The 2nd Commandment and Images of Jesus

[NotmebutHim]

Exodus 20:4-6 NKJV:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

Clearly, the 2nd commandment forbids making carved images of anything for the purpose of worship.

However, we do have various types of images of Jesus as we understand and assume that He appeared when He was a Man on earth.

And of course, those who lived during Jesus' time saw what He looked like in human form.

There are some, though, who say that having any image of Jesus is tantamount to idolatry and therefore also a violation of the 2nd commandment.

Personally, I don't feel that it's automatically idolatry (although one can make an image of Jesus into an idol). I say that because some people actually did see what Jesus looked like. Also because I believe that the prohibition against carved images was because God knew that man would try to make an image to represent Him or some other god. And one of the times that did happen was the golden calf incident.

My question is: why do some say that it's idolatry to have images of Jesus today?

Thanks!

 

[JaumeJ]

I feel no need to have any kind of venerated image, not even a cross. My cross is carried daily. It was given me as a gift and duty. God sees it.

 

[Bede]

If images are intrinsically wrong why did God instruct the making of them?
Ex 25:18-20
1Chr 28:18-19
Ez 41:17-18
Num 21:8-9

 

[JaumeJ]

An image is only "wrong" if the owner worships it.

 

[Corban]

Exodus 20:4-6 NKJV:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

Clearly, the 2nd commandment forbids making carved images of anything for the purpose of worship.

However, we do have various types of images of Jesus as we understand and assume that He appeared when He was a Man on earth.

And of course, those who lived during Jesus' time saw what He looked like in human form.

There are some, though, who say that having any image of Jesus is tantamount to idolatry and therefore also a violation of the 2nd commandment.

Personally, I don't feel that it's automatically idolatry (although one can make an image of Jesus into an idol). I say that because some people actually did see what Jesus looked like. Also because I believe that the prohibition against carved images was because God knew that man would try to make an image to represent Him or some other god. And one of the times that did happen was the golden calf incident.

My question is: why do some say that it's idolatry to have images of Jesus today?

Thanks!

The Law is absolute. It gives direct instructions. But the Law is ONLY given to Israel. So how shall the Christian react? The Christian, while not under Law, can learn the mind of God on certain matters by the Law. The mind of God is that He does not want images. Added to this, notwithstanding that many saw our Lord Jesus, He did not leave any image of Himself. Nor did He leave a birthday/date. And He clearly said that our relationship with Him should be via the human spirit to a Spirit (Jn.4:23-24). There is no pictorial record of Him, so every picture of Him by men is the thoughts of men - fallen men. Finally, what does an image of Christ achieve? Nothing.

I guess that by sheer weight of evidence an image of what men think Christ looks like is vain. But if one finds the freedom to create an image of what they think Christ looked like, remember the ONE SINGLE CLUE we have. He was not handsome. Isaiah 53:2 says; "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."

 

[Bede]

The Law is absolute. It gives direct instructions. But the Law is ONLY given to Israel.

I agree that the law was only given to Israel. But there is a further point
Looking at only Ex 20:4-6 detaches our understanding from the whole commandment.
Ex 20:3 is the first part: “You shall have no other gods before me." That is the principal instruction. Verses 4-6 are how to avoid having other gods, given to people who had been surrounded by a culture full of images as Gods. As @Jaumel said "An image is only "wrong" if the owner worships it".
And before you claim that Ex 20:3 and 4-6 are two commandments I point out that the Jews treat them as one, and they ought to know.

 

[garee]

If images are intrinsically wrong why did God instruct the making of them?
Ex 25:18-20
1Chr 28:18-19
Ez 41:17-18
Num 21:8-9

Him making a image to teach us how to walk by faith as part of prophecy is not the same as us.

Images made in the likeness of men becomes gods to those like Rachel who kidnapped her fathers teraphim a household worship center as a way of communing with the legion (necromancy)

.Like Catholiscim and what they call patron saints. There legion 3,500 and rising along with a idol image are available on line $$$$ for each one .

