The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[TheDivineWatermark]

These futurists wouldn't know what the rapture is if it snuck up and bit them.
[...]
Revelation 21:24-26 presents a similar message. According to these verses, the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open in order to forever allow the nations and kings of the earth to “bring their splendor into it.” If the rapture and resurrection occur all at once, as is commonly supposed in futurist circles, how is it that according to Revelation 14:13 and Revelation 21:24-26 people are continuously entering the New Jerusalem long after the resurrection and the rapture? These verses challenge this idea.

Apparently you were absent the day we covered the following point:

--"caught up [G726] TOGETHER [<--this word attaches to the verb 'caught up'--so this means 'caught up TOGETHER *at the same time* that the ones who "rise first" are CAUGHT UP] with them [in union with them] in the clouds to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR"

--secondly, "our Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"; Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); it does NOT pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK age saints! (and that is also why Paul says in 1Cor15:51 "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY" and says "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal"--in particular! Not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods, but only to/for/about whom "our RAPTURE" SOLELY pertains!, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ONLY! [and which requires "resurrection" for those [of the "ONE BODY"] who've died b/f "our Rapture"/"THE Departure" takes place at a singular point-in-time)

--"caught up / caught away / SNATCHED / harpazo / harpagēsometha / raptured / rapio [G726]" ... can be to anywhere, but where it's used in Thessalonians, it is speaking SOLELY of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and to the LOCATION pertaining to THAT [Subject]... so IOW, when it pertained to "Philip" in Acts 8:39, its meaning is governed by what v.8:40 tells us regarding his "destination location" (which was not "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" )

Personally I've been wrong WAY too many times to think that way.
If you notice, and I know you have, that they will strait up IGNORE and arguments that make too much sense to refute, so instead the feign offence and run away. For good. That question about the "3rd temple" goes unanswered and He will not address it at all.
It's crazy how much their behavior mirror the political leftist and Muslim apologist. Weird huh?

Personally, I've not "ignored" any arguments purposely (tho I do have a hard time KEEPING UP, as I am an extremely SLOW typist, and this kind of work is agonizing to my fingers, LOL)... in fact, I've repeated some of the arguments over and over and over, addressing these points (but which are sometimes "ignored" by the opposing viewpoint)

 

[KJV1611]

--"caught up [G726] TOGETHER [<--this word attaches to the verb 'caught up'--so this means 'caught up TOGETHER *at the same time* that the ones who "rise first" are CAUGHT UP] with them [in union with them] in the clouds to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR"

(1Th 4:17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So in English this verse reads as - "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up, together with them in the clouds..."

So why are you reading it as - "Then we which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together, with them in the clouds..."?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No. All saved Jews will be pre-trib raptured along with the saved gentiles. There is no division in the body of Christ.

The 144 000 come AFTER the body of Christ has left the building. Nice try to misrepresent

SPOT ON!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

(1Th 4:17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So in English this verse reads as - "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up, together with them in the clouds..."

So why are you reading it as - "Then we which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together, with them in the clouds..."?

First of all, there there is no punctuation in the Greek.

Secondly, as I went over with you before, ...see here (for the word "TOGETHER [G260 - hama]"):

G260 - hama - together (in 1Th4:17) -

"hama: at once
Original Word: ἅμα
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: hama
Phonetic Spelling: (ham'-ah)
Definition: at once
Usage: at the same time, therewith, along with, together with."


"[Strong's] A primary particle; properly, at the "same" time, but freely used as a preposition or adverb denoting close association -- also, and, together, with(-al). "

"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([meaning] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb." [<--the "verb" being "CAUGHT UP"]

https://biblehub.com/greek/260.htm

[quotes from BibleHub; bracketed explanations inserted and at the end mine; bold and underline mine; parentheses original]

 

[Absolutely]

Kolistus said:
""No. All saved Jews will be pre-trib raptured along with the saved gentiles. There is no division in the body of Christ.
The 144 000 come AFTER the body of Christ has left the building. Nice try to misrepresent""


QUOTE="TheDivineWatermark, post: 4308251, member: 273334"]SPOT ON! [/QUOTE]

I dont know if either side of that presumption has any traction.

