Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

Judges1318

Banned
#145,704
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#145,704
preacher4truth said:
Those truly converted will not fail to believe.
Click to expand...
I respect the argument.
I think there are those for whom that is true (4th type of soil believers).
I think there are those for whom it is not true (2nd and 3rd type of soil believers).
Simply put, any potential for being OSAS is attained over time and belongs to the mature in Christ.

preacher4truth said:
What is the error of Freegrace you are referring to exactly?
Click to expand...
It says the believer can fall so far as to even go back to unbelief and they are still saved.
No amount of willful sinning, blasphemy, or unbelief can cause the believer to lose their salvation.
It never occurred to me that the church could one day be consumed by this belief.
But it's happening right now.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#145,707
#145,707
Judges1318 said:
Yes, and this is considered by all of us to not be a work of the works gospel. But some insist if you have to continue in that believing it does become a work of the works gospel for it would be you doing something to save yourself. It wasn't doing something to save myself when I started it. How can it suddenly now be me doing something to save myself? Their reasoning doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...
Your continued believing removes the object of one's belief which is Jesus... because in your system there is no definitive/final result of that belief.
Therefore yes under your false system salvation can be lost.

Under the correct view of salvation the object of our belief is Jesus and it is because of whom we have trusted that we are secure.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#145,708
Jul 3, 2015
60,145
29,456
113
#145,708
Judges1318 said:
I respect the argument.
I think there are those for whom that is true (4th type of soil believers).
I think there are those for whom it is not true (2nd and 3rd type of soil believers).
Simply put, any potential for being OSAS is attained over time and belongs to the mature in Christ.


It says the believer can fall so far as to even go back to unbelief and they are still saved.
No amount of willful sinning, blasphemy, or unbelief can cause the believer to lose their salvation.
It never occurred to me that the church could one day be consumed by this belief.
But it's happening right now.
Click to expand...


My latest ^^ :)

It is not done, though, as (for one thing) no verse citations have been added yet.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#145,711
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#145,711
Judges1318 said:
I respect the argument.
I think there are those for whom that is true (4th type of soil believers).
Click to expand...
I see only the fourth as truly converted.


It says the believer can fall so far as to even go back to unbelief and they are still saved.
No amount of willful sinning, blasphemy, or unbelief can cause the believer to lose their salvation.
It never occurred to me that the church could one day be consumed by this belief.
But it's happening right now.
Click to expand...
I hear you. There are some who believe no matter how one lives, if they punched their ticket once, they're "going to heaven when they die." This even in the face of Scripture that shows those living in sin are to be warned about being deceived.

Some will even go as far as to defend them in their sin. This is the error of Zane Hodges and others. Yes, I agree this is wrong, and also believe it shows a lack of true conversion when there is no transformation and living in and practicing sin. Therefore I don't see it as a loss of salvation.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#145,712
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#145,712
EleventhHour said:
Your continued believing removes the object of one's belief which is Jesus...
Click to expand...
That's what YOU say it does.
Continued believing is the very same uninterrupted BELIEVING IN CHRIST that you started out in.
It's not a different believing. It's the same believing you had from the beginning.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#145,713
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#145,713
mailmandan said:
Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not merit based salvation.
Click to expand...
Here’s why we say it’s merit. You teach that God elected those He knew would believe. You teach faith is a gift, but it can be rejected. Those who accept the gift, God knew they’d be willing to accept it, so He elected them accordingly. Tell me if/where I have misrepresented your view, as I truly wish to do not do that.

Now, God holds out the gift and fallen man reaches out a takes hold of it. Only then, are they made alive in Christ. That’s work. If you have to do anything to gain eternal life, then that constitutes a work. We teach(and the Bible avers) that faith is a gift given at the point of being made alive. They then exercise it and are saved. Faith is the EVIDENCE of conversion not the cause. Just like works are an evidence of salvation not the cause.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#145,714
#145,714
Judges1318 said:
That's what YOU say it does.
Continued believing is the very same uninterrupted BELIEVING IN CHRIST that you started out in.
It's not a different believing. It's the same believing you had from the beginning.
Click to expand...
What is the result if the first belief?
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#145,715
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#145,715
mailmandan said:
Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not merit based salvation.
Click to expand...
So, God elected those He knew would be willing. Then that means He never elected those He knew wouldn’t be willing. So even in your schema, you have God leaving ppl in their fallen condition.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#145,717
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#145,717
preacher4truth said:
I see only the fourth as truly converted.
Click to expand...
Yes, I understand, and I respect the argument.
But I have to be honest with myself that as a Spirit-filled, devout believer I've spent most of my Christian life in the 3rd type of soil. :(
And it has helped me to be more gracious and understanding to those who struggle in their own '7 x 70' relationship with God.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#145,718
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#145,718
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
So, God elected those He knew would be willing. Then that means He never elected those He knew wouldn’t be willing. So even in your schema, you have God leaving ppl in their fallen condition.
Click to expand...
Finney's heresy of decisional regeneration has wreaked havoc on the church.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#145,720
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#145,720
Judges1318 said:
Yes, I understand, and I respect the argument.
But I have to be honest with myself that as a Spirit-filled, devout believer I've spent most of my Christian life in the 3rd type of soil. :(
And it has helped me to be more gracious and understanding to those who struggle in their own '7 x 70' relationship with God.
Click to expand...
I'd say you're mixing sanctification unto usefulness with conversion and justification.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.