Why Are Faith, Works and Salvation So Hard to Agree Upon?

[Hungry]

I’m not honestly here to debate the faith/works or OSAS aspect. My question was to find out how anybody can intentionally force themselves to believe we were just saved to be some crippled Body unmoving and just being kept on lifesupport. It’s truly mind boggling to me. The scripture is so clear. There’s not even a debate. It’s like debating whether the sun is in the sky at noon. If I close my eyes, how do know it doesn’t just disappear?

 

[Guojing]

I guess you’re right. God is only willing to let His chosen people get dug up and thrown in the fire. Gentiles can take up as much space in the vineyard enjoying the light and living water to produce....disappointment!

God has now became enemies with Israel for our sake, so that we can be saved apart from Israel.

Romans 11 made that clear

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

But don't worry about Israel, God will save them for Abraham's sake later, since God made an unconditional promise to him.

 

[PennEd]

I didn’t even realize “total depravity” was such a common belief. It seems counterintuitive. If you know right from wrong you always have the choice which to pick. Even non-Christians can choose right from wrong. They can do it out of wisdom or fear (of consequence or rejection). So to does everyone face a path to live for self, or live for God. It just seems obvious that the gate for the path to God, is faith in Christ. It’s the starting point, not the destination.

This question is not as cut and dry as it seems. We can’t understand a loving God “choosing “ some, while NOT choosing others. So therefore in our logical, human, fleshly minds we have to believe in US having the ability to conceive and birth and save ourselves.

Problem is there is tons of Scripture that run counter to that belief.

God told Adam he would die on the day he disobeyed and ate the fruit. Adam did Spiritually die on that day. That is why Jesus has to come to begin with. To give new life through a new Spiritual birth.

Genesis 5 says Seth was born in the image and likeness of ADAM, After his fall, NOT God.

So I don’t know how a dead person chooses to believe without divine intervention. Scripture says we are “quickened “ or our faith that Hid gave us is somehow activated upon hearing the Gospel.

 

[DorothyMae]

U mean, "do your best and let God do the rest" attitude?

Well, I actually live asking God what I am to do or not do. Otherwise I’d say don’t argue against doing good to others as though this is odious to God.

 

[DorothyMae]

God has now became enemies with Israel for our sake, so that we can be saved apart from Israel.

Romans 11 made that clear

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

But don't worry about Israel, God will save them for Abraham's sake later, since God made an unconditional promise to him.

Actually his promises to Israel, most of them, were conditional. Besides, a lot of Israelites have died already not receiving any promise. What happens to Jews in the future is of no help. I’ve often wondered why God supposedly saving some Jews in the future when the vast majority are already lost and gone, is such a great thing.

 

[Guojing]

Actually his promises to Israel, most of them, were conditional. Besides, a lot of Israelites have died already not receiving any promise. What happens to Jews in the future is of no help. I’ve often wondered why God supposedly saving some Jews in the future when the vast majority are already lost and gone, is such a great thing.

True, but remember Israel came from the loins of Abraham.

God made an unconditional promise to him that his descendants would inherit a land on Earth and God also promised David that there will always be a king from David's line that will rule over them from his throne in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 7:12-16, Psalms 89)

These promises will be fulfilled by God, no matter what.

 

[Blik]

Fig trees, vineyards, figs always refer to Israel in the Scripture. The Jews were under the gospel of the kingdom which required them to play their part in bearing fruit.

You mean Jews and gentiles are made different? How about Chinese, Negros, and white? Does God have different requirements for them also?

 

[Guojing]

You mean Jews and gentiles are made different? How about Chinese, Negros, and white? Does God have different requirements for them also?

During the 4 gospel time period, if you are not a Jew, you are a gentile.

If you want to covenant with God as a gentile, you have to be a Jew.

 

[Blik]

Actually his promises to Israel, most of them, were conditional. Besides, a lot of Israelites have died already not receiving any promise. What happens to Jews in the future is of no help. I’ve often wondered why God supposedly saving some Jews in the future when the vast majority are already lost and gone, is such a great thing.

