Why Are Faith, Works and Salvation So Hard to Agree Upon?

[DorothyMae]

So you are saying you believe Romans 11:25-28 does not mean what it says?

I am saying the whole of the truth needs to be found in reading the whole of the BIble, not isolating one verse.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Let us test your understanding. There are millions of Jews who have died not being saved at this point in time. If they are not saved, then "all of Israel" as you understand it cannot be saved. Do you see what I mean? Or do you think this means all of the lucky Jews who are living when "all Israel" is saved are and the rest had the bad luck not to live in that time period? How does this "all Israel" is saved work out in reality in your thinking?

 

[Bbrdrd]

They certainly were. Every single one of the 12 apostles were Jews. Where do you get the idea that tehy were not? The first non-jewish christians came later and is document in Acts it is so unusual.

Thanks for the compliment and I agree on this. Being a jewish Christian did not mean it was inherited though. Well, the Jewish part is same as being Japanese or German or Russian in inherited more or less.

When I say the first Christians were not jews, I am extending it beyond simply the apostles. Certainly they were of jewish heritage but the first to receive the message were gentiles. I suppose it depends on how we split the cat as the first to spread the message were absolutely jews, but the jews were not quick to receive the message.

 

[Guojing]

I am saying the whole of the truth needs to be found in reading the whole of the BIble, not isolating one verse.
Let us test your understanding. There are millions of Jews who have died not being saved at this point in time. If they are not saved, then "all of Israel" as you understand it cannot be saved. Do you see what I mean? Or do you think this means all of the lucky Jews who are living when "all Israel" is saved are and the rest had the bad luck not to live in that time period? How does this "all Israel" is saved work out in reality in your thinking?

In the meantime, the Jews are like the Gentiles. They need to believe in Paul's gospel of grace in 1 Cor 15:1-4 to be saved, like all of us now.

The Tribulation Jews aren't luckier, to be saved during the Tribulation is much more difficult. It would require them to endure 7 years without accepting the mark of the beast.

 

[DorothyMae]

In the meantime, the Jews are like the Gentiles. They need to believe in Paul's gospel of grace in 1 Cor 15:1-4 to be saved, like all of us now.

The Tribulation Jews aren't luckier, to be saved during the Tribulation is much more difficult. It would require them to endure 7 years without accepting the mark of the beast.

Well, that is the theology, but my point is that those who believe all the Jews (living at the moment) will be saved makes them just plain lucky as compared to all the millions of Jews who have already died. It is rather a silly thing to believe. Some of Israel has already perished. They will not be saved which means "all" Israel cannot mean every Jew.

 

[DorothyMae]

When I say the first Christians were not jews, I am extending it beyond simply the apostles. Certainly they were of jewish heritage but the first to receive the message were gentiles. I suppose it depends on how we split the cat as the first to spread the message were absolutely jews, but the jews were not quick to receive the message.

You need to read the book of Acts again. The first to receive the message were the Jews. Jesus said, first to Jew, and that is what they did. YOu can read about Paul first going to the synagogue to present the gospel. The first non-Jews are also recorded as Peter went to Cornelius but that was much later. The first Christians were Jews and it was considered a Jewish Sect and it says so. The Jews persecuted the jewish Christians, not the gentile Christians.

 

[Guojing]

Well, that is the theology, but my point is that those who believe all the Jews (living at the moment) will be saved makes them just plain lucky as compared to all the millions of Jews who have already died. It is rather a silly thing to believe. Some of Israel has already perished. They will not be saved which means "all" Israel cannot mean every Jew.

Yes, only in heaven will we know whether God will indeed save EVERY Jew, just because Paul stated all Israel.

I suspected he meant the nation of Israel during the Tribulation but well, we will only know when we have perfect knowledge.

 

[DorothyMae]

Yes, only in heaven will we know whether God will indeed save EVERY Jew, just because Paul stated all Israel.

I suspected he meant the nation of Israel during the Tribulation but well, we will only know when we have perfect knowledge.

I suspect he meant those who like Abraham, believed in the promises and fulfilled the conditions to be saved. Not all descendants of Abraham are Israel according to the Bible, but the children of faith. All those who are grafted into Christ will be saved. I do not believe it refers to one blood line among men.

 

[Guojing]

I suspect he meant those who like Abraham, believed in the promises and fulfilled the conditions to be saved. Not all descendants of Abraham are Israel according to the Bible, but the children of faith. All those who are grafted into Christ will be saved. I do not believe it refers to one blood line among men.

