Predeterminism and free will

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D

DBurrage

Banned
#1
Apr 21, 2020
621
176
43
#1
I'd like to take this brief opportunity to say thank you to the CC users who contribute to my threads in a kind and gentle way.
I've started a number of threads that often address deep and complex questions, so thank you to those CC members who take the time to respond thoughtfully.

My question in this thread concerns predeterminism and free will.

My reading of the Bible is that everybody who will receive salvation has their name written in the book of life - right or wrong?

If this is true, and if God already knows who will reconcile with him through Jesus, how does this idea tally with free will?

Is free will Biblical?
 
D

DBurrage

Banned
#2
Apr 21, 2020
621
176
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#2
Thanks to the moderators for once again approving one of my threads :)
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#3
Sep 4, 2013
30,693
6,884
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#3
You could "search" for these questions.........if you do, you will find Thousands of Posts addressing your questions.

Also, it would really be good if YOU gave some detailed comments as to what you believe about this, and then wait for others to respond.

From what I have seen of your Posts, you appear to seek out the "hot button" topics of debate in the Church which will usually cause distention within the Church.

Is that something one should seek to do?
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#4
Sep 4, 2013
30,693
6,884
113
#4
Proverbs 6:16-19 - These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: (Read More...)

Romans 16:17-18 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Read More...)

James 4:11 - Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Proverbs 6:19 - A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Proverbs 17:9 - He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth [very] friends.

Matthew 5:9 - Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Proverbs 6:14 - Frowardness [is] in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.

Matthew 18:15-20 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (Read More...)

Ephesians 5:11 - And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].

Galatians 6:1 - Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Titus 3:9-11 - But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. (Read More...)

1 Peter 2:1-25 - Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, (Read More...)

Colossians 4:5-6 - Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. (Read More...)

1 Corinthians 6:18 - Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#5
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#5
DBurrage said:
I'd like to take this brief opportunity to say thank you to the CC users who contribute to my threads in a kind and gentle way.
I've started a number of threads that often address deep and complex questions, so thank you to those CC members who take the time to respond thoughtfully.

My question in this thread concerns predeterminism and free will.

My reading of the Bible is that everybody who will receive salvation has their name written in the book of life - right or wrong?

If this is true, and if God already knows who will reconcile with him through Jesus, how does this idea tally with free will?

Is free will Biblical?
Click to expand...
We have free will only after being saved. We know the truth and it makes us free. Before that we are slaves of sin and can choose only to sin. God gives us a new heart of love for him and we have free will at that point. People think they can choose Christ like they choose a candy bar, without the New Birth, but it will be only a false Christ.
 
D

DBurrage

Banned
#6
Apr 21, 2020
621
176
43
#6
p_rehbein said:
You could "search" for these questions.........if you do, you will find Thousands of Posts addressing your questions.

Also, it would really be good if YOU gave some detailed comments as to what you believe about this, and then wait for others to respond.

From what I have seen of your Posts, you appear to seek out the "hot button" topics of debate in the Church which will usually cause distention within the Church.

Is that something one should seek to do?
Click to expand...
Saying that I shouldn't ask pertinent questions because it may give rise to a discussion in which some people disagree is just absurd.

I actually don't know what I believe when it comes to predeterminism and free will, hence my OP in which I seek guidance.
 
D

DBurrage

Banned
#7
Apr 21, 2020
621
176
43
#7
Dave-L said:
We have free will only after being saved. We know the truth and it makes us free. Before that we are slaves of sin and can choose only to sin. God gives us a new heart of love for him and we have free will at that point. People think they can choose Christ like they choose a candy bar, without the New Birth, but it will be only a false Christ.
Click to expand...
"We have free will only after being saved"

So do we come to God under our own free will, or does God select us to be saved?

Note I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm genuinely forming my own perspective here.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#8
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#8
DBurrage said:
"We have free will only after being saved"

So do we come to God under our own free will, or does God select us to be saved?

Note I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm genuinely forming my own perspective here.
Click to expand...
God saves us so we can have free will and choose not to sin. Before we were powerless over sin and every choice was sin itself.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#9
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#9
DBurrage said:
I'd like to take this brief opportunity to say thank you to the CC users who contribute to my threads in a kind and gentle way.
I've started a number of threads that often address deep and complex questions, so thank you to those CC members who take the time to respond thoughtfully.

My question in this thread concerns predeterminism and free will.

