Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?

[biker]

The Prologue to the Gospel
1 In the beginning[a] was the Word, and the Word was with God,[b] and the Word was fully God.[c]

Thank You!

First off, I am using:
Online Greek Bible
greekbible.com
Ancient Greek (biblical / classical) material including: Online texts (accented Greek New Testament), Shopping for printed materials, and Resources for learning and studying Ancient Greek.

It guarantees authentic Greek from when these manuscripts were written.
Then it breaks each verse down from the Greek to any language (English)

And then I am verifying the translation to other greek translators.

So, it breaks down like this:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Ἐν = 1) in, by, with etc.

ἀρχῇ = 1) beginning, origin 2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader 3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause 4) the extremity of a thing 4a) of the corners of a sail 5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy 5a) of angels and demons

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

πρὸς = 1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to

τὸν = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.


Which is broken down to:

Original
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
Translation
At the beginning was the word, and the word was to God, and God was the word.

 

[biker]

Even the sblg claims same thing:

1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Thank You!

First off, I am using:
Online Greek Bible
greekbible.com
Ancient Greek (biblical / classical) material including: Online texts (accented Greek New Testament), Shopping for printed materials, and Resources for learning and studying Ancient Greek.

It guarantees authentic Greek from when these manuscripts were written.
Then it breaks each verse down from the Greek to any language (English)

And then I am verifying the translation to other greek translators.

So, it breaks down like this:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Ἐν = 1) in, by, with etc.

ἀρχῇ = 1) beginning, origin 2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader 3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause 4) the extremity of a thing 4a) of the corners of a sail 5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy 5a) of angels and demons

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

πρὸς = 1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to

τὸν = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.


Which is broken down to:

Original
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
Translation
At the beginning was the word, and the word was to God, and God was the word.

The claim you made earlier was that the word "with" is not present in the Greek, and is in italics in the KJV because it was added to the text by translators.

This is not true. The Greek word πρὸς pros (transliteration) is in the Greek text, and the translators translated it as "with".

When words are in italics in English, it means that a non-existing word was added for clarity's sake, which can be reasonably inferred upon the text. This is not the case with πρὸς pros in this Scripture.

John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

No italics here.

I assume that's what you meant when you said "add on" here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ew-of-gods-nature.189684/page-16#post-4291277

If it was an "add on" and wasn't in the text, the word would be italicized.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Thank You!

First off, I am using:
Online Greek Bible
greekbible.com
Ancient Greek (biblical / classical) material including: Online texts (accented Greek New Testament), Shopping for printed materials, and Resources for learning and studying Ancient Greek.

It guarantees authentic Greek from when these manuscripts were written.
Then it breaks each verse down from the Greek to any language (English)

And then I am verifying the translation to other greek translators.

So, it breaks down like this:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Ἐν = 1) in, by, with etc.

ἀρχῇ = 1) beginning, origin 2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader 3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause 4) the extremity of a thing 4a) of the corners of a sail 5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy 5a) of angels and demons

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

πρὸς = 1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to

τὸν = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.


Which is broken down to:

Original
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
Translation
At the beginning was the word, and the word was to God, and God was the word.

The claim you made earlier was that the word "with" is not present in the Greek, and is in italics in the KJV because it was added to the text by translators.

This is not true. The Greek word πρὸς pros (transliteration) is in the Greek text, and the translators translated it as "with".

When words are in italics in English, it means that a non-existing word was added for clarity's sake, which can be reasonably inferred upon the text. This is not the case with πρὸς pros in this Scripture.

John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

No italics here.

Prove to me that those presented references by Oneness are distorted facts?
Be professional enough.

Summarize their claims for me and i will present them to my church history friend for his thoughts. I am not doing your work for you.

I will tell you though that as a former cultist, I was presented with a false historical narrative that I bought into. I found out many years later that my "teachers" were delusional fools who believed the rants of an old vain man with delusions of grandeur and a bad education (he never graduated high school yet felt qualified to criticize Greek scholars). I suspect that most cults are populated by such vain people.

Be careful lest you find yourself in a similar situation. I suspect you already are, though, and will never see it unless God opens your eyes. Instead you will think that you are the one who is right, and the vast majority of Christians are wrong and deceived. This is the Kool aid of all cults.

 

[biker]

The claim you made earlier was that the word "with" is not present in the Greek, and is in italics in the KJV because it was added to the text by translators.

