To those of you dating...

BenFTW · Jun 17, 2020

I have question for you. Why don’t you wait upon the Lord? Hear me out. I am not saying the Lord can’t bring someone to a person through dating. I am asking you why you have chosen to date instead of waiting for a person, and thereby exposed yourself to the pains of dating?

If you asked the Lord for a spouse, and God would let you know who that specific person is (which He can and does do), why would you subject yourself to the dating process or scene?

I know people will say “waiting upon the Lord” isn’t for everyone, and they will justify their reason for dating because “God doesn’t promise a spouse.” But God does grant the desires of the righteous, and if you have a desire for a spouse, will He not grant it? In His providence, He will. In His timing, He will. This is about trusting in the Lord. Scripture says to delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.

So, if God would provide you a spouse by you trusting in His timing and providence, and Him letting you know who it is when you meet the person, why would you subject yourself to dating?

I do not think those that wait upon the Lord are any better than you. Rather, I am saddened to see people, more specifically sisters in Christ, go through heartache and pain, being dishonored, and mistreated. Devalued. They deserve better. You deserve better. I ask, why will you not wait upon the Lord?

Again, I understand it may be different for everybody. However, wouldn’t waiting upon the Lord be the ideal? I mean, not everyone’s ideal as people have preferences on timing and when they want to be with their spouse; where as they want to be with someone today, for God it may be months from now or a year (if not years from now depending upon your age).

If you are still dating, still haven’t found Mr Right or the girl of your dreams, what stops you from now putting a pause on dating, putting your desires before God in prayer, and waiting for Him to bring that person into your life? Is this not realistic for you?

BenFTW · Jun 17, 2020

Let me add, as I feel led. Some of you may be dating, but you should judge righteously. What do you think your Heavenly Father thinks of the man you’re with or the men you’ve been looking at? You men too, what is the character of the women you are gazing at? Shouldn’t you see, on some level, if you have the blessing of the Lord?

Now, God is always with you and He strengthens you, so in actuality we have the right to be with whomever we choose, regardless of the consequence. Yet, God knowing all, would you not think it wise to seek the Lord’s counsel? This is what I mean by His blessing, not only in terms of the go ahead, but in His foreknowledge if this is a good thing for the both of you.

God wants to be in every aspect of our life, and it is wise to seek Him on these matters.

Magenta · Jun 17, 2020

How does one determine where a relationship is going if not through interactive exposure, also known as dating? Am I missing something? Are people to jump from meeting a person directly into marriage, with no time spent getting to know each other?

BenFTW · Jun 17, 2020

Magenta said:

What if you only dated the person God has for you? Meaning, you know who they are to you, and pursued them in knowledge of God’s providence. You still can get to know each other, and court them even, towards marriage.

Instead of going through a process of elimination by dating (multiple people), you would wait (haha) for the right date. That’s funny. The right date, both in terms of person and timing. 😄

Magenta · Jun 17, 2020

BenFTW said:

Then when the relationship ends even though you thought this person was brought to you by God and that you were led to them by God and that it was God's love that caused your hearts to open up to each other and the relationship eventually ends for one reason or another anyways? Outsiders are still looking at you like you did not wait on the Lord after all

JamOn · Jun 17, 2020

BenFTW said:

Who does multiple dating most don’t think that’s proper dating anyhow, is that a new age thing

BenFTW · Jun 17, 2020

Magenta said:

That’s a very cynical perspective and puts into question the faithfulness of God to prepare two people for each other to have a lasting covenant. 🙂

Mark 10:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Marriage is for life, joined together by God. I pray to God to have a lasting covenant, to grow old with my wife to be, to age gracefully, and in old age to be able bodied and sharp minded. To even die in old age side by side, peacefully. I believe He grants the desires of the righteous and what He puts together lasts by His preparation. 🥰

JamOn · Jun 17, 2020

Then there’s the question does God promise anyone a spouse.

BenFTW · Jun 17, 2020

JamOn said:

Did you read the original post? 🤔 This is addressed, the answer is God’s providence and willingness to grant the desires of the righteous.

JamOn · Jun 17, 2020

BenFTW said:

is the desire for a personal human companion edifying

JamOn · Jun 17, 2020

The right companionship usely comes when you least expect it, how can a person least expect it.

Magenta · Jun 17, 2020

BenFTW said:

How is my perspective more cynical than yours to claim because relationships end that the person had not waited on God? Do you really believe God intends every relationship to end in marriage and until death you do part? What you are proposing seems precipitous.

i.e., meet someone and marry them straight off because you think it may be God's plan for you.