My reading of the Bible is that everybody who will receive salvation has their name written in the book of life - right or wrong?

If this is true, and if God already knows who will reconcile with him through Jesus, how does this idea tally with free will?

Is free will Biblical?
Click to expand...
A better questions would be when did a saved person have their name written in the book of life? At salvation? The moment they believed the gospel? Remember, "from" the foundation of the world does not mean "before or at" the foundation of the world. Men have been trusting in God from the foundation of the world up until now.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#10
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#10
John146 said:
A better questions would be when did a saved person have their name written in the book of life? At salvation? The moment they believed the gospel? Remember, "from" the foundation of the world does not mean "before or at" the foundation of the world. Men have been trusting in God from the foundation of the world up until now.
Click to expand...
God is not omniscient if the names of the saved were not eternally in his person. I have eternal life which means there was never a time when God didn't consider me as saved. Even though it came to pass in time.
 
D

DBurrage

Banned
#11
Apr 21, 2020
621
176
43
#11
Dave-L said:
God is not omniscient if the names of the saved were not eternally in his person. I have eternal life which means there was never a time when God didn't consider me as saved. Even though it came to pass in time.
Click to expand...
And this is precisely my point.

How can we have true free will if everything is predetermined?
Is free will Biblical?

I do not know the answers to these questions.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#12
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#12
DBurrage said:
And this is precisely my point.

How can we have true free will if everything is predetermined?
Is free will Biblical?

I do not know the answers to these questions.
Click to expand...
I have a solution to your specific questions. Here it is; You base every choice on a reason God used to control you. Adam sinned because it was what he wanted most based on the reasons God used to produce original sin.
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#13
Sep 17, 2016
8,855
4,507
113
#13
DBurrage said:
And this is precisely my point.

How can we have true free will if everything is predetermined?
Is free will Biblical?

I do not know the answers to these questions.
Click to expand...
Are we predetermined to debate this for centuries?

Here is one of my defense for free will.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-absence-of-free-will.187333/

It is strange how even Marx and Engels who thought up Communism needed people without free will to justify their beliefs.

Or how it has it's roots in Gnostic beliefs. And the early church fathers quite often defended free will.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#14
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#14
Dave-L said:
God is not omniscient if the names of the saved were not eternally in his person. I have eternal life which means there was never a time when God didn't consider me as saved. Even though it came to pass in time.
Click to expand...
So, you were never once a child of wrath? Ephesians 2?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#16
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#16
Dave-L said:
Was Paul? Did it work for his good?
Click to expand...
Yes, Paul was once a child of wrath. But according to you, there was never a time when that was possible. You were known as a child of God before the foundation of the world. That's just not a biblical view.
 
D

DBurrage

Banned
#17
Apr 21, 2020
621
176
43
#17
John146 said:
Yes, Paul was once a child of wrath. But according to you, there was never a time when that was possible. You were known as a child of God before the foundation of the world. That's just not a biblical view.
Click to expand...
I think he's saying that because God is omnipresent, that the names of the saved were in the book of life from the beginning, since God always knew who would turn to him.

Whether that's true or not, I don't know.
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#18
Sep 17, 2016
8,855
4,507
113
#18
DBurrage said:
I think he's saying that because God is omnipresent, that the names of the saved were in the book of life from the beginning, since God always knew who would turn to him.

Whether that's true or not, I don't know.
Click to expand...
That is the foreknowledge view. I hold that view but others do not.
 
Benadam

Benadam

Banned
#19
Aug 14, 2019
1,374
307
83
#19
God gave Adam and Eve freedom. Love requires freedom.
They used their freedom to not love God.
If He knew they would do this did they do it freely?

and all that implies.
 
Lafftur

Lafftur

Senior Member
#20
Apr 18, 2017
6,892
3,633
113
#20
God is love and Love desires to love and be loved.

Love cannot be created, love MUST have a choice or it is NOT love - just a bunch of created robots with no decision capabilities - preprogrammed.

Love has choices - the end result of the choices are predetermined with predetermined consequences but, the choices are free will.

There are two paths - Life and Death. The paths have predetermined ends - one ends in Life the other in Death.

God lets us choose which path. He tells us to choose Life but, He leaves the choice up to us.

God greatly desires us to know Him and to love Him but, love has to have a choice.

God created us with the "capacity to love" but, left the choice to love Him up to us.
 
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