The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[KJV1611]

I guess you guys believe that heaven really isn't fully heaven until we wait get our glorified bodies in the "future" resurrection? SMH

Edit: Maybe we should refer to the first entry into heaven as Heaven 1.0 and then when we get our glorified bodies we can call it Heaven 2.0.... the completed heaven.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Because it's meant to be a mystery, something that is meant to be hidden from the world but revealed to those who KEEP HIS WORDS.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
In your view Christians alive today are PREVENTING them which are asleep.

At the time period that the KJV1611 was written, the word "prevent" meant "precede, go before"... like explained in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

[quoting]

4 archaic
a: to be in readiness for (something, such as an occasion)
b: to meet or satisfy in advance
c: to act ahead of
d: to go or arrive before
[...]
First Known Use of prevent
15th century, in the meaning defined at sense 4c


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prevent

[end quoting]


____________

see here:

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm

____________


It means, "the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST"... because the "we which are alive and remain unto" shall not PRECEDE them in the event we call "our Rapture [/caught up / snatch / harpazo ]"... we will be "caught up [/away] TOGETHER with them" (i.e. AT THE SAME TIME... that is, as ONE BODY). The "caught up [/away]" action only happens ONCE.



So, it's just an old-timey way of saying "precede" (we will not PRECEDE them).

 

[cv5]

Are you calling me a liberal now?

I think your guilty conscience is accusing you. I'm not.

 

[KJV1611]

At the time period that the KJV1611 was written, the word "prevent" meant "precede, go before"... like explained in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

[quoting]

4 archaic
a: to be in readiness for (something, such as an occasion)
b: to meet or satisfy in advance
c: to act ahead of
d: to go or arrive before
[...]
First Known Use of prevent
15th century, in the meaning defined at sense 4c


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prevent

[end quoting]


____________

see here:

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm

____________


It means, "the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST"... because the "we which are alive and remain unto" shall not PRECEDE them in the event we call "our Rapture [/caught up / snatch / harpazo ]"... we will be "caught up [/away] TOGETHER with them" (i.e. AT THE SAME TIME... that is, as ONE BODY). The "caught up [/away]" action only happens ONCE.

prevent (v.)
early 15c., "act in anticipation of," from Latin praeventus, past participle of praevenire "come before, anticipate, hinder," in Late Latin also "to prevent," from prae "before" (see pre-) + venire "to come," from a suffixed form of PIE root *gwa- "to go, come." Originally literal; sense of "anticipate to hinder" was in Latin, but not recorded in English until 1540s.

Prevent means the same thing today that it meant in 1611.

 

[cv5]

One does not win a debate with bluster, insults, and derision, nor with mere claims of victory.

This never was a battle; it was a discussion founded on deep bias, fallacy, and outright error.

The debate was won with a vast overwhelming quantity of Scripture and an impeccable quality of exegesis. The preterist crew looked like they arrived from their circus clown car.
Honestly Dino....it really was a rout and useful to the onlookers. The Truth did indeed prevail. Praise You Jesus!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@KJV1611 , read the middle part of what you just quoted, where it says:

"in Late Latin also "to prevent," from prae "before" (see pre-) + venire "to come," from a suffixed form of PIE root *gwa- "to go, come." "



So, "to come/go before" (and in our verse in question, it says we [which are alive and remain unto] will "NOT").


My post just showed that same thing LISTED OUT.

And the bottom part of that definition found at M-W pointed out "4c" (for the "first known use of 'prevent' "). Basically, SAME AS THAT ^ (at top, here).

 

[KJV1611]

@KJV1611 , read the middle part of what you just quoted, where it says:

"in Late Latin also "to prevent," from prae "before" (see pre-) + venire "to come," from a suffixed form of PIE root *gwa- "to go, come." "



So, "to come/go before" (and in our verse in question, it says we [which are alive and remain unto] will "NOT").