The 144k are "firstfruits"

They could or could not be saved before the rapture.

IOW we see the foolish virgins left behind. They are saved but not taken.
We are given the reason.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

First of all, there there is no punctuation in the Greek.

Secondly, [...]

EDIT to correct: should read: "there is no punctuation in..." (not "there there" LOL... NOT ENOUGH TIME to EDIT )

"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([meaning] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb." [<--the "verb" being "CAUGHT UP" in 1Th4:17]

https://biblehub.com/greek/260.htm

So, class, does everyone understand that "adverbs must be joined to the verb" ? = )

 

[Absolutely]

EDIT to correct: should read: "there is no punctuation in..." (not "there there" LOL... NOT ENOUGH TIME to EDIT )

Maybe you meant. "Verily verily"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said: EDIT to correct: should read: "there is no punctuation in..." (not "there there" LOL... NOT ENOUGH TIME to EDIT )

Maybe you meant. "Verily verily"

I think I may have been sub-consciously comforting my throbbing knuckles! lol

 

[KJV1611]

First of all, there there is no punctuation in the Greek.

Secondly, as I went over with you before, ...see here (for the word "TOGETHER [G260 - hama]"):

G260 - hama - together (in 1Th4:17) -

"hama: at once
Original Word: ἅμα
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: hama
Phonetic Spelling: (ham'-ah)
Definition: at once
Usage: at the same time, therewith, along with, together with."


"[Strong's] A primary particle; properly, at the "same" time, but freely used as a preposition or adverb denoting close association -- also, and, together, with(-al). "

"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb ([meaning] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb." [<--the "verb" being "CAUGHT UP"]

https://biblehub.com/greek/260.htm

[quotes from BibleHub; bracketed explanations inserted and at the end mine; bold and underline mine; parentheses original]

Let's say you are right, where can we find this mass exodus of people whose bodies will never die in Old Testament prophecies?

 

[Truth7t7]

Ironically the parable has no fitment in postrib model.
No destroyed earth
No wartime anything
No ac chasing them or in the picture
No bride taken back to her house (your deal has the bride returning BACK to earth..HER HOME ..the parable has her going to the wedding chamber /heaven)

No taking her into battle
No horses

Another postrib no fit debacle

See there, you gave total (Disregard) to my claim that no man knows the day or hour, as you pretend like it didn't exist, it's posted again.

The ten Virgin parable is also about the "Second Coming" and no man knows the day or hour, as you falsely claim this is a Pre-Trib rapture, with millions being left behind on earth knowing the day and hour.

Matthew 25:10-13KJV
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[Truth7t7]

What do you think you proved?
Are you suggesting the virgins knew WHEN he was coming?

The parable clearly states they were waiting...not knowing when.

...you know....kinda like me.

Btw
In both noah and lot the inlaws were left behind...

You claim millions will be left behind on earth knowing the day and hour (God Only Knows) 1+1= 2

 

[Truth7t7]

Let's say you are right, where can we find this mass exodus of people whose bodies will never die in Old Testament prophecies?

Denial of the future bodily resurrection is considered by many to be Heresy, and I agree.

Isaiah 26:19KJV
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

 

[KJV1611]

Isaiah 26:19KJV
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

That's the resurrection of DEAD BODIES. I'm looking of scripture about LIVE BODIES being taken into heaven on a mass scale like the "rapture".

