Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#145,921
#145,921
Magenta said:
Choice, as I said before, is a sticking point. Some say they did nothing, i.e., played no role whatsoever in their salvation, and that would include making a choice, while at the same time saying nobody is forced. But it can't be both. It is either/or. One either makes a choice, or they have no choice in the matter.
Click to expand...
Good point for sure.

Agree, it cannot be both
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#145,922
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#145,922
mailmandan said:
This explains why I don't understand the logic of election as taught in Calvinism. Salvation by grace through faith, not works is not turning grace into merit. Salvation by works would be merit -- ..and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. There is no merit in receiving a free gift through faith. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1-2) It's a choice. No merit for man and Christ gets all the merit for salvation. We either accept the free gift of eternal life or reject it.
Click to expand...
In your schema, faith is a gift, but they must be willing to accept that gift. Here’s why we teach what your side teaches as a meritorious salvation. Martha is lost, dead in transgressions and sins. God reaches out the gift of faith, but He won’t violate her free will, because He would then be forcing it upon her by violating her free will. She has to be willing to reach out and take it, as a gift can also be rejected. It is only after she willingly accepts the gift, she is saved. It has her reaching out and then receiving salvation because she did something, reach out and accept that gift. That’s a work, plain as day. You teach those that do something, reach out and accept the gift, are saved. Those who reject it aren’t saved. You’re teaching salvation is based upon what they did, not what God did in Christ.

Martha is not saved because she reached out and accepted the gift. That empties the cross of its power. Martha is not saved because she did anything, but what God did for her through His Christ.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#145,923
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#145,923
jackrosie said:
I never made a choice...Why did he choose me?

He has shown me his will for my life..which is coming to pass...it’s been amazing watching it unfold.

Little me saved by Almighty God......how Awesome is that.....
Click to expand...
Well, you did choose Him. But it was He who first chose you and saved you at the appointed time. You choosing Him is the evidence of your election, not the cause of it.
 
jackrosie

jackrosie

Banned
#145,924
May 19, 2020
3,050
1,275
113
#145,924
eternally-gratefull said:
This makes sense. Maybe a better term would be he was made alive

Where once he sinned he died and had to be born again (Saved) because it was then he required grace

I agree I think that he was able to sin it’s part of free will that God gives man the way i see it
Click to expand...

Adam was made in God’s own image wasn’t he.?

So he must have been perfect and upright surely?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#145,925
Jul 3, 2015
60,140
29,452
113
#145,925
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
In your schema, faith is a gift, but they must be willing to accept that gift. Here’s why we teach what your side teaches as a meritorious salvation. Martha is lost, dead in transgressions and sins. God reaches out the gift of faith, but He won’t violate her free will, because He would then be forcing it upon her by violating her free will. She has to be willing to reach out and take it, as a gift can also be rejected. It is only after she willingly accepts the gift, she is saved. It has her reaching out and then receiving salvation because she did something, reach out and accept that gift. That’s a work, plain as day. You teach those that do something, reach out and accept the gift, are saved. Those who reject it aren’t saved. You’re teaching salvation is based upon what they did, not what God did in Christ.

Martha is not saved because she reached out and accepted the gift. That empties the cross of its power. Martha is not saved because she did anything, but what God did for her through His Christ.
Click to expand...
That's a flat-out blatant misrepresentation. Deliberate? Maybe. But NOBODY here is denying that it is Jesus Who saves.
 
jackrosie

jackrosie

Banned
#145,926
May 19, 2020
3,050
1,275
113
#145,926
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Well, you did choose Him. But it was He who first chose you and saved you at the appointed time. You choosing Him is the evidence of your election, not the cause of it.
Click to expand...


Amen....I choose to follow him.....because there is no other way....God’s way is the only way.....there is no other way for me to go but to follow God.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#145,928
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#145,928
jackrosie said:
I never made a choice...Why did he choose me?

He has shown me his will for my life..which is coming to pass...it’s been amazing watching it unfold.

Little me saved by Almighty God......how Awesome is that.....
Click to expand...
Amen!

We received him because we were born of God. John 1:12-13. It doesn't say we were born of God because we chose him by our will, as some on here teach. The verses flat out deny we are born of God via choosing or human will, yet many on here keep teaching the exact opposite no matter that the text dogmatically refutes them. The passage gives the insight of why we are saved, and gives all glory to God!
 
jackrosie

jackrosie

Banned
#145,929
May 19, 2020
3,050
1,275
113
#145,929
[QUOTE="Sackcloth-N-Ashes, post: 4308051, member: 276606"

Martha is not saved because she reached out and accepted the gift. That empties the cross of its power. Martha is not saved because she did anything, but what God did for her through His Christ.[/QUOTE]



AMEN!!
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#145,930
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#145,930
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#145,931
Jul 3, 2015
60,140
29,452
113
#145,931
EleventhHour said:
Good point for sure.

Agree, it cannot be both
Click to expand...
The other side of their position is - you must do something to remain saved LOL.

Then they say they play no role in their salvation.

So contradictory. Also: on one hand they claim people can lose their
salvation while also saying they believe in the preservation of the saints.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

Senior Member
#145,932
Nov 17, 2015
4,110
960
113
#145,932
responding by faith is not a work but it works the moment you believe. So when I believe, what Christ did on the cross, i believe the gospel for my salvation then I am saved.
 
jackrosie

jackrosie

Banned
#145,933
May 19, 2020
3,050
1,275
113
#145,933
Magenta said:
The other side of their position is - you must do something to remain saved LOL.

Then they say they play no role in their salvation.

So contradictory. Also: on one hand they claim people can lose their
salvation while also saying they believe in the preservation of the saints.
Click to expand...

Who is they?

Can you explain what you mean by this post?..thanks,x
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#145,934
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
#145,934
fredoheaven said:
responding by faith is not a work but it works the moment you believe. So when I believe, what Christ did on the cross, i believe the gospel for my salvation then I am saved.
Click to expand...
Responding by faith is the evidence of salvation, not the cause. That’s what we believe and the Bible avers.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#145,937
Jul 3, 2015
60,140
29,452
113
#145,937
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Responding by faith is the evidence of salvation, not the cause. That’s what we believe and the Bible avers.
Click to expand...
So you did a work by responding, according to your logic. Responding is playing a role. Unless you had no choice and were forced.

Like the sword being drawn from its scabbard, as you illustratively used earlier. It has no choice.
 
Blue_Of_Lake

Blue_Of_Lake

Active member
#145,939
Jun 12, 2020
212
83
28
#145,939
Magenta said:
The other side of their position is - you must do something to remain saved LOL.

Then they say they play no role in their salvation.

So contradictory. Also: on one hand they claim people can lose their
salvation while also saying they believe in the preservation of the saints.
Click to expand...


if we understood it from God's perspective then it would All finally make sense and nothing would contradict.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#145,940
Jul 3, 2015
60,140
29,452
113
#145,940
Blue_Of_Lake said:
if we understood it from God's perspective then it would All finally make sense and nothing would contradict.
Click to expand...
God makes it possible, for sure!

It seems to me to be similar to the argument some put forth, that God allowing for evil means He created it.

Some will even foolishly claim that good cannot exist without evil, when GOD IS GOOD, and preexists everything else.

One has to wonder at some of what certain people say.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.