Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh
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exactly.
this is the fruit of the "holiness" movement - "entire sanctification". they taught that man actually becomes sinless (perfectionism) in this life. IMPARTED RIGHTEOUSNESS unto perfection (vs: the imputed righteousness of Christ leading to a new and ongoing desire to turn from sin and strive for holiness daily - this struggle continues until we leave this body of death).
though most will dance around the core doctrine, they teach that after the new birth man is now able to be like adam and eve were before the fall.
"The point of entire sanctification is to restore people to the kind of holiness that Adam and Eve enjoyed before the Fall."
it's especailly hard to counter because what Christian isn't striving against the sin nature?
but in the end, IT'S THE LAW....all LAW.
Just to clear up here any UNINTENTIONAL misunderstanding. There are I believe two types of sin.
The deep rooted sin a person takes into their Cheristian life from their former life which they are DESPERATE to be rid of, and the wilfull, deliberate sin committed once a person has been set free of such sin
Example
A person is an alcoholic. They become saved but do not immediately stop drinking alcohol, it has too much of a hold on their life
But they stand on faith, they are saved and look to Christ never shifting from believing they are saved because he died for them. They are living under faith, not law.
After a time Christ sets them free from their alcoholism by the power of the Holy Spirit who sanctifies them.
A year later the person who is now completely free from their need for alcohol takes their eyes off Christ and looks in their heart away. They decide to have a dring of alcohol, they get drunk. This is because in their heart they wilfully looked away from trusting Christ and instead looked to the flesh and desired to satisfy it
I maintain the former is to be viewed very differently from the later, so did Spurgeon and I would say so would anyone who understand how grace works
And I have made clear no-one reaches a sinless state while on earth, but does grow and have victory in their lives
The deep rooted sin a person takes into their Cheristian life from their former life which they are DESPERATE to be rid of, and the wilfull, deliberate sin committed once a person has been set free of such sin
Example
A person is an alcoholic. They become saved but do not immediately stop drinking alcohol, it has too much of a hold on their life
But they stand on faith, they are saved and look to Christ never shifting from believing they are saved because he died for them. They are living under faith, not law.
After a time Christ sets them free from their alcoholism by the power of the Holy Spirit who sanctifies them.
A year later the person who is now completely free from their need for alcohol takes their eyes off Christ and looks in their heart away. They decide to have a dring of alcohol, they get drunk. This is because in their heart they wilfully looked away from trusting Christ and instead looked to the flesh and desired to satisfy it
I maintain the former is to be viewed very differently from the later, so did Spurgeon and I would say so would anyone who understand how grace works
And I have made clear no-one reaches a sinless state while on earth, but does grow and have victory in their lives
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FIRSTBORN
4416a. prótotokos
Paul is NOT saying Jesus was the first created being!
he is saying Jesus is ABOVE ALL CREATURES! why?
like the 'first born son of families of men' He is the HEIR of all! it's a figure of speech!
it mean pre-eminance, supreme position, not that He was created!
everything belongs to Him!
He is the ARCHITECT of all creation! LOGOS!
first, chief
Original Word: πρῶτος, η, ονPart of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prótos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro'-tos)
Short Definition: first, before
Definition: first, before, principal, most important.
4413 prṓtos (an adjective, derived from 4253 /pró, "before, forward") – first (foremost). 4413 /prṓtos ("first, foremost") is the superlative form of 4253 /pró ("before") meaning "what comes first" (is "number one").
as for Jesus being the IMAGE of the invisible God (THEOS)...how can you reconcile THAT with the idea Jesus is created? is Jesus an entity The Pater decided to make that looks and acts just like Him?
1504 eikṓn (from 1503 /eíkō, "be like") – properly, "mirror-like representation," referring to what is very close in resemblance (like a "high-definition" projection, as defined by the context). Image (1504 /eikṓn) then exactly reflects its source (what it directly corresponds to). For example, Christ is the very image (1504 /eikṓn, supreme expression) of the Godhead (see 2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15).
"1504 (eikṓn) assumes a prototype, of which it not merely resembles, but from which it is drawn" (R. Trench). 1504 (eikṓn) then is more than a "shadow"; rather it is a replication (F. F. Bruce, Hebrews, 226; see also Lightfoot at Col 3:10 and 2:21).
Do you really want my answer Zone?
I will just say this
I do not rely on pouring over the Greek text and examinig studiously each word of it. I don't have any desire to do that.
I look at it like this the first disciples did klnown as 'the way'
They Live a life of simple faith and a total reliance on the Holy Spirit.