God decides and gives salvation, even Christ told us it was the Father who decides. Romans 11:2 tells us: 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

 

[Hungry]

This question is not as cut and dry as it seems. We can’t understand a loving God “choosing “ some, while NOT choosing others. So therefore in our logical, human, fleshly minds we have to believe in US having the ability to conceive and birth and save ourselves.

Problem is there is tons of Scripture that run counter to that belief.

God told Adam he would die on the day he disobeyed and ate the fruit. Adam did Spiritually die on that day. That is why Jesus has to come to begin with. To give new life through a new Spiritual birth.

Genesis 5 says Seth was born in the image and likeness of ADAM, After his fall, NOT God.

So I don’t know how a dead person chooses to believe without divine intervention. Scripture says we are “quickened “ or our faith that Hid gave us is somehow activated upon hearing the Gospel.

It’s really not difficult at all. We were created to serve God. God requires workers to do His will. If I owned a company, I’m sure there would be many people seeking employment who would apply. Also there will be some people who would be specifically necessary and I would go and try to recruit them. Those who I recruited I would empower and glorify. This is what many are missing. They can’t differentiate.

 

[DorothyMae]

God decides and gives salvation, even Christ told us it was the Father who decides. Romans 11:2 tells us: 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Actually Jesus didn’t say that. He said no one comes to the Father except through him and no one comes to him except God draws them. But He also says whosoever will believe on Him can be saved. None of this says God chooses some AND NOT OTHERS.

Do you think God “not casting away” the Jews means all are saved because of they’re being Jews?

 

[DorothyMae]

True, but remember Israel came from the loins of Abraham.

God made an unconditional promise to him that his descendants would inherit a land on Earth and God also promised David that there will always be a king from David's line that will rule over them from his throne in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 7:12-16, Psalms 89)

These promises will be fulfilled by God, no matter what.

Jesus said God is able to raise descendants out of stones. Paul argues that the descendants of Abraham are those whose faith follows His faith. That is the Christians.

That descendant is Jesus. He said the meek inherit the earth, not the Jews.

 

[garee]

Guojing said:

True, but remember Israel came from the loins of Abraham.

God made an unconditional promise to him that his descendants would inherit a land on Earth and God also promised David that there will always be a king from David's line that will rule over them from his throne in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 7:12-16, Psalms 89)

These promises will be fulfilled by God, no matter what.

That promise was a promise of faith (unseen) in respect to the spiritual born again spiritual seed Christ . And not seeds flesh as many Abraham . David's was conditional as a letter of the law. . . it failed in the next generation. Revealed again in the Son of man Jesus.

Israel's name as one who wrestles with flesh nd blood Genesis 35:10 and because they have the Spirit of Christ in them they can overcome. He renamed His bride a more befitting name in Acts to represent all the nations of the word .

Christian . .a word with no other meaning added means; "residents of the city of Christ" prepared at the bride. Named after her husband and founder, Christ.

Not all Israel is born again Israel only the inward Jew that has the Spirit of Christ in them .If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him

 

[Blik]

Actually Jesus didn’t say that. He said no one comes to the Father except through him and no one comes to him except God draws them. But He also says whosoever will believe on Him can be saved. None of this says God chooses some AND NOT OTHERS.

Do you think God “not casting away” the Jews means all are saved because of they’re being Jews?

Over and over we are told it is the Father who saves through Christ. It was the Father who gave His son.

Romans 11 explains, but there is still some mystery about how God keeps his promises to them. I think scripture tells us to simply leave it all to God, trusting Him. We are to understand that their blindness to Christ was given them by God for the good of gentiles. God knew that if Jews were to lead us to Christ we would not go there.,

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

 

[Bbrdrd]

The issue boils down to one beyond Scriptural considerations. Some become so invested in the idea of not being judged that any hint of being accountable is tantamount to heresy. Instead of recognizing that salvation is not something that is apart from our works but instead something that we become engaged with in order to facilitate works they must be completely divorced from any sort of culpability for their actions. To imply that God has requirements is to imply that they do not live up to those requirements. Some cannot stand to be scrutinized because they know their works will be cast away so they imply that others works are equally worthless. It is, in essence, an escape. Instead of hearkening to the multitude of verses that state we will be judged by our works/deeds they cling to single verses that speak of the necessity of faith. Ultimately, the question is one of whether someone is willing to submit themselves to God's justice or rely on their own faulty sense of right and wrong.