Therefore eliminating the work of our unseen father, usurping His authority and giving it to the patron saint creator the Pope. Who they call Holy father. Holy See. Again a legion rises each time and a face is needed to make sure a person is conjuring up the one they are hoping to come with as a workers of familiar spirits. Each one has a work attributed to them. Some double or triple up. But only one and the same lying voice each time.

When Saul was cut off from all means of communing with God. He followed what comes natural and sought a witch or wizard . (false mediator like the Pope. )

1 Samuel 28: 9-14 And the woman (wizard) said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods (plural legion) ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

And God sent a strong delusion so that Saul could continue to bow down to Satan, the legion .Many faces.

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

King Josiah finding the book of the law the scriptures performed the work of putting away the legion of workers with familiar spirits, or today called patron saints. We pray after one manner our unseen Father in heaven . Not a legion.

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

 

[garee]

I agree that the law was only given to Israel. But there is a further point
Looking at only Ex 20:4-6 detaches our understanding from the whole commandment.
Ex 20:3 is the first part: “You shall have no other gods before me." That is the principal instruction. Verses 4-6 are how to avoid having other gods, given to people who had been surrounded by a culture full of images as Gods. As @Jaumel said "An image is only "wrong" if the owner worships it".
And before you claim that Ex 20:3 and 4-6 are two commandments I point out that the Jews treat them as one, and they ought to know.

Why would a Jew know? The law is given to mankind. Not to flesh tones.

 

[Corban]

I agree that the law was only given to Israel. But there is a further point
Looking at only Ex 20:4-6 detaches our understanding from the whole commandment.
Ex 20:3 is the first part: “You shall have no other gods before me." That is the principal instruction. Verses 4-6 are how to avoid having other gods, given to people who had been surrounded by a culture full of images as Gods. As @Jaumel said "An image is only "wrong" if the owner worships it".
And before you claim that Ex 20:3 and 4-6 are two commandments I point out that the Jews treat them as one, and they ought to know.

I hear you. No disagreement from my side.

 

[Corban]

Why would a Jew know? The law is given to mankind. Not to flesh tones.

Better check up. The Law is only given to Israel (Ex.34:27). But you have a point. Do the Jews know better? Their history says something else.

 

[Bede]

Him making a image to teach us how to walk by faith as part of prophecy is not the same as us.

Images made in the likeness of men becomes gods to those like Rachel who kidnapped her fathers teraphim a household worship center as a way of communing with the legion (necromancy)

.Like Catholiscim and what they call patron saints. There legion 3,500 and rising along with a idol image are available on line $$$$ for each one .

Therefore eliminating the work of our unseen father, usurping His authority and giving it to the patron saint creator the Pope. Who they call Holy father. Holy See. Again a legion rises each time and a face is needed to make sure a person is conjuring up the one they are hoping to come with as a workers of familiar spirits. Each one has a work attributed to them. Some double or triple up. But only one and the same lying voice each time.

When Saul was cut off from all means of communing with God. He followed what comes natural and sought a witch or wizard . (false mediator like the Pope. )

1 Samuel 28: 9-14 And the woman (wizard) said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods (plural legion) ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

And God sent a strong delusion so that Saul could continue to bow down to Satan, the legion .Many faces.

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

King Josiah finding the book of the law the scriptures performed the work of putting away the legion of workers with familiar spirits, or today called patron saints. We pray after one manner our unseen Father in heaven . Not a legion.

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

A rag bag of errors. Not worth answering.

 

[Bede]

Better check up. The Law is only given to Israel (Ex.34:27). But you have a point. Do the Jews know better? Their history says something else.

Do you think that we, not of that culture, know better than those it was given to some 3,500 years ago?