BenFTW · Jun 17, 2020

Magenta said:

The question is, do they intend to have a relationship that leads to marriage and death do you part, and if they do, why are they not waiting upon the Lord and His providence instead of subjecting themselves to the pains of dating? Again, people are free to date; I am asking why they don’t wait, instead? Why go through the process of examination and elimination when they can just wait for God’s providence?

You are jumping to conclusions that I didn’t even make, in regards to failed relationships and waiting upon the Lord. That’s coming out of left field Magenta. I said your post was cynical because it instantly went negative about waiting upon the Lord, and saying when the relationship fails people will say you didn’t wait, and a person only thought the relationship was from God. Which, as I was reading it, was awful to read because you’re sowing doubt and discouragement into people’s hopes. Also, knowing and thinking something is from the Lord are two separate things entirely.

I don’t mean to be combative Magenta, I just found your post pessimistic and dismissive of a work of God, where He grants the desires of the righteous. It isn’t fairyland, it’s faith. It’s trust.

I’m not sure why you instantly approached this discussion from that angle, but let’s not get sidetracked from the main question: Why would you date looking for a spouse instead of waiting for a spouse, waiting upon the Lord?

Magenta · Jun 17, 2020

BenFTW said:

I am not sowing seeds of doubt and discouragement into people's hopes. Jeepers. Negative much? Claiming I am dismissive of the work of God because I affirm that getting to know whether someone is right for you or not is being realistic, also, very negative on your part. I did not say the person only thought it was from God, either. Excuse me for not adding all the right words for you. Hoping, and planning, and wishing and dreaming. How's that? You invest everything and if it does not work out (that is to say, end in marriage) people are going to say JUST LIKE YOU ARE NOW that they have not waited upon the Lord. Poor Meg

BenFTW · Jun 17, 2020

Magenta said:

I am sorry if my response comes off too strong, Magenta. Getting to know if a person is right for you may indeed seem realistic, but trusting in who God provides to you and confirms to you as His providence is also very realistic and in getting to know them, you will see that God knew exactly what He was doing. 🙂 So instead of figuring out if they are right for you, in waiting on the Lord, you will see they are right for you. That’s the difference.

I don’t know why you are suggesting I am deciding if something is or is not waiting upon the Lord depending upon the success of the relationship. I didn’t say anything of the sort, lol. 😅 I may have my opinions, but I did not express them here.

Subhumanoidal · Jun 17, 2020

The number of people who are positive the person they are with is from God, but then it doesn't work out, is rather high.
This suggestion may seem like some clear spiritual answer, but at the end of the day people can hear what they want, no matter how close they are to God.
Look at Amy Grant, married to a good Christian man, has children with him, then up and leaves him because she was certain she was not with who God wanted her to be with.
It doesn't seem there is really one correct way to find someone.
Some wait and wait and wait and may never find anyone. Others date around and find someone they stay with till death. And sometimes the opposite is true of each. Both can lead to success or failure in finding someone, so how can one be right and one wrong?

seoulsearch · Jun 17, 2020

BenFTW said:

Hi Ben! I apologize in advance -- you really have my brain cranking this morning, and this is going to be a long post.

I understand what you're saying, as I've heard this advice more times than I can count during my prolonged years of singleness. But in my lifetime of growing up in the church, I've also found that there seems to be this Great Belief that if You Just Go By All The Rules or Do All The Things The Most Pious Believers Tell You, God is Going to Bless You With Your Ultimate Christian Happy Ending!

The sad part is, that's just not true. I have known many people who waited on the Lord, then believed the person they were marrying was the one God directed them to marry, and the results were disastrous. I'm thinking in particular of one woman who asked God about a man she was seeing and believed he was the one God wanted her to marry; they got married, and she found out that he expressed his anger through severe physical beatings. After many years of trying (and many beatings later), the marriage eventually ended.

I'm thinking of another solid Christian woman who stood at her wedding reception and announced to the guests that God had brought her and her husband together, and she felt so blessed to have this man. She knew he had a porn addiction before they married, but believed God would help him and them together have victory over it. He left her not too many years after the wedding for an ex-girlfriend who had been more sexually "adventurous" than he found his good Christian wife to be after they got married.

I know you spoke about asking God what He thinks of the character of the people we are seeing, and that's perfectly sound advice, but it very rarely goes by the book. For even the most devout Christian, things such as looks, money, security, and attention will inevitably influence our attractions. And one of the reasons I think many Christians are single is because they expect to find a spouse who is as perfect as Christ, which we all know is impossible but yet somehow think we can hold out for anyway.

