Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh
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Now I agree that once saved the individual does not need to keep getting on their knees in repentance every time they sin, because if the conversion is a true one they want to be free of the sin, their battle is to keep looking to Christ and trusting him
They will feel acutelu the sin anyway as the good laws of God he would have them keep have been written on their hearts and mind
To me there are two types of sin which must be viewed very differently
The sin a person takes into their Christian life from their former life that they are desperate to be free of, and the wilfull deliberate sin committed once the individual has been set free of that sin by grace
At conversion much sin the individual can themselves stop, but not the deep rooted sin that controls them
But I must repeat when we firstly come to God we do repent, it is automastic it does not have to be a command for the Holy Spirit has come upon us
They will feel acutelu the sin anyway as the good laws of God he would have them keep have been written on their hearts and mind
To me there are two types of sin which must be viewed very differently
The sin a person takes into their Christian life from their former life that they are desperate to be free of, and the wilfull deliberate sin committed once the individual has been set free of that sin by grace
At conversion much sin the individual can themselves stop, but not the deep rooted sin that controls them
But I must repeat when we firstly come to God we do repent, it is automastic it does not have to be a command for the Holy Spirit has come upon us
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I can see it now.
Example 1 - Here's the believer that gets tempted with sin and he begins like this, 'Oh Lord this temptation is so great, I don't want to sin but I can't help myself'... and he goes right on and commits the sin and suffered from guilt mentally and emotionally before he actually sinned.
Example 2 - Then you have another with the same kind of temptation and he says, I don't care and goes off and sins willfully.
If I were God (and I'm not) I would want to slap that man in Example 1, who is nothing more than a wishy-washy, mamzy-pamzy, good for nothing weak minded believer and should be chastised for his incontinency. But the man who just goes out and blows it willfully, because he has no self control of his old sin nature, that man God can work with and teach him how to receive mercy and strength through grace.
Example 1 - Here's the believer that gets tempted with sin and he begins like this, 'Oh Lord this temptation is so great, I don't want to sin but I can't help myself'... and he goes right on and commits the sin and suffered from guilt mentally and emotionally before he actually sinned.
Example 2 - Then you have another with the same kind of temptation and he says, I don't care and goes off and sins willfully.
If I were God (and I'm not) I would want to slap that man in Example 1, who is nothing more than a wishy-washy, mamzy-pamzy, good for nothing weak minded believer and should be chastised for his incontinency. But the man who just goes out and blows it willfully, because he has no self control of his old sin nature, that man God can work with and teach him how to receive mercy and strength through grace.
Hi PPS
I have written this briefly on another post
I do respect much of what you say on this website. You certainly stand on scripture for the requirement for salvation though you believe Christ is God Himself and I admire you for that, but I feel I must reply to the above.
As I have stated on another post, the KJV of the Bible is considered a very reputable translation.
I believe it took scholars from around the world 15 years to write the NIV and to agree the wording of it. I have to be honest here, if I am expected to believe anyone on a Christian internet chat site has understanding of the Greek better than did the writers of the KJV or the NIV I am hardly likely to accept it, though doubtless you will not agree with me I hope you will understand how I reach that conclusion
Also, I freely admit as is scriptural that Christ is refered to as 'God' in the Bible, but not the one true God, I am sure you have read the verses I have quoted on this
You have said that according to the English translastions you could not answer all of my questions but according to the Greek you could, so I guess we could never reach agreement on this subject
One of the first people I ever discussed this with on the internet had certain rules
If he could not answer scripture I put before him the reply was
You are taking the verse out of context
We have to read the Bible as a 'cohesive whole'
We need to refer back to the ancient texts
But any scripture he placed before me I was expected to literally accept as it was written
I can't call that a level playing field
But can I ask your opinion on something.
It is not so much concerning the non Biblical stance of some who say we must believe Christ is God Himself to have eternal life. As you know I have repeatedly asked Phil to provide me with a Baptist sermon where it is stated a belief that Christ is the son of God but not God himself means you can have no eternal life and are condemnd
He is not going to be able to find me any sermon from any masinstream Baptist church in the UK that will preach that fron the pulpit as well he knows, thereby showing the absurdity of his position.