This is not true. The Greek word πρὸς pros (transliteration) is in the Greek text, and the translators translated it as "with".

When words are in italics in English, it means that a non-existing word was added for clarity's sake, which can be reasonably inferred upon the text. This is not the case with πρὸς pros in this Scripture.

John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

No italics here.

I assume that's what you meant when you said "add on" here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ew-of-gods-nature.189684/page-16#post-4291277

If it was an "add on" and wasn't in the text, the word would be italicized.

No, I meant πρὸς = 1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to (has several possible meanings). And they chose the word "WITH" when it could also be to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The claim you made earlier was that the word "with" is not present in the Greek, and is in italics in the KJV because it was added to the text by translators.

This is not true. The Greek word πρὸς pros (transliteration) is in the Greek text, and the translators translated it as "with".

When words are in italics in English, it means that a non-existing word was added for clarity's sake, which can be reasonably inferred upon the text. This is not the case with πρὸς pros in this Scripture.

John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

No italics here.

I assume that's what you meant when you said "add on" here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ew-of-gods-nature.189684/page-16#post-4291277

If it was an "add on" and wasn't in the text, the word would be italicized.

Instead maybe you mean something else by "add on". it's hard to say. If you mean you don't agree with the sound doctrinal position of the translators, and you think "pros" should have been translated as something else, my response would be to ask you why you think your translation is superior, and what your academic credentials in Greek are, that enable you to make such a determination.

I suspect you don't have any formal Greek training.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

No, I meant πρὸς = 1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to (has several possible meanings). And they chose the word "WITH" when it could also be to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to

Ok..so in other words, you disagree with their translation.

What credentials do you have that you can appeal to, that qualifies you to make such a determination?

Additionally, the semantic domain that you have defined above does not reflect the extensive semantic domain that other dictionaries employ. With is a perfectly adequate translation.

And, it would help if you would try to look at the context, by the way. After the resurrection, Jesus was "at the Father's side". This indicates an interpersonal and intimate relationship. There is a distinction between the one who is at the Father's side and the one who is the Father. There is also distinction between the one, and the one who has made him known.

John 1:18 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

 

[biker]

Look at this:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

^
You might think each character has a single word meaning.

But look at this:
Ἐν = 1) in, by, with etc.

ἀρχῇ = 1) beginning, origin 2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader 3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause 4) the extremity of a thing 4a) of the corners of a sail 5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy 5a) of angels and demons

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

πρὸς = 1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to

τὸν = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.


Some Characters have a few options, some have 20+ options.

This could have been translated literally 50 different ways.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

No, I meant πρὸς = 1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to (has several possible meanings). And they chose the word "WITH" when it could also be to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to

g4314. πρός pros; a strengthened form of 4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. toward (with the genitive case, the side of, i.e. pertaining to; with the dative case, by the side of, i.e. near to; usually with the accusative case, the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated): — about, according to , against, among, at, because of, before, between, (where-)by, for, x at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), x together, to (you) -ward, unto, with(-in). In the comparative case, it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.
AV (726) - unto 340, to 203, with 43, for 25, against 24, among 20, at 11, not tr 6, misc 53, vr to 1;
to the advantage ofat, near, byto, towards, with, with regard to

Therefore, "with" or "together" are both acceptable words within the semantic domain of πρός

Which is exactly the inference in the translations.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, why don't you guys answer these responses to the claims that Oneness Pentecostals make concerning the persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?


VI. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Each Someone Distinct from the Other Two (i.e., they are three “persons”)


A. Matt. 28:19

1. “the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”: use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 26

2. The views that “Father” and “Son” are distinct persons but not the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a “spirit” is a person unless context shows otherwise).

3. Does singular “name” prove that the three are one person? No; cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. 48:16. Thus, the word “name” can apply distinctly to each of the three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) and does not imply that they have only one name.

4. “Name” need not be personal name, may be title: Is. 9:6; Matt. 1:23.

B. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19

1. Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, “I baptize you in the name of....”

2. Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula “in the name of Jesus” was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:

a. Jews: Acts 2:5, 38; 22:16

b. Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 12, 16

c. God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 22, 48

d. Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5

e. The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13

3. Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to “all the nations,” including people who did not know of the biblical God

4. Cross-referencing Acts 2:38 and other Acts references to baptism “in Jesus’ name” with Matthew 28:19 to prove that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is hermeneutically flawed, since none of these passages is seeking to make such a point and none of them is claiming that baptism must be performed using a particular formula.

