then that would also mean that the first "all" is likewise redefined. The first "all" is clearly referring to every single human individual who ever existed because it is referring to the doctrine of the fall of Adam, you would have to have a really good reason to reinterpret the second "all" as being more limited than the first "all", but from the imediate context of Romans 5 there simply is no such reason.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#163
Mar 4, 2020
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#163
Guojing said:
In that sense, would you agree with the statement that "Everyone believes in some form of limited atonement"?
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If the operative word is "everyone" then no.

As far as I can tell Christ died in order to make everyone savable, which is what I meant when I said everyone is eligible for salvation. This would be what people refer to as unlimited atonement. As long as the requirement of faith in Christ is present then the Bible says that's enough.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#164
Jan 12, 2019
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#164
Runningman said:
If the operative word is "everyone" then no.

As far as I can tell Christ died in order to make everyone savable, which is what I meant when I said everyone is eligible for salvation. This would be what people refer to as unlimited atonement. As long as the requirement of faith in Christ is present then the Bible says that's enough.
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So if I can summarize your view, you believe its unlimited in scope, but limited to those who fulfill what you would call "the requirement of faith", which I assume you mean to receive by faith on the part of the believer.

Would that be a reasonable conclusion?
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#165
Mar 4, 2020
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#165
Guojing said:
So I can summarize your view, you believe its unlimited in scope, but limited to those who fulfilled what you would call "the requirement of faith", which I assume you mean to receive by faith on the part of the believer.

Would that be a reasonable conclusion?
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Yes that sounds about right.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#166
Jan 12, 2019
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#166
Runningman said:
Yes that sounds about right.
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Yep, that is what I also concluded after discussing this issue with a reformed Baptist.

I was against his concept of limited atonement at first, but at the end of the discussion, I realized "Hey I actually also believed in some form of limited atonement after all", so I began to empathize what he was coming from. :)
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#168
Mar 13, 2014
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#168
Dave-L said:
If you choose salvation you are the savior. Jesus instead, says he chooses whom he saves.
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If the choice is between salvation and condemnation I will chose salvation every time.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#169
Jan 17, 2020
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#169
tourist said:
If the choice is between salvation and condemnation I will chose salvation every time.
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But it's Jesus' choice, not yours. You have a legalistic gospel that denies grace in favor of works.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#170
Mar 13, 2014
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#170
Dave-L said:
But it's Jesus' choice, not yours. You have a legalistic gospel that denies grace in favor of works.
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Apparently Peter was preaching a legalistic gospel too. If accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior is a legalistic work of faith then I'm all in. The bible is chock full of passages urging the reader to chose life rather than death. That is what the whole book is about. Scripture is not predicated on how one interprets it or their own personal spin to suit their narrative but rather it is based on the Truth.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#171
Jan 17, 2020
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#171
tourist said:
Apparently Peter was preaching a legalistic gospel too. If accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior is a legalistic work of faith then I'm all in. The bible is chock full of passages urging the reader to chose life rather than death. That is what the whole book is about. Scripture is not predicated on how one interprets it or their own personal spin to suit their narrative but rather it is based on the Truth.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
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Most if not all of these were saved Jews called to repent of the Old Covenant and to accept the New Covenant. It was not about salvation.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#172
Mar 13, 2014
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#172
Dave-L said:
Most if not all of these were saved Jews called to repent of the Old Covenant and to accept the New Covenant. It was not about salvation.
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The entire verse explicitly pertains to salvation. There was no mention of repenting of the Old Covenant whatsoever, that is just something that you added to suit your narrative on salvation whatever it is. Right now I don't have a clue on your view or perception on the matter of salvation. Whatever it is it appears to be murky and convoluted.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#173
Jan 17, 2020
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#173
tourist said:
The entire verse explicitly pertains to salvation. There was no mention of repenting of the Old Covenant whatsoever, that is just something that you added to suit your narrative on salvation whatever it is. Right now I don't have a clue on your view or perception on the matter of salvation. Whatever it is it appears to be murky and convoluted.
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Were the disciples saved before then? All believing Jews were. It says "Devout Jews" (saved Jews) were at Pentecost when Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom of God in the New Covenant.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#174
Mar 13, 2014
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#174
Dave-L said:
Were the disciples saved before then? All believing Jews were. It says "Devout Jews" (saved Jews) were at Pentecost when Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom of God in the New Covenant.
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What you have stated has nothing at all to do with the verse that I provided pertaining to salvation. Again, I don't have a clue on what you are saying in this particular post. What is the passage(s) that states 'all believing Jews were at Pentecost when Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom of God in the New Covenant'? Regardless, nothing at all to do with the matter of salvation.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#175
Jan 17, 2020
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#175
tourist said:
What you have stated has nothing at all to do with the verse that I provided pertaining to salvation. Again, I don't have a clue on what you are saying in this particular post. What is the passage(s) that states 'all believing Jews were at Pentecost when Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom of God in the New Covenant'? Regardless, nothing at all to do with the matter of salvation.
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You were parading it about as works salvation. It has nothing to do with that.
 
G

garee

Banned
#176
Mar 28, 2016
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#176
Dave-L said:
Not according to Jesus. What do they know according to Paul?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

Point out something that would ever want anything to do with Christ, other than to kill him.
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Yes faithless Satan a murderer from Abel forward

Its the results of faithless mankind . Cain wanting nothing to do with Christ proved his work the power of his imagination plowed Abel. the first martyr under with the corn stalks .Out of sight out of mind. The foundation of paganism the fool
 
G

garee

Banned
#177
Mar 28, 2016
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#177
Dave-L said:
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Were the disciples saved before then? All believing Jews were. It says "Devout Jews" (saved Jews) were at Pentecost when Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom of God in the New Covenant.
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That kind of idea would seem to teach there is a division of the chaste virgin bride of Christ. Able a disciple of the gospel is shown as the first martyr one of the many lively stones that make up the spiritual house of God, the church.

All devout believers are saved by the hearing of faith .The same spirit of faith that moved Abel
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#178
#178
sushiseggrolls said:
He died for everyone, and everyone has the cabability to recieve His grace, but it is up to them to pursue God and to accept and receive that forgiveness. The verse I think best correlates to this is 2 Corinthians 5:15, "He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them."
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Welcome to CC
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#179
#179
Fastfredy0 said:
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing ... Romans 10:17
Premise 2: Faith is necessary for Salvation John 3:16
Premise 3: Not everyone hears the Gospel
Conclusion: Jesus did not die for people that did not hear the gospel as it is not possible that they could be saved
Conclusion: God did not die for everyone

Premise 1: God knows everything
Premise 2: God knows who will not believe salvifically
Premise 3: God does nothing in vain
Conclusion: God did not die in vain for unbelievers
Conclusion: God did not die for everyone
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The problem with these conclusions is the word of God suggests neither are true.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#180
#180
Fastfredy0 said:
Romans 4:25 "He was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." For whose offenses he died, for their justification he rose; -- and therefore, if he died for all, all must also be justified, or the Lord failed in his aim and design, both in the death and resurrection of his Son; but He did not justify every person, thus He did not die for every person.
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again a false conclusion

He did for all. So that all could be saved.

It does not mean all will be saved..
 
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