But my main point is this
I accept most believe Christ is God Himself. I don't know how many consider it a salvation issue, but obviously it is something considered to be one of the basic beliefs in the Christian faith by so many
So as you do not seem to be blindly fanatical and can give well considered answers I would like to put something to you
Whatever Phil's protestations I went to Trinitarian churches in England for thirty years. I never once heard it said plainly from the pulpit 'Christ is God Himself', I am sure I would have remembered if I had. I mainly went to Baptist and Pentecostal churches
To his credit I was chatting to an RC or Church of England believer on an English website. He said that in his church it was not preached from the pulpit that Christ was God(Oh I do so appreciate honesty rather than a blindness and narrowmindedness that cannot admit the plain truth) but in the prayers they recited it was alluded to in certain ways, but I doubt the words
Christ is God Himself were used
I believe you have said that Baptists believe Christ is God but it would rarely be preached
So my question is this and I think it a fair one to ask
If these denominations believe Christ is God and it is so important to the Christian faith, why do they not preach and proclaim this plainly, loudly and continuously from the pulpit? After all, to many this is a core if not the core belief in Christianity. But they do not plainly and loudly preach it from what I have seen
It is as if it is an unwritten rule to so many but they are afraid to loudly proclaim it, I can think of no other reason they would not. So I to say the least am not impressed at all. If a church denomination either believes this subject is the basis of the Christian faith or vital a belief for salvation it is ridiculous to suggest they should not be loudly proclaiming it from the pulpit, and they are it must be said letting their congregations down terribly by not doing so
So why do you think they are not loudly proclaiming it?
I have written this briefly on another post
I do respect much of what you say on this website. You certainly stand on scripture for the requirement for salvation though you believe Christ is God Himself and I admire you for that, but I feel I must reply to the above.
As I have stated on another post, the KJV of the Bible is considered a very reputable translation.
I believe it took scholars from around the world 15 years to write the NIV and to agree the wording of it. I have to be honest here, if I am expected to believe anyone on a Christian internet chat site has understanding of the Greek better than did the writers of the KJV or the NIV I am hardly likely to accept it, though doubtless you will not agree with me I hope you will understand how I reach that conclusion
Also, I freely admit as is scriptural that Christ is refered to as 'God' in the Bible, but not the one true God, I am sure you have read the verses I have quoted on this
You have said that according to the English translastions you could not answer all of my questions but according to the Greek you could, so I guess we could never reach agreement on this subject
One of the first people I ever discussed this with on the internet had certain rules
If he could not answer scripture I put before him the reply was
You are taking the verse out of context
We have to read the Bible as a 'cohesive whole'
We need to refer back to the ancient texts
But any scripture he placed before me I was expected to literally accept as it was written
I can't call that a level playing field
But can I ask your opinion on something.
It is not so much concerning the non Biblical stance of some who say we must believe Christ is God Himself to have eternal life. As you know I have repeatedly asked Phil to provide me with a Baptist sermon where it is stated a belief that Christ is the son of God but not God himself means you can have no eternal life and are condemnd
He is not going to be able to find me any sermon from any masinstream Baptist church in the UK that will preach that fron the pulpit as well he knows, thereby showing the absurdity of his position.
But my main point is this
I accept most believe Christ is God Himself. I don't know how many consider it a salvation issue, but obviously it is something considered to be one of the basic beliefs in the Christian faith by so many
So as you do not seem to be blindly fanatical and can give well considered answers I would like to put something to you
Whatever Phil's protestations I went to Trinitarian churches in England for thirty years. I never once heard it said plainly from the pulpit 'Christ is God Himself', I am sure I would have remembered if I had. I mainly went to Baptist and Pentecostal churches
To his credit I was chatting to an RC or Church of England believer on an English website. He said that in his church it was not preached from the pulpit that Christ was God(Oh I do so appreciate honesty rather than a blindness and narrowmindedness that cannot admit the plain truth) but in the prayers they recited it was alluded to in certain ways, but I doubt the words
Christ is God Himself were used
I believe you have said that Baptists believe Christ is God but it would rarely be preached
So my question is this and I think it a fair one to ask
If these denominations believe Christ is God and it is so important to the Christian faith, why do they not preach and proclaim this plainly, loudly and continuously from the pulpit? After all, to many this is a core if not the core belief in Christianity. But they do not plainly and loudly preach it from what I have seen
It is as if it is an unwritten rule to so many but they are afraid to loudly proclaim it, I can think of no other reason they would not. So I to say the least am not impressed at all. If a church denomination either believes this subject is the basis of the Christian faith or vital a belief for salvation it is ridiculous to suggest they should not be loudly proclaiming it from the pulpit, and they are it must be said letting their congregations down terribly by not doing so
So why do you think they are not loudly proclaiming it?
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To try and explain this a bit more fully.