 

[Jimbone]

Apparently you were absent the day we covered the following point:

--"caught up [G726] TOGETHER [<--this word attaches to the verb 'caught up'--so this means 'caught up TOGETHER *at the same time* that the ones who "rise first" are CAUGHT UP] with them [in union with them] in the clouds to the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR"

--secondly, "our Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"; Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); it does NOT pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK age saints! (and that is also why Paul says in 1Cor15:51 "Behold, I SHEW you A MYSTERY" and says "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal"--in particular! Not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods, but only to/for/about whom "our RAPTURE" SOLELY pertains!, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ONLY! [and which requires "resurrection" for those [of the "ONE BODY"] who've died b/f "our Rapture"/"THE Departure" takes place at a singular point-in-time)

--"caught up / caught away / SNATCHED / harpazo / harpagēsometha / raptured / rapio [G726]" ... can be to anywhere, but where it's used in Thessalonians, it is speaking SOLELY of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and to the LOCATION pertaining to THAT [Subject]... so IOW, when it pertained to "Philip" in Acts 8:39, its meaning is governed by what v.8:40 tells us regarding his "destination location" (which was not "the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" )






Personally, I've not "ignored" any arguments purposely (tho I do have a hard time KEEPING UP, as I am an extremely SLOW typist, and this kind of work is agonizing to my fingers, LOL)... in fact, I've repeated some of the arguments over and over and over, addressing these points (but which are sometimes "ignored" by the opposing viewpoint)

Just for the record I wasn't referring to you at all. I was speaking about the person (I have personally asked this question to multiple times in many threads, and can't even get a response). I apologize if that was offensive to you, I didn't want to straight up say names, which I'm sure it made it seem I was making a blanket statement about everyone, but the truth is I wasn't aiming that at you at all. But understand when you say

"I've repeated some of the arguments over and over and over, addressing these points (but which are sometimes "ignored" by the opposing viewpoint)"

That doesn't apply to this case at all. I've asked this person this same question MANY times and I think the first time he answered once, very surface level answer, but once I dug any deeper I'm called offensive and on ignore. This isn't a matter of "missing the question in a sea of questions", this is just not dealing at all with a death blow to your whole eschatology, because ignoring it makes it go away I guess, but my point stands. I again laid out my argument and points politely and with kindness, and again don't even get the respect of a reply at all. Which to me is very telling all by it's self. IMHO.

 

[PlainWord]

The Spirit of Christ never left. The same spirit of faith that was working in the saints beforehand continued daily working in mankind giving daily bread..

The idea that Holy Spirit could leave this creation would mean it is the end. He holds all things together by the power of His Spirit. (time) While the Son of man was here doing the will of the father working in Jesus to both will and perform the good pleasure of the two as one God .

It created a difficulty which was cleared the moment he disappeared out of sight . In that way no man can serve two teaching Masters the flesh the (temporal) and the Spirit (eternal) .One must be greater in power. Or there can be no peace of God which does surpass our limited understanding.

No man can serve two teaching masters .(1)The things seen, the temporal Son of man, Jesus and (2) the Holy Spirit that worked in Jesus's earthen body.

The Son of man must go out of sight out of mind to rid the confusion and wondering . Is God a man? Wondering marveling is not a source of Christian faith . We walk by faith the un-seen eternal not after the temporal flesh.

God is not a man .The Son of man, our demonstrated Savior left never to reappear for another outward demonstration of the Son of man working as one with the Father.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

All manner or shades of color of "flesh matter" Jesus took away the division like a plague giving each one equals space 6' to the left, 6' to the right and 6' behind. The number of unconverted mankind 666. Not saying it is the sign . no sign is given.

Pray for peace amongst the nations of different families and families of those nations of our one and same God.

Wrestling against flesh and blood simply shows another kind of god/ the serial murderer from the beginning. "You shall not surely die look at me and live" as in . . . .who needs to walk by the faith of a unseen father? The fool Ssssssss.

We must be careful how we hear.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God's presence in all His forms were gone for the 3 days before Christ arose and again for the approx 10 days from Christ's ascension until the HS arrived. Christ returned in the 66-70 AD time frame and His presence Has been with us ever since.