 

[DBurrage]

The question in the thread title asks.

"Why are faith, works and salvation so hard to agree upon?"

As I've said before:

The answer is that there is no Biblical definition as to what is means by "works".

Typically when Christians talk about "works", they mean that we no longer need to uphold Mosaic law in order to attain salvation, since we are under grace.
This is true.

Other people use a much broader meaning for "works" to imply that Christians no longer need to keep any of God's commandments at all.
This is false.

John 14:15
"If you love me, obey my commandments"

 

[DorothyMae]

Over and over we are told it is the Father who saves through Christ. It was the Father who gave His son.

I gave you the direct statements and it is no one comes to the Father except through Christ and no one comes to Christ except the Father draws them. But we see that God wants everyone to come and no one to be lost so that it is clear that we have a choice in the matter, which can be the only reason why we are not all coming.

Romans 11 explains, but there is still some mystery about how God keeps his promises to them. I think scripture tells us to simply leave it all to God, trusting Him. We are to understand that their blindness to Christ was given them by God for the good of gentiles. God knew that if Jews were to lead us to Christ we would not go there.,

PRetty sure history shows us that the first christians were, in fact, Jews and we did go there, at least a whole lot of us. Regarding the Jews, Jesus said the Kingdom of God was taken away from them and so it is. They are now and unreached people group although that is one of their choosing. He loves them and is calling them same as any other group.

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

We are blessed through Christ so that is fulfilled.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus said God is able to raise descendants out of stones. Paul argues that the descendants of Abraham are those whose faith follows His faith. That is the Christians.

That descendant is Jesus. He said the meek inherit the earth, not the Jews.

So you are saying you believe Romans 11:25-28 does not mean what it says?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

[Bbrdrd]

I gave you the direct statements and it is no one comes to the Father except through Christ and no one comes to Christ except the Father draws them. But we see that God wants everyone to come and no one to be lost so that it is clear that we have a choice in the matter, which can be the only reason why we are not all coming.
PRetty sure history shows us that the first christians were, in fact, Jews and we did go there, at least a whole lot of us. Regarding the Jews, Jesus said the Kingdom of God was taken away from them and so it is. They are now and unreached people group although that is one of their choosing. He loves them and is calling them same as any other group.
We are blessed through Christ so that is fulfilled.

Just wanted to point out the first Christians were not jew, though the message was first brought to the jews. One of the central issues of the early church was the degree to which progeny related to salvation and over and over again the Bible affirms that salvation is not something that is heritable. We are all accountable to God for ourselves regardless of our heritage, especially and in spite of heritable qualities claimed by the jews in Romans and Ephesians. Of course, all of this is tertiary to the question of free will which I think you've got a pretty good handle on.

 

[DorothyMae]

Just wanted to point out the first Christians were not jew, though the message was first brought to the jews.

They certainly were. Every single one of the 12 apostles were Jews. Where do you get the idea that tehy were not? The first non-jewish christians came later and is document in Acts it is so unusual.

One of the central issues of the early church was the degree to which progeny related to salvation and over and over again the Bible affirms that salvation is not something that is heritable. We are all accountable to God for ourselves regardless of our heritage, especially and in spite of heritable qualities claimed by the jews in Romans and Ephesians. Of course, all of this is tertiary to the question of free will which I think you've got a pretty good handle on.

Thanks for the compliment and I agree on this. Being a jewish Christian did not mean it was inherited though. Well, the Jewish part is same as being Japanese or German or Russian in inherited more or less.