A sincere conversion takes place. The convert desperately wants to live as God would have them live, for the good laws of God He would have them keep have been written on their hearts and minds by the spirit, that is the new covenant
This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord
I will put my laws in their hearts
And write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb 10:16&17
In the Old Testament God told Moses to tell the people to circumcise their hearts
Duet 10:16
But the people were far away from God in their hearts, they kept rebelling against him
God told Moses the people were stiff necked they would soon desert following him when they reached the promised land
But under the new covenant the heart is circumcised by the Holy Spirit
Rom 2:29
So the true convert loves God and wants in their heart to live as God would have them live, but they have a problem, the flesh
Spiurgeon said that when a person becomes saved it is like approaching a high mountain, far too steep to climb but most do try and climb it, inevitably they fail and end up back at the bottom where they started. He likens this to following after the law
But at the bottom of the mountain is a narrow gorge, so narrow that most fail to see it, it is the way of Jesus and leads to the other side.
So what happens to the true convert if they do not know the truth of grace? What if no-one has told them the truth?
They try and climb that mountain, and of course they must fail and get dispirited
So they have two choices. They can give up believing they are not good enough for God, or they can become hard nosed(not likely from a truly sincere convert)
So many in churches who have never understood the truth are left with no option than to profess they are people they know they are not deep in their hearts. They are hardly likely to admit their true state to their friends in the church
The truly sincere convert who wants nothing more than to please God feels crushed. They know they are not, cannot live the life others are PROFESSING to live and all too often they give up. Actually for the sincere convert if they try to attain Heaven by being 'GOOD ENOUGH' (always has to be according to law when you think about it) they will in all probability become worse sinners
Rom 5:20 Rom 7:7-11
But for someone who does understand the truth of grace, they know in their hearts they are secure with God through one thing only, faith in Christ who died for their sins, and that is for the whole of their Christian lives
Rom 1:17
Now, we know sin/satan used the good laws of God to condemn man Rom 7:7-11
But in Rom 3:21-30 Paul goes into detail that we have a righteousness apart from the law, we are justified without observing the law. But of course Paul knew what the charge would be.
'Well then, if I am justified apart from observing the law I migjt as well do what I want, it doesn't matter, I am saved by faith
And so Paul put to bed that notion in the last verse of the chapter
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
You see satan has but one battering ram with which to hit the sincere convert
They are not good enough, worthy enough for God, and anyone who falls for it and follows the way of self righteousness, the law, being good enough is just giving satan more and more power in their lives to dispirit them and make them give up
As you said
The power of sin is the law 1 Cor 15:56
But it is in that moment when a person knows in their heart that they are secure with God by faith in his son, and that is their only righteousness for as long as they live in God's eyes, sin MUST start to lose its power in their lives, for its power source, the law has been removed.
Hence
Do we themn nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
So you see it would be absolutely impossible under a sincere conversion in the truth of grace for ANYONE to remain in the state I have often mentioned for ten years after conversion. It could not happen
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace(through faith)
Rom 6:14
Does that mean a convert will be perfect in the flesh on this earth? I have never met anyone who claimed to be so
For by one sacrifice he has made forever PERFECT those who are being made Holy
So in God's eyes the Christian is seen as perfect because all God sees is that his son died for their sin.
So the true sin of the true convert is to take their eyes and heart off Christ and cease trusting him to deliver them and make them all he would have them be through the spirit, and to wilfully look away to the flesh, for if a person in their herart is looking to Christ in faith they do not want to fulfill the lusts of the flesh
For the new convert it is their job to look to Christ and trust in him, as a limpet clinging to a rock despite the sin being committed that they in their hearts are desperate to be free of. They must stand on faith, not law(beiung good enough) for they are not under law but under grace.
And it will not be easy, for satan will whisper nbegative thoughts in their minds, but if they persevere in faith they will see the victory, for the spirit will sanctify them
But as a person grows and becomes stronger in the faith and is set free of certain sins by faith in Christ, if they then wilfully deliberately turn away from looking to Christ and seek to satisy the desires of the flesh that is very different from the person who has taken deep rooted sin into their Christian life but is desperate to be free of it
In such circumstances the person will need to come before God in repentance.
AMEN!
anyone who doesn't understand this is actually denying that it is by Grace, and through God's Power ALONE the bondage to sin is broken. (man's ability to restrain himself from acting out has nothing to do with the transformed life that comes from the new birth - but the pietistic moralist can't see this).
what brings about the transformation?:
a decade in AA doesn't do it; self-help groups don't do it; psychiatric drugs don't do it; a ton of friends telling one how much they are loved doesn't do it; lectures on morality don't do it; "bootstrap" preaching doesn't do it; monasticism doesn't do it.