C. God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons

1. The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Philem. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3

2. Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15

3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21

4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31; 15:9; 17:23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17

5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.

6. The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15

7. Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1

D. Jesus is not God the Father

1. Is. 9:6: “Father of eternity” means eternal; compare other names formed with word “father”: Abialbon, “father of strength” = strong (2 Sam. 23:31);Abiasaph, “father of gathering” = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman’s name (!), “father of exultation” = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16).

2. John 10:30

a. Jesus did not say, “I am the Father,” nor did he say, “the Son and the Father are one person.”

b. The first person plural esmen (“we are”) implies two persons.

c. The neuter word for “one” (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity.

d. John 10:30 in context is a strong affirmation of Christ’s deity, but does not mean that he is the Father.

3. John 5:43: Jesus’ coming in his Father’s name means not that he was the Father because he had the Father’s name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; he comes in his Father’s name (on his Father’s authority).

4. John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one he calls “My Father.”

5. John 14:6-11

a. Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person.

b. Jesus said, “I am in the Father,” not “I am the Father.”

c. The statement, “the Father is in me,” does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23.

6. John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being “orphans,” without being their father.

7. Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since “Godhead” (theotês) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. “The Godhead” here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father. See II.B.3.

8. The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21); 6:39-40, 44, 54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father

E. The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation

1. Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; “prophecy” in 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as “burden.”

2. The Son created all things, requiring of course that he existed when he did so: See above, IV.E.1.

3. Jesus was “with” (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean “pertaining to,” although it does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).

4. Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was born before Jesus): John 1:15, cf. 1:14-18, 29-34.

5. Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father, and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 31; 6:33; 38, 41, 46, 51, 56-58, 62; 8:23, 42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12

6. Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal preexistence before Abraham: John 8:58

7. The Son explicitly said to exist “before all things”: Col. 1:17, cf. 1:12-20

8. These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God’s foreknowledge

a. We are all “in God’s mind” before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.

b. To say that all things were created through Christ means that He must have existed at creation.

c. No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.

9. Texts which speak of the Son being begotten “today” do not mean he became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to his exaltation at his resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Ps. 2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4).

F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Holy Spirit is “another Comforter”: John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1.

2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.

3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).

4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22.

6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?

a. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called “Lord” in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the Revised English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Is. 6:8-10.

b. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is “a life-giving Spirit,” not in the sense that he is the Holy Spirit whom he sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that he is the glorified God-man; and as God he is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated “the Holy Spirit.”

c. Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).

d. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to his appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.

e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22); Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit

1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.

2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.

3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19.

4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?

a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the “conception” is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!

b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.

 

[biker]

"UnitedWithChrist, post: 4291900, member: 287917"What credentials do you have that you can appeal to, that qualifies you to make such a determination?

My Credentials can legally assign you to a mental health ward or deem you perfectly sane!

"UnitedWithChrist, post: 4291909, member: 287917"]By the way, why don't you guys answer these responses to the claims that Oneness Pentecostals make concerning the persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?


VI. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Are Each Someone Distinct from the Other Two (i.e., they are three “persons”)


A. Matt. 28:19



B. Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19



C. God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons



D. Jesus is not God the Father



E. The Son existed before his Incarnation, even before creation



F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit



G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit

None of these indicate they are Persons. There is not a single term that makes the distinct reference to any of them being separate. And they could indicate like the Church Fathers concluded 1 God and within that 1 God there are distinct ways God deals with everything. But nowhere is there an indication of multiple persons.

 

[biker]

None of these indicate they are Persons. There is not a single term that makes the distinct reference to any of them being separate. And they could indicate like the Church Fathers concluded 1 God and within that 1 God there are distinct ways God deals with everything. But nowhere is there an indication of multiple persons.

How the English is written and read it does indeed appear these are unique and separate individuals.
But how the Hebrew, the Aramaic, and the Greek is formatted, there is only a distinction when you translate them into English.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

My Credentials can legally assign you to a mental health ward or deem you perfectly sane!





None of these indicate they are Persons. There is not a single term that makes the distinct reference to any of them being separate. And they could indicate like the Church Fathers concluded 1 God and within that 1 God there are distinct ways God deals with everything. But nowhere is there an indication of multiple persons.

I'll let the readers judge.

