Why Are Faith, Works and Salvation So Hard to Agree Upon?
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Jerusalem was totally destroyed and ploughed under in 70 AD. until the second century. So we cannot talk about the Jews in Jerusalem until much later.
The opening of the gospel to the Gentiles took place in the first century, not 500 years later, and the leadership was also held by gentiles in gentile churches. This happened decades after Pentecost, perhaps, not centuries.
The Catholic church started when Constantine declared himself the first Pope (Pontifux maximus) and was not considered the christian church then or even now. It is a pagan religion that changed its images (literally in Rome) to the names of christains who had died. The catholic church persecuted the christians who had bibles and even in the day of Constatine, persecuted those christians who refused to come under their authority. They call themselves the "true church" but that is a deeply self-interest proclamation. There are christians today in the catholic church and probably were at many times. But the organization itself is deeply pagan and downright evil at times and places.
The opening of the gospel to the Gentiles took place in the first century, not 500 years later, and the leadership was also held by gentiles in gentile churches. This happened decades after Pentecost, perhaps, not centuries.
The Catholic church started when Constantine declared himself the first Pope (Pontifux maximus) and was not considered the christian church then or even now. It is a pagan religion that changed its images (literally in Rome) to the names of christains who had died. The catholic church persecuted the christians who had bibles and even in the day of Constatine, persecuted those christians who refused to come under their authority. They call themselves the "true church" but that is a deeply self-interest proclamation. There are christians today in the catholic church and probably were at many times. But the organization itself is deeply pagan and downright evil at times and places.
If you read my post closely, it is saying ‘the ones who have been grafted into Christ are the only ones able to seek a pure heart’. Of course there are many professing Christ with their lips, but haven’t been regenerated, i.e. have not the Life of Christ indwelling them.
Besides you don’t know who are in Him and who are tares.
John 15:5 NKJV
[5] "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Besides you don’t know who are in Him and who are tares.
John 15:5 NKJV
[5] "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If Jerusalem was destroyed in 70, where does history get the information about Bar-Kochba Revolt in Jerusalem in 132. That revolt did result in almost total destruction.
Please read my post if you reply. I said the Christian denomination called the Way died out in about 500 years, that has nothing to do with "opening the gospels".
The opening of the gospel to gentiles started at the time of Christ, even. At the beginning of Matthews there is a genealogy that includes four women, something unusual in Hebrew genealogy. They are Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba. Rahab was a gentile and Ruth a Maobite. The first gentile converted to Christianity was baptised by Simon Peter, an apostle of Christ.
Please read my post if you reply. I said the Christian denomination called the Way died out in about 500 years, that has nothing to do with "opening the gospels".
The opening of the gospel to gentiles started at the time of Christ, even. At the beginning of Matthews there is a genealogy that includes four women, something unusual in Hebrew genealogy. They are Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba. Rahab was a gentile and Ruth a Maobite. The first gentile converted to Christianity was baptised by Simon Peter, an apostle of Christ.
Those who have been grafted into Christ have received a new heart reflecting their new nature and therefore will ’naturally want to’ seek to be pleasing to Him as well as seek Him.
as far as ‘grafted in’ and ‘abide’ goes, those are synonymous as as Romans 8 shows.
Romans 8:9 CSB
[9] You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
as far as ‘grafted in’ and ‘abide’ goes, those are synonymous as as Romans 8 shows.
Romans 8:9 CSB
[9] You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
Please read my post if you reply. I said the Christian denomination called the Way died out in about 500 years, that has nothing to do with "opening the gospels". [/quote]Can you provide some documentation that they were called "the "Way" until for 500 years. Surely there is some documentation where this title was commonly used if this is so. It is an argument that they were called something and so surely someone called them that in their writings until that date.
That the women bore children does not mean they had received the Gospel. The Gospel or "good news" was actually news.
That the women bore children does not mean they had received the Gospel. The Gospel or "good news" was actually news.
Yes, the catholic church is and was deeply pagan. Look at its statues that are so openly worshipped that the toes of one in the Vatican have been worn off from kissing them...a statue of marble, mind you. The candles, waving the incense, the ceremonies and what is worn......deeply pagan. And yes, Constantine soon killed all those who refused to come under his authority just as the catholic church did for centuries. This is history. I am not making this up.