I do not believe the Spirit relies on the Greek text to show people the truth he would have them see
If you goad me to reply in my weakness I may, but please remember I have given you the oppurtunity to stop here
As for your above comments. Better for me not to reply. You told me you were not going to ask me anymore questions on this subject
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Scripturally?
that sounds like head knowledge.
did she?
according to your sinful strawman theory, she couldn't have been saved because she sinned right up to her death:
The practice was not was widespread in Pentecostal circles after her death until the advent of another woman minister named Aimee Semple McPherson (1890-1944). She was a traveling evangelist and she too had people fall out under the power in her ministry (long footnote citing the book about her life). She was very controversial and she founded the Foursquare Gospel denomination, she died of a barbiturate overdose in 1944. To this day charismatic believers ignore the fact that she was divorcee, most likely faked her own kidnapping in order to spend time in an adulterous liaison (1926), and then died of a drug overdose. Yet the power of God is supposed to have flowed mightily through during all of her life!
The next major figure whose ministry was earmarked by multitudes being slain in the spirit was Kathryn Khulman (1907-1976). Kathryn committed adultery with a married man, who left his wife and children to marry Kathryn. A few years later Kathryn divorced him and never remarried. I bring these distasteful facets up because it shows some of the character of these mighty Pentecostal/Charismatic giants of the faith. I am not saying these people were not saved, nor that they did not sincerely repent of their sins. However, character does matter in ministry.
[SIZE=-1]Apart from the well-documented healings, the most sensational phenomena associated with Khulman was "going under the power" (sometimes referred to as "slain in the Spirit") as people fell when she prayed for them. This sometimes happened to dozens at a time and occasionally [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]hundreds.http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/slaininthespirit.html[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]hundreds.http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/slaininthespirit.html[/SIZE]
how do you know they were saved?
were you there?
and as for their healings...maybe some were. have you watched the videos or been to a Todd Bentley revival? is he being "mightly used of God"? it's either yes or no.
Bentley committed adultery WHILE ON HIS CRUSADE, divorced his wife. and his PETER C. WAGNER NEW APOSTOLIC REFORMATION handlers said he was still good-to-go. was he?
you can read a bunch of testimonials in a book by charismatics (people "experiencing signs and wonders") and take their word for things, but not the testimonies of non-charismatics (because they have dry "head knowedge")?
maybe those people sinned after they went to a KK crusade....how many sins before they actually weren't saved at all?
is being 'slain the spirit' evidence the holy Spirit is working? SINCE WHEN?
i will keep producing information on that movement. maybe some can avoid it.
exactly what ULTIMATE PRICE did KK make LBG?
Connections to Spiritualism/Spiritism have been documented in the faith healers of this same time period of the early 1900s, such as William Branham and Kathryn Kuhlman. Other more recent individuals have been linked to necromancy such as Benny Hinn. The same techniques and manifestations are also now present in the counterfeit revival, including Indian-style chanting, visions where dead “Christians” appear and give advice, and ugly degrading "manifestations" of the “spirit”. Test the spirits and judge for yourself where this “new revelation” and “anointing” is coming from.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/spiritism.htm
she wasn't...by any stretch of the imgaination.
is that one of the things that legitimized her?
stressing experience over "head knowledge"?
you want it both ways.
why do you refer to Spurgeon?
he believed JESUS IS ETERNAL THEOS (uncreated).
I said I am happy to believe as he did ON THIS
Do you always agree with EVERYTHING others do?
when did you last take your eyes off Christ and willfully sin LBG? 10 years ago?
your sinning strawman (that YOU created) is terrible thing to stand on.
do you know what the FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT REALLY MEANS?
if you REALLY had an idea of just how HOLY and PERFECT God is you wouldn't be pretending to be righteous. but, you'll say you're not: that's what the SCARECROW is for.
Well I will just comment on one particular thing you wrote.
Yes, an Evangelist who was married came to preach at her services in Denver. He was married with two children
Jamie Bucking ham a respected Christian author who upon her insistence wrote her biography and believed her incidentally to be annointed of God spoke of this in the book
She married the man(it does not say she slept wioth him before marriage as you imply) It was grievous sin against God, absolutely, yes.
For thje next six years not much is known of KK but one day she was walking down a dead end street. She rtealised her life was at a dead end. She had tpo cholose between the man she loved and the God she loved, she chose God. She cried her heart out for two days
She said if anyone thought it was easy to come to the cross thewy had never been there.
She left her husband and gave the rest of her life to God, never to remarry.
I guess you must be sinless Zone as you are happy to point the finger at others.
God forgave her, he does forgive people you know of sion, even the worst of sin when they cry out to him in repentance.
KK by her own admittance was nowhere near perfect but she gave in the end all she had to gicve tpo God
But you carry on finding fault with her, you seem to revel in it.