By the way you are interjecting a word in your reply that is not what knowledgeable Christians use, and that is "separate".

I have told you guys fifty times that the three Persons of the Triune God are distinct, not separate. They share the same essence.

Yet you continue to try to infer meanings upon Trinitarianism that are strawmen in order to perpetuate your deception upon others.

Listen..."separate" is a spatial term and God is not a spatial being.

Additionally, God is co-essential meaning that the three Persons share the same essence. This is not the same as one person standing next to another person standing next to another person. This view is a strawmen of the Trinity that deceivers like you superimpose upon our belief system.

And, recognize that these guys are actively trying to deceive and mislead people. Their distortions are subtle but their intentionality is apparent to me.

Specifically, though, I will ask Christians to read the above webpage for Scriptural proof that indicates the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. These guys cannot refute the Scriptural proofs.

 

[biker]

My Credentials can legally assign you to a mental health ward or deem you perfectly sane!

This means in the Sciences of Neurology and the behaviors related.
But, this is why I used the example of the Greek, to which each Character can present several different meaning possibilities. Because the mind translating these into Languages, more often translate on personal viewpoint.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

How the English is written and read it does indeed appear these are unique and separate individuals.
But how the Hebrew, the Aramaic, and the Greek is formatted, there is only a distinction when you translate them into English.

Quit using the word "separate" rather than "distinct".

This is strawman language.

Additionally, your claim is not true concerning original languages. The vast majority of original language scholars disagree and that is why there is no widespread argument with Trinitarianism other than by followers of the cults with inadequate language training.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This means in the Sciences of Neurology and the behaviors related.
But, this is why I used the example of the Greek, to which each Character can present several different meaning possibilities. Because the mind translating these into Languages, more often translate on personal viewpoint.

That's a relatively small influence upon the text, and the meanings that cults attempt to import are major deviations.

 

[biker]

Specifically, though, I will ask Christians to read the above webpage for Scriptural proof that indicates the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. These guys cannot refute the Scriptural proofs.

Of course they cannot refute due to how the English Language is structured.

But in the Hebrew text, Aramaic text, Greek text, there is no He/Him/His/etc.

It's generally "IT."

Why the English assigned terms to "IT' reveals personal viewpoint.

 

[biker]

Of course they cannot refute due to how the English Language is structured.

But in the Hebrew text, Aramaic text, Greek text, there is no He/Him/His/etc.

It's generally "IT."

Why the English assigned terms to "IT' reveals personal viewpoint.

KJV (English):
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


Greek:
Οταν ἔλθῃ ὁ παράκλητος ὃν ἐγὼ πέμψω ὑμῖν παρὰ τοῦ πατρός, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας ὃ παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκπορεύεται, ἐκεῖνος μαρτυρήσει περὶ ἐμοῦ:
Now, whenever the consoler which I shall be sending you from the Father may be coming, the spirit of truth which is going out from the Father, that will be testifying concerning Me.


English version takes the Greek "THAT" and makes it into "HE."

That's not what the Greek states!
It states "THAT!"

So when the English makes "THAT" into "HE" and we read "HE" we think Person.

When you read "THAT" you don't think person!

 

[biker]

Quit using the word "separate" rather than "distinct".

Mark 12:32

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ γραμματεύς, Καλῶς, διδάσκαλε, ἐπ' ἀληθείας εἶπες ὅτι εἷς ἐστιν καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν ἄλλος πλὴν αὐτοῦ:
32 And the scribe said to Him, "In truth, Teacher, Thou sayest ideally that He is One, and there is no other more than He."

Here is the Greek claiming God is ONE and there is no MORE than HE!

How does this fit the Trinity?

 

[biker]

Mark 12:32

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ γραμματεύς, Καλῶς, διδάσκαλε, ἐπ' ἀληθείας εἶπες ὅτι εἷς ἐστιν καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν ἄλλος πλὴν αὐτοῦ:
32 And the scribe said to Him, "In truth, Teacher, Thou sayest ideally that He is One, and there is no other more than He."

Here is the Greek claiming God is ONE and there is no MORE than HE!

How does this fit the Trinity?

When the Greek specifies HE for the ONE PERSON GOD in Mark 12, but calls the Holy Spirit "IT/THAT" in John 15, you know the Holy Spirit IS NOT A PERSON!



But the English makes you think the Holy Spirit is a Person,