So is this what you see in every Christian everywhere, a natural seeking to be pleasing to Him? IF so, how is this manifest in all of them?
Do you make this verse into the ruler by which you know if someone has the Spirit of Christ or in the Spirit? What does this look like exactly?
The thing is this. I hear more and more christians and even preaching insisting these wonderful adjectives describe us, our motivation and deeds by faith. That is, we are like Jesus in word and deed not because our words and deeds actually match Jesus, but because some Bible verse promises that this is the case.
Do you make this verse into the ruler by which you know if someone has the Spirit of Christ or in the Spirit? What does this look like exactly?
The thing is this. I hear more and more christians and even preaching insisting these wonderful adjectives describe us, our motivation and deeds by faith. That is, we are like Jesus in word and deed not because our words and deeds actually match Jesus, but because some Bible verse promises that this is the case.
UPdate..here is some info on that revolt
In 132, the revolt led by Bar Kokhba quickly spread from central Judea across the country, cutting off the Roman garrison in Aelia Capitolina (Jerusalem).[
There was no city of Jerusalem in 132. It was in Judea, true, but not Jerusalem which was only a garrison of Roman soldier.
In 132, the revolt led by Bar Kokhba quickly spread from central Judea across the country, cutting off the Roman garrison in Aelia Capitolina (Jerusalem).[
There was no city of Jerusalem in 132. It was in Judea, true, but not Jerusalem which was only a garrison of Roman soldier.
Except there are numerous verses that tell us that we have a strong part to play. If we do nothing telling ourselves we are "trusting" it will result in little to no change. I can give you numerous verses that tell us what our part is. Jesus said if we keep his teaching, that is DO what he commands, then, and only then, will these changes take place. There are those who say they are trusting like the man who hid what Jesus gave him "trusting" in HIm which meant do nothing and there are those who took what Jesus gave them and trusted Him to produce the fruit if they labored in obeying Him.
The church used to sing "trust and obey" and now sings "trust and do nothing" which means nothing happens. A car is steered when it moves, not when it stands in the same place "waiting and trusting."
The church used to sing "trust and obey" and now sings "trust and do nothing" which means nothing happens. A car is steered when it moves, not when it stands in the same place "waiting and trusting."
I didn’t say we do nothing....once born again works automatically follow..we do it out of love....we follow Jesus and wait on him...it’s quite simple really....we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our hearts...he isn’t called “our helper” for nothing.......works do not save you.....that is a free gift from God.
I see, you are clueless when it comes to the new birth and hence your legalistic bent. I said ‘to those who are grafted into Christ.
No, I’m not a fruit inspector. I chose that verse because it sums up the perspective which Paul is taking in Romans 8.
This is closer to the rule I use...
Isaiah 8:20 NKJV
[20] To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Not sure what you are referring to. All I know is that 46 years Ago, my life went from hating and mocking God and His Son to loving and servin Him through the new birth...with and without adjectives.
No, I’m not a fruit inspector. I chose that verse because it sums up the perspective which Paul is taking in Romans 8.
This is closer to the rule I use...
Isaiah 8:20 NKJV
[20] To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Not sure what you are referring to. All I know is that 46 years Ago, my life went from hating and mocking God and His Son to loving and servin Him through the new birth...with and without adjectives.
We must be careful how we hear/understand or say we do . I would offer. The bible informs us he causes the increase if any .
The Holy Spirit inform us when he sees the blood not when or how we see it The word of God still sings making music in our hearts
John 3:29-31 King James Version (KJV) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
We can plant the seed and water it as we study to show our approved unto the teacher . But if we have success we understand it is him working in us causes the growth . We as new born again creatures are all considered as having little faith. Before our new birth, none, nothing, dead .
Many are deceived to believe mankind born of the corrupted are born with a faith that could please God .The bible teaches the opposite
Again un converted mankind has none, not little faith .
The word of God that does work in those who believe. By that work are shown that we are not to look to men like the apostles above that which is written puffing up the temporal things seen above the work of Christ's faith that comes from hearing God through the scriptures . Paul said God forbid that kind of blasphemy . We should ask our selves the same question.