All I can say is
If the miracles in her services were by the power and annointing of the Holy Spirit and you carry on in the vein you are I would read the section where the Pharisees accused Christ of casting out demons because he was posessed by the prince of demons and what his reply was
But heck, you carry on maligning nher Zone, I guess you believe it is your Christian duty to do so
that post was to wakeup.
i'm not goading you into anything.
reply or don't reply.
i would have had no argument with your ideas whatsoever until i saw you deny the Deity of Christ.
unacceptable.
OK Zone
So in my weakness I will reply
Are you led by the Holy Spirit?
Well, Christ continually and plainly stated what a person had to believe concerning himself to have eternal life
We are not just talking about one verse of scripture here, but plain continuous statements on the subject, and it concerns what is neccessary to believe to have eternal life
Christ did not go into his substance, nature, whether or n ot the Father preexisted him, he simply said
Believe I am the son of God
Do you accept that? No you do not
So I will say again with full assurity you are not being led of the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit would not contradict the plain words of Christ as any Christian should know
Yes, there are some disagreements between people, but this concerns the plain and continuous statements made concering the required belief for eternal life, and not only by Christ I may add.
So you are speaking for yourself, you are not being led of the Holy Spirit, and what does that produce?
He who speaks on his own does so to gain honour for himself
John 7:18
That sems pretty clear to me.
Your God is your head theology Zone and like two other people who have non Biblical beliefs for salvation and are driven not by the Holy Spirit therefore you have to lash out and malign the person, for you cannot SCRIPTURALLY defend your beliefs(unless Christ was wrong)
And all of this is caused by P R I D E
And pride produces anger, and you are showing a lot of that today
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Whatever is unacceptablre to you Zone does not concern me, for the rerasons given in my previous [post. But I do see more and more what is driving you. Therefore your [pronouncements on my beliefs mean nothing to me
By the way I believe we see the divinity of the Father in the son as I have many times told you, but untruths do stem from a heart not driven by correct motives as I have many times seen
that's a lovely story.
you know her biography very well.
so you believe everything she did was righteous and good, and acceptable enough to the Lord that He anointed her to go and preach.
but....what about this poor fellow?:
you'll never finding me claiming to be sinless LBG.
the subject keeps coming up because of the fellow in the picture.
and you use him to keep Red distracted, because you don't like Red's "head knowledge".
ya.
the charismatic "blasphemy of The Holy Spirit" schtick. it's the spiritists that are in danger of it LBG.
if people keep holding her up as an example of one being "mightily used of God", i have no choice.
that's a lovely story.
you know her biography very well.
so you believe everything she did was righteous and good, and acceptable enough to the Lord that He anointed her to go and preach.
but....what about this poor fellow?:
you'll never finding me claiming to be sinless LBG.
the subject keeps coming up because of the fellow in the picture.
and you use him to keep Red distracted, because you don't like Red's "head knowledge".
ya.
the charismatic "blasphemy of The Holy Spirit" schtick. it's the spiritists that are in danger of it LBG.
if people keep holding her up as an example of one being "mightily used of God", i have no choice.
Oh you carry on Zone, it is not me or KK you are hurting you know
LBG.
i'm not playing this sleight-of-hand game.
i know the JW and Mormon techniques for claiming Jesus is a created demi-god or angel or some other thing.
Believing Jesus as the Son of God does not mean beleiving He is a created being.
THE THIRD WAVERS LOVE IT THOUGH....because it means...ye too shall be as gods....
Here is a list of quotes from leaders in the Third Wave and "counterfeit" revival movements. This page will provide you the documented evidence you need to determine whether or not the people listed on this page are teaching false doctrine and/or making false prophesies.
This page includes quotes from: A.A. Allen, John Arnott, John Avanzini, William Branham, Paul Cain, Charles Capps, Morris Cerullo, Paul Yonggi Cho, Randy Clark, Jack Coe, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, Jack Deere, Kenneth Hagin, Marilyn Hickey, Steve Hill, Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard-Browne, Rick Joyner, Essek Kenyon, John Kilpatrick, Kathryn Kuhlman, Aimee Semple McPherson, Earl Paulk, Peter Popoff, Fred Price, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, John Scotland, Robert Tilton, and John Wimber. Click on their name to go to their quotes. They are arranged in alphabetical order.
Quotes From Third Wave Leaders
Well I know nothing about any of them apart from KK and don't spend my time reading up on any of them either.
But this is actually one thing Red and I do agree on. He saaid in a comment a while ago that KK was mightilyy used of God, so there you go
your beliefs put you on the fringe: outside the christian faith.
ringing someone's doorbell attemping to prove Jesus is not I AM.
that's why you keep hearing it.
why not?
don't you want to know where her stuff comes from?
~ that's odd 'common ground' to stand on with someone you disagree with on every other matter.