I think it's also important to remember that "waiting on the Lord" may manifest in different ways to different people, and neither one may be wrong. I realize that "waiting on the Lord" seems to be an understanding that a single person will sit quietly at home, read their Bible, talk to only people of the same gender when online (gotta play it safe, after all), cram in all the volunteer/service work they can, and then miraculously wait and hope that God will send that miracle person right through the door of the one church they've attended all their lives.

And I'm sure that works for some people. But God writes everyone's story a little differently.

May I use an example to illustrate this? Let's say that Sister Sue and Brother Bob have been married for several years and desperately want a child. Sister Sue and Brother Bob have fallen into a comfortable but loving routine of having sex twice a week, and they are "waiting on the Lord," as all the good Christians have told them to, for God to bless one of their private times with the miraculous conception of a child. They do nothing else to change their schedule or what they're doing(except maybe up their service at church,) but continue to pray and "wait upon the Lord."

Now let's say that Sister Sally and Brother Billy are in a similar situation, praying regularly that God would bless them with a child, and they too are faithfully "waiting on the Lord." However, Sister Sally and Brother Billy, after much prayer and consideration, decide they want to take a more proactive approach. They start reading and researching about fertility, making changes in their diets, lifestyle, and scheduling/frequency of their private times in order to increase their chances of conception. They also start calling adoption agencies, filling out applications, and exploring what it would take to become adoptive parents as well.

Yes, each couple might have a lot of heartaches and "false starts" -- they might suffer miscarriages, be absolutely devastated. For the couple seeking adoption, they might be told they are on the brink of adopting but that the biological parent changed their mind at the last minute, and now they have to start the process all over.

There might be emotional attachment, floods of tears, and the thought of, "WHY are we going through this, Lord? WHY? When will you answer?"

Now I know God can do anything. And if He willed it, each of these couples could literally become pregnant overnight. But statistically and realistically speaking, which couple is more likely to become parents, and in a shorter amount of time?

Now -- which one of these couples would YOU personally say is "TRULY" "waiting on the Lord"?

The one that is doing the least on their own, therefore taking less risk of disappointment and being able to say that it's "all on the Lord" instead of their own works? But what if the more proactive couple gives all the glory to God and praises Him for blessing them with the means to be able to explore other options?

I would argue that BOTH couples are waiting on the Lord, and neither is doing anything wrong, unless they're somehow doing something that God is telling them not to do. I would also argue that each couple's method might work for them, and neither couple is wrong for sticking with their own game plan -- what works for one might not work for the other, and if God is ok with that, it does a great disservice to tell either couple that they should be more like the other.

I'm going to stop here for now because I know this is already an excessively long post. I understand very well what you're saying about sparing ourselves a lot of pain and attachments, but I personally believe that different plans of action will work for different people, and there is no One Spiritual Size Fits All. If people are able to see that each married couple in this example is waiting on the Lord in their own way, I think the same respect should also be given to single people as well in that there might be different plans of action.

However, I most definitely agree that sometimes there are things we can do to tweak our approaches that might save us a lot of heartache, but I also believe that it's an individual matter, and not something that can all fall under one body of general advice.

To me, this is one of the most painful and frustrating things I've experienced as a Christian -- that I am an individual, and one's prescription for someone else just might not be the right one for me. But if I don't properly "fall in line" with everyone else or what the majority tell me to do, I'm automatically rebelling and sinning against God. I'm not telling anyone to rebel against God -- I'm simply saying that just because someone tells you, "This is how you should follow God (you should do exactly what I think or what I'm doing)," it doesn't mean that they know how to direct you in the plan God has for your life.

Thanks for getting me thinking this morning, Ben. I'll probably make another post soon -- I just need a little time to recharge my batteries and think of how I'm going to word it.

cinder · Jun 17, 2020

Ben, you're doing an amazing job of parroting the Christian party line that many of us singles who grew up in church (especially in my generation) have heard from the time we hit puberty. And a rather amazing number of us are either still single or no longer in church.
The first question that should be asked of your position is how do you define dating; what do you mean by the word? These days that can mean anything from a one night stand hook up, to a person you regularly hang with and fool around with, to a very intentional relationship to explore the possibility of marriage. And for some of our older members when they think of dating they think of going to dinner and a movie with someone just to get to know them better to decide if they want to make any sort of relational commitment. And most of us will have very different views on one night stands vs. kind of liking someone and spending a couple hours with them to try to determine if you want to take things farther.