What do we have that we have no freely received as a gift. And if we have received it "the gift of eternal life" why make God out to be liar.
1 Corinthians 4:6-7 King James Version (KJV) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in "us" not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
manna
The Holy Spirit inform us when he sees the blood not when or how we see it The word of God still sings making music in our hearts
John 3:29-31 King James Version (KJV) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
We can plant the seed and water it as we study to show our approved unto the teacher . But if we have success we understand it is him working in us causes the growth . We as new born again creatures are all considered as having little faith. Before our new birth, none, nothing, dead .
Many are deceived to believe mankind born of the corrupted are born with a faith that could please God .The bible teaches the opposite
Again un converted mankind has none, not little faith .
The word of God that does work in those who believe. By that work are shown that we are not to look to men like the apostles above that which is written puffing up the temporal things seen above the work of Christ's faith that comes from hearing God through the scriptures . Paul said God forbid that kind of blasphemy . We should ask our selves the same question.
What do we have that we have no freely received as a gift. And if we have received it "the gift of eternal life" why make God out to be liar.
1 Corinthians 4:6-7 King James Version (KJV) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in "us" not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
manna
I like the grafting analogy because I think it truly illustrates the process of two becoming one. In this process, both the branch and the Vine grow into eachother. However I think even though sometimes there is an attempt to graft, unification is incomplete. They branch may become disconnected, or just incompatible to conform. I think these situations are better shown in the “parable of the sower.” I think the desire of the branch to be part of the Vine will make the process successful. So in short I think that upon a decision to be One with God, the connection isn’t as instantaneous as some believe. It is a process requiring spiritual growth. There was many years I took it for granted that I was saved. I prayed, believed, got baptized and even led men’s ministry but still felt like a counterfeit. I was going through the motions but my heart was not changing. I remember the first time I actually felt the Holy Spirit and truly was awake. It literally felt like my body lifted off of the sofa where I was meditating/praying. It was since then instead of prayer being a monologue, I actually “hear” the voice of God. I became a new creation that day, not before. My heart filled with compassion and felt His Spirit flowing through me. Unless one experiences this transformation they will never understand it. I feel now I can never be separated from God. We are One.
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In the parable of the talents, the Master didn’t praise Himself for the increase. He didn’t blame himself for lack of increase in the one. The different choices the servants made showed the difference.
Huh? He who sees Him increase OBEYS him more often. Thats too ethereal to sort out. I’m a practical woman who sees obeying the direct instructions of the Holy Spirit to me as the goal. I don’t think much about who’s doing what in theory.
Huh? He who sees Him increase OBEYS him more often. Thats too ethereal to sort out. I’m a practical woman who sees obeying the direct instructions of the Holy Spirit to me as the goal. I don’t think much about who’s doing what in theory.
Dorthy says: Can you provide some documentation that they were called "the "Way" until for 500 years. Surely there is some documentation where this title was commonly used if this is so. It is an argument that they were called something and so surely someone called them that in their writings until that date.
That the women bore children does not mean they had received the Gospel. The Gospel or "good news" was actually news.[/QUOTE]
Blik says: Both you and I are Christians together, not in an argument I hope. We both are looking for the truth in the Lord.
"The Way" is mentioned in Acts 9:2; 19:9; 19:23; 22:4; and 24:14 and 22. I searched history to find out when this denomination died out.
I mentioned the women in the genealogy of Christ to point out there were gentiles in the background of Christ. We were speaking of when gentiles were first given the gospel, I think the gentiles in Christ's background points to that our Lord has always wanted gentiles included.
That the women bore children does not mean they had received the Gospel. The Gospel or "good news" was actually news.[/QUOTE]
Blik says: Both you and I are Christians together, not in an argument I hope. We both are looking for the truth in the Lord.
"The Way" is mentioned in Acts 9:2; 19:9; 19:23; 22:4; and 24:14 and 22. I searched history to find out when this denomination died out.
I mentioned the women in the genealogy of Christ to point out there were gentiles in the background of Christ. We were speaking of when gentiles were first given the gospel, I think the gentiles in Christ's background points to that our Lord has always wanted gentiles included.
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