'behaviour modification' is not the new birth.
the preaching of The Law & Gospel does it....by the regenerating POWER of the Spirit.
for by GRACE you have been saved, through FAITH: and that is NOT YOUR OWN DOING.
anyone who doesn't understand this is actually denying that it is by Grace, and through God's Power ALONE the bondage to sin is broken. (man's ability to restrain himself from acting out has nothing to do with the transformed life that comes from the new birth - but the pietistic moralist can't see this).
what brings about the transformation?:
a decade in AA doesn't do it; self-help groups don't do it; psychiatric drugs don't do it; a ton of friends telling one how much they are loved doesn't do it; lectures on morality don't do it; "bootstrap" preaching doesn't do it; monasticism doesn't do it.
'behaviour modification' is not the new birth.
the preaching of The Law & Gospel does it....by the regenerating POWER of the Spirit.
for by GRACE you have been saved, through FAITH: and that is NOT YOUR OWN DOING.
you set up a strawman (your 10 year sinner-man), then expect everybody to talk to it.
meanwhile, you don't like "theologians or scholars", yet you shill for Kathryn Kundalini Khulman
z-z-z-z-z.
Well first of all SCRIPTURALLY I am right about that ten year example as you should well know
As for KK
There is something I find rather distasteful if I am honest
Eventually KK sacrificed everything for God to do the work he set before her
Have you ever sacrificed everything Zone? I know I haven't. It is easy to say we have, but what are words?
The healings that went into her books had to satisfy the following criteria
The healing was at least five years old
There had been no reoccurence of the illness
Two doctors/speacialists had to verify the former condition of the person who had been healed
The medical records of the person had to be released
People were healed, they worshipped God, people of all denominations, they went back to their churches and testified to what had been done forthem by a loving God and many became saved on their testimony
And KK demanded all the glory went to God for a persons healing, it was nothing to do with her
But I know, you think all of that was by satan
Well go on Zone, malign her as much as you can, maybe it will make you feel better. Produce pages of transcripts from those who did not accept her ministry
I do wonder why many seem to have to criticise those God has used so powerfully, and those who have paid the ultimate price to serve him, and those who demand God has all the glory
I kinda think I have only recently given the answer
PS
I don't think KK believed she was a scholar or theologian
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Unfortunately Zone you are speaking with a heart full of anger, therefore I doubt you are thinking as you should concerning this subject
A while ago you were agreeing with everything I said concerning the Gospel of Grace.
You were saying Amen to many of my posts on the subkject, and happy to endorse what you said was the Gospel being written
Well none of my opinions have changed but your heart has toward me, and that is plainly what is driving you here
I will tell you once more for I have told you this already. If you choose to ignore it again sobeit.
David had already proved he was a man after God's own heart. He had delighted in his statutes and done continuously what God told him to
Yes he then fell as you have described and paid a heavy price for thet sin and bitterly repented of it
In the example I gave, a man claimed a salvation experiance and IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS and for the next ten years constantly, ceaselessly, continually got drjunk, had affairs, beat their wife and did not read a Bible
If you cannot see the difference between King David and the man I describe you are blinded by anger and a desperate desire to criticise me at all cost. Either that, or you understand nothing concerning the Gospel, I believe it has to be the former
You know when we have great anger for someone we do not hurt the person we have great anger for, but we do hurt ourselves
A while ago you were agreeing with everything I said concerning the Gospel of Grace.
You were saying Amen to many of my posts on the subkject, and happy to endorse what you said was the Gospel being written
Well none of my opinions have changed but your heart has toward me, and that is plainly what is driving you here
I will tell you once more for I have told you this already. If you choose to ignore it again sobeit.
David had already proved he was a man after God's own heart. He had delighted in his statutes and done continuously what God told him to
Yes he then fell as you have described and paid a heavy price for thet sin and bitterly repented of it
In the example I gave, a man claimed a salvation experiance and IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS and for the next ten years constantly, ceaselessly, continually got drjunk, had affairs, beat their wife and did not read a Bible
If you cannot see the difference between King David and the man I describe you are blinded by anger and a desperate desire to criticise me at all cost. Either that, or you understand nothing concerning the Gospel, I believe it has to be the former
You know when we have great anger for someone we do not hurt the person we have great anger for, but we do hurt ourselves
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