 

[Funkus]

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him

That's only true to begin with, later the true beauty of the Lord is manifest and it is great and desirable. We do not worship an ugly God, but a perfect one, and if we don't see that perfection the problem is with us not God who is the author of beauty. What made Jesus undesirable to us is what makes him beautiful to God. We should desire him not because he is beautiful to us but because he is beautiful to God

 

[Adstar]

Exodus 20:4-6 NKJV:

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

Clearly, the 2nd commandment forbids making carved images of anything for the purpose of worship.

However, we do have various types of images of Jesus as we understand and assume that He appeared when He was a Man on earth.

And of course, those who lived during Jesus' time saw what He looked like in human form.

There are some, though, who say that having any image of Jesus is tantamount to idolatry and therefore also a violation of the 2nd commandment.

Personally, I don't feel that it's automatically idolatry (although one can make an image of Jesus into an idol). I say that because some people actually did see what Jesus looked like. Also because I believe that the prohibition against carved images was because God knew that man would try to make an image to represent Him or some other god. And one of the times that did happen was the golden calf incident.

My question is: why do some say that it's idolatry to have images of Jesus today?

Thanks!

But still God told us not to make any craven images.. So no matter how much we use our intellect and put forward excuses and justifications,, if we have these graven images,, then we are in rebellion against the Word of God..

 

[Corban]

Do you think that we, not of that culture, know better than those it was given to some 3,500 years ago?

It was not I who said that the blind were leading the blind, but One far greater than I. In this light (or darkness) Isarel are no measuring stick when it comes to the Law. I would not recommend them as authoritative. They not only broke the Law completely, not only showed disdain for it, but they made it of none effect by their traditions. They are singularly disqualified. It was the very Law we discuss that they broke first - and made the golden calf, which they called; "their gods that brought them out of Egypt". Not that we would have done any better.

But, I agreed with your understanding that one could join the two sets of verses you quoted into one law.

 

[Corban]

That's only true to begin with, later the true beauty of the Lord is manifest and it is great and desirable. We do not worship an ugly God, but a perfect one, and if we don't see that perfection the problem is with us not God who is the author of beauty. What made Jesus undesirable to us is what makes him beautiful to God. We should desire him not because he is beautiful to us but because he is beautiful to God

I think we are talking at cross purposes. That verse in Isaiah refers to the MAN Jesus - not God (Who is a Spirit - Jn.4:23-24). The thread is about making an image of a MAN. But, as to the rest, I agree with you. He is altogether lovely.

 

[Bede]

But still God told us not to make any craven images.. So no matter how much we use our intellect and put forward excuses and justifications,, if we have these graven images,, then we are in rebellion against the Word of God..

He told the Jews not to make any graven images, not us.

 

[Adstar]

He told the Jews not to make any graven images, not us.

He told the Jews not to steal or murder too.. So by your faulty traditions of men mindset ( yeah i know you're an agent of the roman catholic false religion ) You should be able to murder and steal..

 

[Bede]

He told the Jews not to steal or murder too.. So by your faulty traditions of men mindset ( yeah i know you're an agent of the roman catholic false religion ) You should be able to murder and steal..

That is an ignorant and bigoted post. I can see there is no point in explaining to you.

 

[Adstar]

That is an ignorant and bigoted post. I can see there is no point in explaining to you.

I am a Christian and when i am in a Christian forum i want to fellowship with other Christians.. The fact that you a roman catholic are allowed to openly and freely promote your false religion in here causes me great disappointment and irritation..

I have no troubles in sharing the truth of my LORD Jesus Christ with seeking muslims or hindus or catholics who may come into this forum as seekers..

But your no seeker Bede.. You're here to preach and push the roman catholic religion which is the enemy of the Gospel of Christ.. This forum may as well allow a muslim immam to preach jihad in here or a hindu guru to promote the worship of vishnu, but i am sure the owner of this forum would not tolerate that for long..

But for some unknown reason a person from a religion that has been the constant enemy of Christ for centuries longer then islam. Who burned my Brothers and Sisters in Christ as the stake in times past is allowed to promote spiritual filth in this place and it disgusts me to the core..