That may answer the second question that we should ask of your position which is why do you contrast an inactive waiting on God as the spiritual option with dating as a foolish option, rather than opening a discussion on how to date wisely and in a Godly manner rather than foolishly and in a worldly manner? It seems like you're setting up a false and leagalistic dichotomy that need not exist, since the more relevant questions are how do we conduct all our relationships with others in a godly manner and serve people rather than using them? And perhaps how do we know when the benefits we're receiving from a relationship are balanced with our giving to that relationship?

The other glaring flaw in your position is this repetition of God's providence and willingness to grant the desires of the righteous. This sounds way too much like what I'm going to call genie theology: the view that God is this cosmic genie who will grant our wishes. More importantly this "spiritual advice" to take no active steps and just wait for God to do it all sounds utterly ridiculous when applied to other significant areas of life. Examples:

Want a new job - don't look online, send in applications, or try to get any interviews. Just wait on God and pray until he brings along the perfect job for you.

Want to go to college- again no need for applications or letters of recommendation, just wait for the right college to come recruit you without doing anything to try to attract their attention specifically

Want a new _________ - be spiritual and just pray until it falls in your lap without you putting forth any effort at all beyond prayer because if you actually work for it you might think you had something to do with it

While I will not question God's ability to come through for us in miraculous ways when there are no alternatives, I don't expect him to do for me what I'm perfectly capable of doing for myself. That's pushing dependence into laziness and lack of development and growth, and I don't think that is honoring God.

BenFTW · Jun 17, 2020

seoulsearch said:

Hi Ben! I apologize in advance -- you really have my brain cranking this morning, and this is going to be a long post.

I understand what you're saying, as I've heard this advice more times than I can count during my prolonged years of singleness. But in my lifetime of growing up in the church, I've also found that there seems to be this Great Belief that if You Just Go By All The Rules or Do All The Things The Most Pious Believers Tell You, God is Going to Bless You With Your Ultimate Christian Happy Ending!

The sad part is, that's just not true. I have known many people who waited on the Lord, then believed the person they were marrying was the one God directed them to marry, and the results were disastrous. I'm thinking in particular of one woman who asked God about a man she was seeing and believed he was the one God wanted her to marry; they got married, and she found out that he expressed his anger through severe physical beatings. After many years of trying (and many beatings later), the marriage eventually ended.

I'm thinking of another solid Christian woman who stood at her wedding reception and announced to the guests that God had brought her and her husband together, and she felt so blessed to have this man. She knew he had a porn addiction before they married, but believed God would help him and them together have victory over it. He left her not too many years after the wedding for an ex-girlfriend who had been more sexually "adventurous" than he found his good Christian wife to be after they got married.

I know you spoke about asking God what He thinks of the character of the people we are seeing, and that's perfectly sound advice, but it very rarely goes by the book. For even the most devout Christian, things such as looks, money, security, and attention will inevitably influence our attractions. And one of the reasons I think many Christians are single is because they expect to find a spouse who is as perfect as Christ, which we all know is impossible but yet somehow think we can hold out for anyway.

I think it's also important to remember that "waiting on the Lord" may manifest in different ways to different people, and neither one may be wrong. I realize that "waiting on the Lord" seems to be an understanding that a single person will sit quietly at home, read their Bible, talk to only people of the same gender when online (gotta play it safe, after all), cram in all the volunteer/service work they can, and then miraculously wait and hope that God will send that miracle person right through the door of the one church they've attended all their lives.

And I'm sure that works for some people. But God writes everyone's story a little differently.

May I use an example to illustrate this? Let's say that Sister Sue and Brother Bob have been married for several years and desperately want a child. Sister Sue and Brother Bob have fallen into a comfortable but loving routine of having sex twice a week, and they are "waiting on the Lord," as all the good Christians have told them to, for God to bless one of their private times with the miraculous conception of a child. They do nothing else to change their schedule or what they're doing(except maybe up their service at church,) but continue to pray and "wait upon the Lord."

Now let's say that Sister Sally and Brother Billy are in a similar situation, praying regularly that God would bless them with a child, and they too are faithfully "waiting on the Lord." However, Sister Sally and Brother Billy, after much prayer and consideration, decide they want to take a more proactive approach. They start reading and researching about fertility, making changes in their diets, lifestyle, and scheduling/frequency of their private times in order to increase their chances of conception. They also start calling adoption agencies, filling out applications, and exploring what it would take to become adoptive parents as well.