My current belief is that, using the time periods used by Paul

1. In time past: The renmant of Jews that believed God and obeyed what he commanded (David, Abraham etc). The Jews who believed in Jesus as the Son of God and were water baptized.
2. But now: All of us, Jews and Gentiles, who followed 1 Cor 15:1-4
3. In the age to come: Those Jews who believe in Jesus and kept the commandments (Rev 14:12)

So there are Jews in every time period that are saved, and they will make up a huge number.

 

[DorothyMae]

My current belief is that, using the time periods used by Paul

1. In time past: The renmant of Jews that believed God and obeyed what he commanded (David, Abraham etc). The Jews who believed in Jesus as the Son of God and were water baptized.
2. But now: All of us, Jews and Gentiles, who followed 1 Cor 15:1-4
3. In the age to come: Those Jews who believe in Jesus and kept the commandments (Rev 14:12)

So there are Jews in every time period that are saved, and they will make up a huge number.

If you look at the statistics of how many Jews have lived and how many are or were unbelievers in God at all, it is a very small number who are saved and in any case, it is not "all" by any stretch of the imagination.

And as for 3., the Christians are also supposed to obey God. We are also supposed to refrain from adultery, stealing, lieing about others, murder, etc.

 

[azamzimtoti]

When I say the first Christians were not jews, I am extending it beyond simply the apostles. Certainly they were of jewish heritage but the first to receive the message were gentiles. I suppose it depends on how we split the cat as the first to spread the message were absolutely jews, but the jews were not quick to receive the message.

I don't follow this. The first Christians were the apostles.

(Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words)

(Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.)

(Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.)

 

[Guojing]

If you look at the statistics of how many Jews have lived and how many are or were unbelievers in God at all, it is a very small number who are saved and in any case, it is not "all" by any stretch of the imagination.

And as for 3., the Christians are also supposed to obey God. We are also supposed to refrain from adultery, stealing, lieing about others, murder, etc.

No worries, in the age to come, its no more the grace dispensation. It will be faith and works for salvation once again. (Rev 14:12)

 

[Bbrdrd]

I don't follow this. The first Christians were the apostles.

(Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words)

(Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.)

(Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.)

I can see the confusion, the apostles were certainly the first Christians. There's certainly a trajectory of the first Christians being jewish, but where I'm objecting is with when Christianity became a movement. The jews, by and large, rejected Christianity making it ripe for gentiles to displace them. I certainly have no issues with the characterization that the apostles and other jews were the first Christians, but it seems to overemphasize jewishness with the movement as a whole.

 

[azamzimtoti]

I can see the confusion, the apostles were certainly the first Christians. There's certainly a trajectory of the first Christians being jewish, but where I'm objecting is with when Christianity became a movement. The jews, by and large, rejected Christianity making it ripe for gentiles to displace them. I certainly have no issues with the characterization that the apostles and other jews were the first Christians, but it seems to overemphasize jewishness with the movement as a whole.

It was a Jewish movement and could be still considered to be Jewish, originally it was called a sect:

(Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes)

(Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone)

It doesn't get more Jewish than this. Just because the Gentiles have filled the church since doesn't make it a Gentile "church".

 

[Bbrdrd]

It was a Jewish movement and could be still considered to be Jewish, originally it was called a sect:

(Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes)

(Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone)

It doesn't get more Jewish than this. Just because the Gentiles have filled the church since doesn't make if a Gentile "church".

Fair enough.

 

[garee]

I can see the confusion, the apostles were certainly the first Christians. There's certainly a trajectory of the first Christians being jewish, but where I'm objecting is with when Christianity became a movement. The jews, by and large, rejected Christianity making it ripe for gentiles to displace them. I certainly have no issues with the characterization that the apostles and other jews were the first Christians, but it seems to overemphasize jewishness with the movement as a whole.

Its more Christians were first called Christians the new name God named his bride. As a more befitting names to represent all the nations. It has nothing to with sent ones .God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form

Some apostles were part of the new denomination called the Nazarene

Abel is the first apostle, martyr, disciple of the Holy Spirit listed..

The unbelieving atheistic Jew that God calls calls fools have nothing to so with Christianity other then appose the gospel .Hoping there flesh could profit for something.

