Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

If He owes them the opportunity then that’s the antithesis of grace...obligation.

Grace means he offers all..

If he only offers some. Thats not grace.. (if we get right down to it)

The bible said he placed all under adam. They had no choice, they put them under adam, and being under adam, all were born dead.

The purpose was so that he could (had the possibility or ability) to place all under Christ.

If he placed ALL under adam, But only selects a few to put under christ, then it defeats the purpose of putting everyone under adam.

He should have just let everyone go and put us all under law. and we all get what we deserve

 

[PennEd]

I see what your saying

But I do not see how someone choosing to have faith in Christ is him birthing himself. That is the issue we are getting at here

Using this example

You have some being born, then God grants them grace and they saved

and others never being born. and never offered grace

well the ones who were never born or offered grace spend eternity in hell.

This is the problem which bothers people

I fully understand what bothers people brother. In my human understanding it bothers me. But that’s just it, it’s my human understanding, with my 3 pound brain, trying to understand the wisdom, purposes, intentions, and motives, of the Being that created everything that is possibly conceivable.

 

[Duskey]

Many are tossed about with every wind of doctrine when their foundation is shakey due to a lack of growth.....Calvinism is a cult indeed!

Reminds me of when I attended a UMC congregation for about a year. The pastor revered john wesley more than Jesus Christ.

Then a new pastor took over and stated on several occasions that islam is a beautiful religion. These were ordained ministers. What the hell is wrong with people?

 

[EleventhHour]

I fully understand what bothers people brother. In my human understanding it bothers me. But that’s just it, it’s my human understanding, with my 3 pound brain, trying to understand the wisdom, purposes, intentions, and motives, of the Being that created everything that is possibly conceivable.

You can trust your human understanding on this because it is not in scripture ...God does not love only some unto salvation and yet

hold men who had no choice accountable.

 

[Magenta]

God wants us to come to Him? Then what about Matthew 18:12-14 where it shows He actively pursues His lost sheep?

And yet we are also told that God wants all to come to repentance, He is pursuing but not forcing, where is the middle ground?

 

[Judges1318]

being under adam, all were born dead.

I wasn't born dead, I was born unclothed with Christ but blameless, like Adam.
And like Adam, when the commandment came, that is when I died:

"9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." - Romans 7:9-11

You die when you sin with accountability.

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 1:13-14

 

[Magenta]

1 Timothy 2:1-4

 

[tourist]

I gave the scripture, you edited it out of my response.

Yeah, I realized that after I posted. My bad per usual. I do appreciate you providing the pertinent scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep. It destroys grace. Grace is not obligation.

Would it be fair to say people need to revisit grace, and in turn, be floored by what it really is? I mean, God's Son nailed to a tree paying for our wicked sins????

Grace is given out of love

If God claims to be long suffering and a God of love, and telling us to love himself even our enemies.

Then should he not be our greatest example of what true love looks like?

If he does not offer grace to all. is he not practicing what he himself preaches?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hold on a minute. You’ve said repeatedly God, via His foreknowledge, knew who would be willing, and He elected them based upon that foreknowledge. That means those He knew would never be willing He didn’t elect. You’ve just taught He passed over those He knew wouldn’t be willing by implication and the logical conclusion of your argument here.

it seems mailmandan said exactly what your asking in this post. So I am not sure what you are trying to say here

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He isn't offering logic, and it isn't fatalism, it's biblical truth. God does not owe man a choice, that decisional regeneration fallacy has come into the church of late, it says God owes man opportunity or he isn't fair. That isn't biblical whatsoever.

its fatalism

fatalism is a term used by any to describe a view that god has made up his mind who he elects and who he does not. and no one has a say in the matter. Their eternity is determined. (fatalism)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep, and that entire philosophy which is not biblical turns grace into merit. God chose me BECAUSE of the act he saw me do. BECAUSE I did that, he chose me. That means by your act you merited being chosen.

That is not grace as grace is unmerited favor.

Nope. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. John 1:13 dogmatically denies human will as having any determining factor in our salvation.

how many times do we need to speak to the point this is not true. and you are claiming people are saying something they have not said?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Interesting
'
No has stated anything with regards to God owing, that is your straw man.

God has already pronounced the He gives each man the opportunity.... your dogma denies this and instead limits the opportunity and

attempts to justify this limited opportunity (which is contrary to scripture) by stating He does not owe.


That is right He does not owe... He gives... the non Calvinist God gives.

sad

 

[Magenta]

its fatalism

fatalism is a term used by any to describe a view that god has made up his mind who he elects and who he does not. and no one has a say in the matter. Their eternity is determined. (fatalism)

Out of that comes the unavoidable conclusion that, according to some beliefs, God will then punish forever after those who fail to respond to something that was never put to them in the first place. Whereas Scripture attests to the fact that Jesus is drawing all men to Himself.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thats funny,

I been waiting for you to answer my question about adam,

Well, you asked about Adam after my response to a previous post of yours. In fact, you said you went back to something else. I was set to show you that people do place demands on God.

But that being said, moving along here.

 

[preacher4truth]

how many times do we need to speak to the point this is not true. and you are claiming people are saying something they have not said?

We? This was you and I.

There is evidence of it, but I'm going to take a pass, as it has been my experience that even when proof is given, it is denied.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God chooses who he elects..we don’t choose him....to me that is such an honour to be chosen by God.

When I was saved....I felt honoured and more important than the Queen....seriously I did.

yes. You could not chose him anyway.. All you could do was chose salvation.. You do not even know him until after you are saved

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I remember when I was first saved I believed that, then realized I came up with that on my own and not from scripture.

are you serious? you really thought you came up with it on your own?

I never met anyone who thought this

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This explains why I don't understand the logic of election as taught in Calvinism. Salvation by grace through faith, not works is not turning grace into merit. Salvation by works would be merit -- ..and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. There is no merit in receiving a free gift through faith. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1-2) It's a choice. No merit for man and Christ gets all the merit for salvation. We either accept the free gift of eternal life or reject it.

yes

For by grace we have been saved by grace through faith......Not of works...

Grace and faith is not works.. Works is anything added to grace and faith