Yes, each couple might have a lot of heartaches and "false starts" -- they might suffer miscarriages, be absolutely devastated. For the couple seeking adoption, they might be told they are on the brink of adopting but that the biological parent changed their mind at the last minute, and now they have to start the process all over.

There might be emotional attachment, floods of tears, and the thought of, "WHY are we going through this, Lord? WHY? When will you answer?"

Now I know God can do anything. And if He willed it, each of these couples could literally become pregnant overnight. But statistically and realistically speaking, which couple is more likely to become parents, and in a shorter amount of time?

Now -- which one of these couples would YOU personally say is "TRULY" "waiting on the Lord"?

The one that is doing the least on their own, therefore taking less risk of disappointment and being able to say that it's "all on the Lord" instead of their own works? But what if the more proactive couple gives all the glory to God and praises Him for blessing them with the means to be able to explore other options?

I would argue that BOTH couples are waiting on the Lord, and neither is doing anything wrong, unless they're somehow doing something that God is telling them not to do. I would also argue that each couple's method might work for them, and neither couple is wrong for sticking with their own game plan -- what works for one might not work for the other, and if God is ok with that, it does a great disservice to tell either couple that they should be more like the other.

I'm going to stop here for now because I know this is already an excessively long post. I understand very well what you're saying about sparing ourselves a lot of pain and attachments, but I personally believe that different plans of action will work for different people, and there is no One Spiritual Size Fits All. If people are able to see that each married couple in this example is waiting on the Lord in their own way, I think the same respect should also be given to single people as well in that there might be different plans of action.

However, I most definitely agree that sometimes there are things we can do to tweak our approaches that might save us a lot of heartache, but I also believe that it's an individual matter, and not something that can all fall under one body of general advice.

To me, this is one of the most painful and frustrating things I've experienced as a Christian -- that I am an individual, and one's prescription for someone else just might not be the right one for me. But if I don't properly "fall in line" with everyone else or what the majority tell me to do, I'm automatically rebelling and sinning against God. I'm not telling anyone to rebel against God -- I'm simply saying that just because someone tells you, "This is how you should follow God (you should do exactly what I think or what I'm doing)," it doesn't mean that they know how to direct you in the plan God has for your life.

Thanks for getting me thinking this morning, Ben. I'll probably make another post soon -- I just need a little time to recharge my batteries and think of how I'm going to word it.

Oh no. I got Seoulsearch started. 😅 ❤️

I would respect the decision of the dater and the person waiting.

In regards to “waiting upon the Lord” the only context I am using here is quite literally waiting for the person God will provide or lead you to pursue. So your analogy of the baby and waiting upon the Lord, isn’t exactly what I had in mind in this discussion. “Waiting upon the Lord” is waiting for His timing and providence. I’m sure we could wrap that concept up into baby making somehow but that draws our attention away from the discussion.

Now, the point of this discussion isn’t to say dating is ungodly, but it is to get to the root of why you choose dating over waiting (knowing fully well the tradeoff).

I understand both methods are perfectly fine to partake in. I am asking you why you choose your particular method.

The horror stories of what people think is God’s plan and they come to find out that it isn’t is sad, but not indicative of the method being unsound (that method being waiting upon the Lord). Rather what is to be put into question is the reasoning of said individuals, and how they got it so wrong.

You are correct that God can use both methods, so neither option is outside the will of God and His providence. God could have mercy on the woman who has had many failed relationships through the dating process and has her meet a stand up guy. Again, His timing. It’s just unfortunate that she endured all of that suffering to get there, when she could’ve equally chosen to wait. That’s my point.

BenFTW · Jun 17, 2020

cinder said:

I didn’t say one option was more spiritual than the other, or present a legalistic dichotomy. As for godly dating, and dating in a wise manner, that is an option people have available to them. However, it still doesn’t answer the question of why. Why date instead of wait?

I would also ask, does godly dating take its toll as well? Does it have its let downs? Does it contain rejection? Are there still cons associated with it? If so, why date instead of wait?

You seem to think that relying on God’s providence is making God out to be a genie. At least you expressed it in that manner. There are many verses, that I even alluded to in my post, that show God grants the desires of the righteous and that He is good to us.

James 1:17
King James Version
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning

God gives good and perfect gifts, He gives us the desires of our heart (especially those who delight in the Lord). I am giving you scripture, not a genie theology. “Cast your cares upon the Lord because He cares for you.” These are things in life we can rely on God for. Yes there are things we can do in preparation, no doubt, but God equips us. Even in all of your examples, God can show favor in each of them. College, job, and admittance. God favors the righteous, that is scriptural.

To those of you dating...

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