This is your downfall TDW you wont let the bible say what it says. God handled the translation of his word for us, all we have to do is believe it.

How does God hide his secrets from the world but reveal them to us? By us KEEPING his word.

I'll be away for a while but I'll get back to you when I can.

 

[cv5]

Because it's meant to be a mystery, something that is meant to be hidden from the world but revealed to those who KEEP HIS WORDS.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

In your view Christians alive today are PREVENTING them which are asleep.

https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm

"Precede" is well established.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5348.htm

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This is your downfall TDW you wont let the bible say what it says. God handled the translation of his word for us, all we have to do is believe it.

How does God hide his secrets from the world but reveal them to us? By us KEEPING his word.

I'll be away for a while but I'll get back to you when I can.

Well, you're forgetting to "KEEP" the rest of the sentence, where Scripture itself tells us the REASON [for what the first part of the sentence says], and that is... BECAUSE we will be "CAUGHT UP/AWAY [SNATCHED/harpazo'd] TOGETHER with [with-G4862] them" (WHEN THEY will be, see!)

 

[biker]

I guess you guys believe that heaven really isn't fully heaven until we wait get our glorified bodies in the "future" resurrection? SMH

Edit: Maybe we should refer to the first entry into heaven as Heaven 1.0 and then when we get our glorified bodies we can call it Heaven 2.0.... the completed heaven.

I am not actually following this back n forth, but your answer did light a fire for me.

Do I live in victory because I am filled with the Holy Spirit while here on Earth?
Absolutely!

Do I have the favor of God upon my life because I not only Believe in God, but have accepted Him as my Lord and Savior?
Absolutely!

If I am Holy Spirit filled then anywhere I go does God go?
Absolutely!

If I am with 2 or more like Believers and we gather in Jesus Name is He there amongst us?
In Spirit, Absolutely!

Does the Kingdom of God exist and dwell within me as a Holy Spirit filled Believer in God?
Absolutely!




Is Earth the Kingdom of God?
NO!

Does the evils on this Earth represent God?
NO!


Therefore, is the Kingdom of God within me different than the physical Kingdom of God?
Absolutely!


I understand what you're saying, but this Earth is not the place a true Believer wants to be.

And this Earth is getting worse every day. Did you notice what has been happening with the police brutality and murders and the pitting of the races against one another and the recent rallies taking place? That is far from Earth being in a good place! And as the Election draws nearer, humanity is only going to get uglier.

 

[cv5]

Tell me more...

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them.
(Mic 2:12-13)

If Israel is a whore, God will still take her back as depicted in Hosea. His gifts and calling are irrevocable. Rom 11.

God's unfailing love for and ultimate redemption of Israel is undoubledly certain, yet paradoxically despised by the preterists and amillenialists. I would certainly call that a red flag at the very least.

 

[cv5]

Do you know of any scriptures that say we are disembodied spirits when we go to heaven?

https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-8.htm

OK....have fun with that. And yes there are plenty of other similar references. And don't forget Paul was provided first hand information about this, and the rapture, and a whole lot of other things from Lord Jesus Messiah Himself by direct revelation. So lets insure to reign in our florid imagination shall we?

 

[KJV1611]

https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm

"Precede" is well established.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5348.htm

So do you think the Old Testament saints are still hanging out in Abraham’s bosom waiting for us last days Christians to be raptured?

If so, why are we preventing them from going on to heaven? Are they not fully redeemed yet?

 

[KJV1611]

I am not actually following this back n forth, but your answer did light a fire for me.

Do I live in victory because I am filled with the Holy Spirit while here on Earth?
Absolutely!

Do I have the favor of God upon my life because I not only Believe in God, but have accepted Him as my Lord and Savior?
Absolutely!

If I am Holy Spirit filled then anywhere I go does God go?
Absolutely!

If I am with 2 or more like Believers and we gather in Jesus Name is He there amongst us?
In Spirit, Absolutely!

