Catholicism vs Protestantism
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the words
pray / prayer
can have two different, though related, meanings.
usually when English speakers say the word
pray
they mean
to ask something from a deity.
it can also mean simply to ask something from someone.
this meaning is usually considered archaic.
so, big picture, is it okay to ask someone to pray for or with you?
virtually all Christians will say yes.
the idea of intercessory prayer is very popular among those Protestants who frequently use the words "spiritual warfare".
the question then is whether it's a good idea to ask someone who is no longer alive on this Earth to pray for you.
as far as I know, the Bible doesn't say either way.
do people who aren't alive on Earth know what's going on here?
possibly,
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore let us also, seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.
pray / prayer
can have two different, though related, meanings.
usually when English speakers say the word
pray
they mean
to ask something from a deity.
it can also mean simply to ask something from someone.
this meaning is usually considered archaic.
so, big picture, is it okay to ask someone to pray for or with you?
virtually all Christians will say yes.
the idea of intercessory prayer is very popular among those Protestants who frequently use the words "spiritual warfare".
the question then is whether it's a good idea to ask someone who is no longer alive on this Earth to pray for you.
as far as I know, the Bible doesn't say either way.
do people who aren't alive on Earth know what's going on here?
possibly,
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore let us also, seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.
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no, I do not believe it is the right thing to do.
again, is the statement below true or false?
32They worshiped the Lord, but they also appointed all sorts of their own people to officiate for them as priests in the shrines at the high places
https://biblehub.com/niv/2_kings/17.htm
again, is the statement below true or false?
32They worshiped the Lord, but they also appointed all sorts of their own people to officiate for them as priests in the shrines at the high places
https://biblehub.com/niv/2_kings/17.htm
B
B
A few posts ago you were claiming it was a symbol.
Now you want to take it literally.
The verses I gave show that those in heaven present our prayers (requests) to God.
We also know that those in heaven are aware of what is happening on the earth (Heb 12:1, Rev 6:9-11)
We are also told that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective (Jas 5;16). Who is more righteous than those in heaven?
Jesus uses the image of the vine, with us as the branches.
“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (John 15:4-7)
Are those saints who die cut off from Christ and thrown into the fire? Or are they still abiding in Christ and still bearing much fruit? Is Jesus still doing for them whatever they ask?
Now you want to take it literally.
The verses I gave show that those in heaven present our prayers (requests) to God.
We also know that those in heaven are aware of what is happening on the earth (Heb 12:1, Rev 6:9-11)
We are also told that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective (Jas 5;16). Who is more righteous than those in heaven?
Jesus uses the image of the vine, with us as the branches.
“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (John 15:4-7)
Are those saints who die cut off from Christ and thrown into the fire? Or are they still abiding in Christ and still bearing much fruit? Is Jesus still doing for them whatever they ask?
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12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
My brother, cloud of witnesses can be angels or devils, it doesn't say saints in heaven able to see or hear us.
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
It doesn't say Mary or saint able to hear billion of Catholic pray to them
Is death saint abide in Jesus, I think so, their fruits is love to God and love to their fellow death saint, but I don't think they able to help us.
I never hear st Luke ghost help cancer patient
My brother, cloud of witnesses can be angels or devils, it doesn't say saints in heaven able to see or hear us.
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
It doesn't say Mary or saint able to hear billion of Catholic pray to them
Is death saint abide in Jesus, I think so, their fruits is love to God and love to their fellow death saint, but I don't think they able to help us.
I never hear st Luke ghost help cancer patient
B
Look at the context. That verse is preceded by an attesting of the faith of the saints of the OT. - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses…
vs 11:13 says "These all died in faith, not having received what was promised,".
What was promised? Answer - heaven!
Then vs 39.40 "And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." They had to wait for Jesus to open heaven but now it is open for us and for them. They have now received what was promised and are in heaven.
When scripture continues in the next verse "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses.." The witnesses are not devils (there are none in heaven) and not angels. They are the saints of the OT. The Greek word used for 'witness' means to give testimony to a judge. What Judge are they giving testimony too? - There can be only one Judge, God Himself, and they are speaking to Him on our behalf.
I didn't suggest that text did. I suggested it showed that they are aware of what is happening on earth.
After death to life on this earth those in heaven are alive. They are not asleep in Jesus or elsewhere.
Scripture is clear on that as I have shown.
Also Heb 12 continues vs 22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
There is a lot going on in heaven - a festal gathering.
What?
vs 11:13 says "These all died in faith, not having received what was promised,".
What was promised? Answer - heaven!
Then vs 39.40 "And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." They had to wait for Jesus to open heaven but now it is open for us and for them. They have now received what was promised and are in heaven.
When scripture continues in the next verse "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses.." The witnesses are not devils (there are none in heaven) and not angels. They are the saints of the OT. The Greek word used for 'witness' means to give testimony to a judge. What Judge are they giving testimony too? - There can be only one Judge, God Himself, and they are speaking to Him on our behalf.
I didn't suggest that text did. I suggested it showed that they are aware of what is happening on earth.
After death to life on this earth those in heaven are alive. They are not asleep in Jesus or elsewhere.
Scripture is clear on that as I have shown.
Also Heb 12 continues vs 22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
There is a lot going on in heaven - a festal gathering.
What?
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again, if you believe that God says that the statement below is false, then we don't have a basis for Bible oriented discussion, imo.
32They worshiped the Lord, but they also appointed all sorts of their own people to officiate for them as priests in the shrines at the high places.
https://biblehub.com/niv/2_kings/17.htm
32They worshiped the Lord, but they also appointed all sorts of their own people to officiate for them as priests in the shrines at the high places.
https://biblehub.com/niv/2_kings/17.htm
Christian are witnesses, when they life, after die, their live story are witnesses
Apostle Paul was witness for Jesus, now his letter is witness for Jesus, it doesn't mean he able to preach after he die, if so I will come to that church to hear him.
But they not preach here on earth anymore, if so where, when, give me the schedule brother, I will come.
Apostle Paul was witness for Jesus, now his letter is witness for Jesus, it doesn't mean he able to preach after he die, if so I will come to that church to hear him.
But they not preach here on earth anymore, if so where, when, give me the schedule brother, I will come.
I know you try to defend catholic
You try to say that ccc 841 is perfect will of God and Islam worship true god, but you have to know ccc 841 is lie, true god is trinity and for the sake of catholic you ignore the fact that Muslim don't believe Jesus as a god
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
You try to say that ccc 841 is perfect will of God and Islam worship true god, but you have to know ccc 841 is lie, true god is trinity and for the sake of catholic you ignore the fact that Muslim don't believe Jesus as a god
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
I hear what you're saying.
if your interpretation is that God wants us to believe that the statement below is false, then we don't have a basis for Bible oriented discussion, imo.
32They worshiped the Lord, but they also appointed all sorts of their own people to officiate for them as priests in the shrines at the high places.
https://biblehub.com/niv/2_kings/17.htm
if your interpretation is that God wants us to believe that the statement below is false, then we don't have a basis for Bible oriented discussion, imo.
32They worshiped the Lord, but they also appointed all sorts of their own people to officiate for them as priests in the shrines at the high places.
https://biblehub.com/niv/2_kings/17.htm
B
As I said, the Greek word used for 'witness' means to give testimony to a judge. What Judge are they giving testimony too? - There can be only one Judge, God Himself, and they are speaking to Him on our behalf.
According to Strong and Thayer the Greek word has a wide range of meanings. The meaning you suggest is only one of them.
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