 

[KJV1611]

God's presence in all His forms were gone for the 3 days before Christ arose and again for the approx 10 days from Christ's ascension until the HS arrived. Christ returned in the 66-70 AD time frame and His presence Has been with us ever since.

The bible says that Jesus is with us always, even UNTO the end of the age.

(Mat 28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus returned from the grave and has never left us since.

 

[Truth7t7]

God's presence in all His forms were gone for the 3 days before Christ arose and again for the approx 10 days from Christ's ascension until the HS arrived. Christ returned in the 66-70 AD time frame and His presence Has been with us ever since.

I disagree, please provide scripture to support your claims, waiting?

 

[PlainWord]

KJV,

PW the resurrection has nothing do with raising these corruptible human bodies.

Oh, I know. Agree 100%.

And now we don't have to go to a temporary holding place, Jesus can snatch us out of this body just prior to death and take us directly to heaven.

Agree 100%

The resurrection of the dead is the raising of the dead in sin and trespass to eternal life in Christ. The Old Testament saints, even though they were in paradise, were still dead in their sins and trespass UNTIL Christ PAID that debt. After that, they could be raised out of Abraham's bosom and taken directly to heaven with Jesus because they were now COVERED by the blood of Jesus.

Agree with most of this but we differ on the timing. While Christ paid the price on the cross, they were still stuck in Hades until He freed them some 40 years later. In Rev 1 He says this, "And I have the keys of Hades and of Death." I take that to mean He hasn't used those keys yet. Earlier in the chapter He said He was coming quickly so I assume He was bringing those keys with Him.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not "bending and twisting"... you are adding the word "FINAL" without grasping that His "JUDGMENT" (which includes His "governance"/"rule"/"reign") SPANS a GREAT LENGTH OF TIME... *including* the 7-yr trib AND the 1000-yr reign. AFTER which, is the GRTj (re: "the dead"). But you are wanting to call that "day" a "singular 24-hr day." It isn't that.

So what I am doing (and which you are not--you are ADDING the word "FINAL" where you think it should go!), what *I* am doing is taking into consideration ALL the [related] passages...

Consider the phrase "the QUICK and the DEAD" that you bring up:

--2Tim4:1

--1Pet4:5

--Acts 10:42 (IN VIEW OF what Acts 17:31 ALSO says re: the word "APPOINTED [G3724] [Judge]"... where 17:31 says, "because He has FIXED [/established] A DAY [not a singular 24-hr day!] IN WHICH He will JUDGE [G2919 (related to G2923 in 10:23!)] the world in righteousness in a Man Whom He hath APPOINTED [G3724--used ALSO in Acts 10:42!!]...")


All of the [multiple] "JUDGMENTS" [including "governance"/"rule"/"reigning"] will SPAN a VERY LONG DURATION of time!

This is what the "IN WHICH" refers to...

... in the same way that the "IN WHICH" of 2Pet3:1-12 is not to be viewed SOLELY in light of Isaiah 34:4 (one verse extracted from its TWO - CHAPTER CONTEXT--read BOTH of these chapters, to ascertain what Peter is referring to by using 34:4! I already posted about the 3x "dissolved" is used, but doesn't mean what *you* are attaching to it. [and the "amill-teachings" attaches to it])

Your claim that the final judgement takes place over hundreds of years is laughable

There is "ONE" future resurrection and final judgement of "ALL", death and hell will deliver up "ONCE", the book of life will be opened up "ONCE", death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire "Once"

The resurrection of "ALL" takes place on the Last Day

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

"ALL" that are in the Graves!

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The last day resurrection and final judgement!

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[KJV1611]

KJV,

PW the resurrection has nothing do with raising these corruptible human bodies.

Oh, I know. Agree 100%.

But the resurrection Josephus speaks of was a bodily resurrection wasn't it? I may be wrong on that.