Does the Kingdom of God exist and dwell within me as a Holy Spirit filled Believer in God?
Absolutely!




Is Earth the Kingdom of God?
NO!

Does the evils on this Earth represent God?
NO!


Therefore, is the Kingdom of God within me different than the physical Kingdom of God?
Absolutely!


I understand what you're saying, but this Earth is not the place a true Believer wants to be.

And this Earth is getting worse every day. Did you notice what has been happening with the police brutality and murders and the pitting of the races against one another and the recent rallies taking place? That is far from Earth being in a good place! And as the Election draws nearer, humanity is only going to get uglier.

I totally agree, the heaven here is not the ultimate goal but this heaven is what most prophecy verses are all talking about.

 

[KJV1611]

Well, you're forgetting to "KEEP" the rest of the sentence, where Scripture itself tells us the REASON [for what the first part of the sentence says], and that is... BECAUSE we will be "CAUGHT UP/AWAY [SNATCHED/harpazo'd] TOGETHER with [with-G4862] them" (WHEN THEY will be, see!)

No I haven’t forgotten the rest of the verse. The dead in Christ rose with Christ, then those that are alive after that, when we die we are caught up to heaven to be with the lord. We don’t go to Abraham’s bosom, we go straight to be with the lord.

 

[Guojing]

They had until 70 AD latest.

As I have said using Romans 11, the gentiles were originally supposed to be blessed thru Israel.

God needed to become enemies with Israel first, before the gentiles could be blessed thru the fall of Israel

 

[Guojing]

And to make matters worse, a certain number of Gentiles need to be saved and then, as my German friends say, schwupp-de-whoop, all the Jews alive will get saved. Bummer for the Jews living and dying condemned until then just because the “quota” isn’t fulfilled though. I feel for them.

It is way harder to be saved during the tribulation than now.

You have to believe in Jesus and keep the commandments thru those 7 years. The chief being not take the mark of the beast (rev 14:11-12)

I don’t understand why you keep insisting the Jews then are more fortunate. If I am currently a Jew now, being saved under the current grace dispensation is so much easier

 

[cv5]

No I haven’t forgotten the rest of the verse. The dead in Christ rose with Christ, then those that are alive after that, when we die we are caught up to heaven to be with the lord. We don’t go to Abraham’s bosom, we go straight to be with the lord.

"Rose"?
Correction "will rise".

Furthermore you may have failed to notice that verse 16 indicates that all, the sum total, of every Christian in the history of the world, shall altogether be raised..... together...as ONE BODY.

1 Corinthians chapter 15:52 once again makes this phenomenon perfectly clear. ALL of the Christians who have fallen asleep will be raised altogether and instantaneously.

"in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

Your proposal that Christians are raised someway, somehow, single file into their eternal new glorious bodies is completely bogus.

 

[cv5]

It is way harder to be saved during the tribulation than now.

You have to believe in Jesus and keep the commandments thru those 7 years. The chief being not take the mark of the beast (rev 14:11-12)

I don’t understand why you keep insisting the Jews then are more fortunate. If I am currently a Jew now, being saved under the current grace dispensation is so much easier

I tend to agree with your assertion. Converting during the great tribulation a.k.a. tribulation saints is an almost certain death sentence.

 

[KJV1611]

"Rose"?
Correction "will rise".

Furthermore you may have failed to notice that verse 16 indicates that all, the sum total, of every Christian in the history of the world, shall altogether be raised..... together...as ONE BODY.

1 Corinthians chapter 15:52 once again makes this phenomenon perfectly clear. ALL of the Christians who have fallen asleep will be raised altogether and instantaneously.

"in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

Your proposal that Christians are raised someway, somehow, single file into their eternal new glorious bodies is completely bogus.

The Old Testament saints rose on the day Christ rose and they are in heaven now. This is not a future event. The rest of us will be changed as soon is we leave this body.