 

[Blik]

I gave you the direct statements and it is no one comes to the Father except through Christ and no one comes to Christ except the Father draws them. But we see that God wants everyone to come and no one to be lost so that it is clear that we have a choice in the matter, which can be the only reason why we are not all coming.
PRetty sure history shows us that the first christians were, in fact, Jews and we did go there, at least a whole lot of us. Regarding the Jews, Jesus said the Kingdom of God was taken away from them and so it is. They are now and unreached people group although that is one of their choosing. He loves them and is calling them same as any other group.
We are blessed through Christ so that is fulfilled.

Do you really think we gentiles want to be taught by the Jew? I don't.

You are reading and understanding scripture about Christ, that is so important. The NT describes Him so much better than the OT. But to me, you are not dividing scripture accurately. You are not giving the same attention and understanding to the role that God the Father plays.

I don't think God's words to us, as scripture is, is ever over and done with once something has happened in our kind of time, not eternal time. God tells us of eternal things,

 

[DorothyMae]

Do you really think we gentiles want to be taught by the Jew? I don't.

That is your personal prejudice. My favorite person to teach me is a Jew. He died for my sins. And the fact is, the early Christian gentiles were by and large taught by Jews. You can be glad you were not there, I guess.

You are reading and understanding scripture about Christ, that is so important. The NT describes Him so much better than the OT. But to me, you are not dividing scripture accurately. You are not giving the same attention and understanding to the role that God the Father plays.

When have we discussed God the Father?

I don't think God's words to us, as scripture is, is ever over and done with once something has happened in our kind of time, not eternal time. God tells us of eternal things,

Well, the coming of Jesus as suffering servant is over and done once. The flood is over and done once. I can probably think of a few more so you are incorrect. Do you agree?

 

[garee]

That is your personal prejudice. My favorite person to teach me is a Jew. He died for my sins. And the fact is, the early Christian gentiles were by and large taught by Jews. You can be glad you were not there, I guess.
When have we discussed God the Father? Well, the coming of Jesus as suffering servant is over and done once. The flood is over and done once. I can probably think of a few more so you are incorrect. Do you agree?

My favorite Teacher as Good Master is not seen. He indwells the believer in a earthen body as the temple of the Holy Spirit.

He is Jesus the Son of man favorite teacher as a Good Master as Lord also.

One day those who walk by sight as if the kingdom of God did come by observation approached Jesus asked. Calling him Good Master. Jesus dared not stand in the place of our father in heaven and rob the glory of God and Jesus said, one is our Good Master God.(not seen). we walk by faith.

Jesus of his own corrupted flesh and blood said it profits for nothing powerless. Its the unseen Holy Spirit that can profit it quickens our soul . Powerful living abiding words that are Spirit and life giving.

Jesus did not do the will of the flesh but as us was moved to both will and do the good pleasure of God.

God is not a man.

 

[DorothyMae]

My favorite Teacher as Good Master is not seen. He indwells the believer in a earthen body as the temple of the Holy Spirit.

And otherwise dwells outside of the Believer.

He is Jesus the Son of man favorite teacher as a Good Master as Lord also.

A jew for sure.

One day those who walk by sight as if the kingdom of God did come by observation approached Jesus asked. Calling him Good Master. Jesus dared not stand in the place of our father in heaven and rob the glory of God and Jesus said, one is our Good Master God.(not seen). we walk by faith.

Huh? I do not understand a word of that and do not recognize anything of the above in the Bible.

Jesus of his own corrupted flesh and blood said it profits for nothing powerless. Its the unseen Holy Spirit that can profit it quickens our soul . Powerful living abiding words that are Spirit and life giving.

Jesus' flesh was not corrupted. Otherwise OK, I guess.

 

[Blik]

When I say the first Christians were not jews, I am extending it beyond simply the apostles. Certainly they were of jewish heritage but the first to receive the message were gentiles. I suppose it depends on how we split the cat as the first to spread the message were absolutely jews, but the jews were not quick to receive the message.

You do need to read scripture, and understand the relationship between God and Jews, God and gentiles, and what God wants the relationship between Jews and gentiles to be. It is important.

The first church denomination after Christ rose was called The Way, and the first members of that church was predominately Jews. It lasted only about 500 years then the church was the Catholic church. Many Christian Jews fell away from Christianity after the several wars with Rome from 66 to 132 over their need for unity to fight Rome. These wars killed so many Jews there were no Jews left in Jerusalem. Gentiles then took over the leadership of the Christian Church.