The Incarnation of God.

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Mattathias

Mattathias

Banned
#21
Jun 6, 2020
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#21
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#23
May 23, 2016
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#23
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#24
May 23, 2016
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#24
Mattathias said:
Offered in support of the article published in NCR,

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-jesus-a-human-person

I believe Roman Catholicism teaches orthodox trinitarianism.

As seen in these articles, Roman Catholicism teaches that Jesus is not a human person.
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I really don't care too much what Roman Catholicism says about Jesus - !!
Belief that Jesus is man like you and I - that means he is a human person - while He is also God at the same time.
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

Banned
#25
Jun 6, 2020
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#25
Chester said:
The National Catholic Register does not define the definition of the orthodox belief in the Trinity.
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NCR didn’t define it. They reported it. (FWIW, I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church that Jesus is not a human person, in agreement with the teaching of Roman Catholicism.)

Orthodox belief in the Trinity believes that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God.
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Orthodox belief in the Trinity believes that Jesus is fully God and fully Man.
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

Banned
#26
Jun 6, 2020
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#26
Chester said:
I really don't care too much what Roman Catholicism says about Jesus - !!
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I reckon you really don’t care too much what The Southern Baptists say about Jesus, either. That’s fine with me.

Belief that Jesus is man like you and I - that means he is a human person - while He is also God at the same time.
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I see Jesus presented in scripture as a human person who has a God.
 
D

DesertWanderer

Active member
#27
Nov 17, 2019
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New Mexico, USA
#27
If I didn't know any better, I might conclude that you have come up against an atheist or two in your lifetime.

Your language is of an apologist fighting against a world view of God, and your gospel account is thoughtful and convincing.

It is great to have you onboard this site, and I look forward to more of our conversations together.

Grace and peace to you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#29
Mar 4, 2020
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#29
He was born of a woman to become the first to rise from the dead.
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Lazarus was the first, but there are two different classes of resurrections apparently. The first was Lazarus and it was the kind of raising from the dead that showed others Jesus is God and to give glory to God, among other miracles.

It was also a foreshadowing of Jesus resurrecting himself. When Jesus resurrected himself it was unto immortality. That's the foreshadowing of the resurrection of the saints all believers will experience at the return of Christ and a core pillar of Christian doctrine.

So yes Jesus was the first to be resurrected unto immortality, but not the first to rise from the dead.
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

Banned
#31
Jun 6, 2020
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#31
Dino246 said:
So what do you make of the cases where Thomas and Paul clearly call Jesus, "God"?
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Thomas went from not seeing God (the Father) in Jesus to seeing God (the Father) in Jesus.

As for Paul, which passage(s) do you have in mind?

Do you think Jesus himself has a God? If so,

a. who and how many persons do you think that is; and
b. do you think there is any God besides his God?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#32
Jun 30, 2015
25,325
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#32
Mattathias said:
Thomas went from not seeing God (the Father) in Jesus to seeing God (the Father) in Jesus.

As for Paul, which passage(s) do you have in mind?

Do you think Jesus himself has a God? If so,

a. who do you think that is; and
b. do you think there is any God besides his God?
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Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." He didn't say anything to indicate that he merely saw the Father in Jesus.

Paul's words... Titus 2:13, among others.
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

Banned
#33
Jun 6, 2020
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#33
Dino246 said:
Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." He didn't say anything to indicate that he merely saw the Father in Jesus.
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Then did he ever?

Are you telling me that you think Thomas went from believing only one person is God to believing two persons are God?

Paul's words... Titus 2:13, among others.
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There are syntax issues with Titus 2:13. Some translations suggest that Paul is calling Jesus “God” and some translations suggest that Paul isn’t calling Jesus “God”. I personally go with the translations which preserve the unitarian belief of Jesus.

Before we go any further, I’d appreciate receiving a response to the questions I asked you in post #31. Otherwise, this is an interrogation, not a conversation.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#34
Jun 30, 2015
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#34
Mattathias said:
Then did he ever?
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I don't understand what you're getting at.

Mattathias said:
Are you telling me that you think Thomas went from believing only one person is God to believing two persons are God?
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No.

Mattathias said:
There are syntax issues with Titus 2:13. Some translations suggest that Paul is calling Jesus “God” and some translations suggest that Paul isn’t calling Jesus “God”. I personally go with the translations which preserve the unitarian belief of Jesus.
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I categorically reject the unitarian view. I believe, and can back up with Scripture, that Jesus is God. Titus 2:13 is merely the most direct case in Paul's writing.

Mattathias said:
Before we go any further, I’d appreciate receiving a response to the questions I asked you in post #31. Otherwise, this is an interrogation, not a conversation.
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Mattathias said:
Do you think Jesus himself has a God? If so,

a. who and how many persons do you think that is; and
b. do you think there is any God besides his God?
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Jesus Himself says, "My Father and your Father, My God and your God".
a. There is one Father.
b. No. There is one God. The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

Banned
#36
Jun 6, 2020
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#36
Dino246 said:
I don't understand what you're getting at.
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John 14:1-11.

No.
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Thomas wasn’t an atheistic or an agnostic. He believed in the same God Jesus does prior to his comment to Jesus in John 20:28. If he didn’t go from believing God is one person to believing that God is two persons (and I agree that he didn’t) then he retained his belief in God being only one person. What then changed?

I categorically reject the unitarian view.
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Then you categorically reject Jesus’ view. His God was, is, and always will be only one person, the Father.

Jesus Himself says, "My Father and your Father, My God and your God".
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So his God and his followers God is only one person, the Father.

a.. There is one Father.
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Yes. And he is only one person.

b. No. There is one God. The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
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I agree that there is no God besides Jesus’ God.

The Father is Jesus’ God.

Jesus is not Jesus’ God.

The Holy Spirit is not Jesus’ God.

I’ll throw in for good measure that the Trinity is not Jesus’ God.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#38
Jun 30, 2015
25,325
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#38
Mattathias said:
John 14:1-11.



Thomas wasn’t an atheistic or an agnostic. He believed in the same God Jesus does prior to his comment to Jesus in John 20:28. If he didn’t go from believing God is one person to believing that God is two persons (and I agree that he didn’t) then he retained his belief in God being only one person. What then changed?



Then you categorically reject Jesus’ view. His God was, is, and always will be only one person, the Father.



So his God and his followers God is only one person, the Father.



Yes. And he is only one person.



I agree that there is no God besides Jesus’ God.

The Father is Jesus’ God.

Jesus is not Jesus’ God.

The Holy Spirit is not Jesus’ God.

I’ll throw in for good measure that the Trinity is not Jesus’ God.
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I'm not going to play semantics with you. I reject your position.
 
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