The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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Jul 23, 2018
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David repented, Josephus didn't

Perhaps you maintain writings of Josephus's
Repentance and salvation before Jesus Christ?

Josephus was a 4 time married adulterous Jewish traitor, who turned against his Jewish people

He was a propaganda priest for Rome and it's emperor's, rewarded with wives and the emperor's wealth.

You quote Josephus as if he was an anointed Apostle of God, sad!
I never quoted him.

You just pulled that from the sky.

Your position is that history is only recorded properly by repentant Holy historians.

I sure dont have time to seek out behavioral purity in historians.
Nor would I invoke that silly bar as a template for an eyewitness.

IOW a homosexaul witnesses a robbery.
We refuse his testimony because you disapprove of his lifestyle.

That is all I am saying.

Your new criteria is a witness must be repentant.

You kidding?

You now say if evidence came that Josephus was repentant your position is reversed?

Huh ?
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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I never quoted him.

You just pulled that from the sky.

Your position is that history is only recorded properly by repentant Holy historians.

I sure dont have time to seek out behavioral purity in historians.
Nor would I invoke that silly bar as a template for an eyewitness.

IOW a homosexaul witnesses a robbery.
We refuse his testimony because you disapprove of his lifestyle.

That is all I am saying.

Your new criteria is a witness must be repentant.

You kidding?

You now say if evidence came that Josephus was repentant your position is reversed?

Huh ?
Apology, I thought I was responding to PlainWord
 
Jul 23, 2018
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As stated, your claim that the ten Virgin parable is a pre-trib rapture?

You have been clearly shown its the second coming, not a pre-trib rapture, because no man knows the day or hour.

You continue to cry that posters twist your claims in response?

It's you who is in denial of the very clear and basic truth, and you run and hide in non response, why :)
Lol
Show me the setting.

Go ahead...show me.

Your personal mess is juvenile .

"You cry"
"Run and hide"

Get busy with some substance.
Those wild punches are 100% beating the air.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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You have been shown "Several Times" that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the second coming and last day resurrection, this isn't a pre-trib rapture as you falsely claim.

"Last Day"

Now you have to bend and twist the scripture to "Change" the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The resurrection of the believer seen above is the "Last Day" not a pre-trib rapture.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day
"Last day" does not void verses.

The 2nd coming at the end of the gt is hands down NOT the rapture.

That is your unprovable position.
Your position fails in the light of my verses.

You are taking a postrib talking point and trying to make it fit.

"Last days" ..."last day" is obviously the last of a set.

If it were a literal "last day" the earth would end

All you have is the last day/days of a set of days.

Ironically you are invoking a dispensation
 
Jul 23, 2018
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For the record (again), and for the readers who may not have been here back when you and I discussed this in the past:

--Jesus is NOT coming to MARRY 10 or 5 VirginS [PLURAL]--these are who [will go] "[/went] in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [aka the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN there (Rev19), like Lk12:36-37,38,40 says "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" ... THEN the meal (G347)]

--THIS "with [G3326]" word being DISTINCT FROM the "WITH [G4862]" word that pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (us) and Christ (re: the MARRIAGE itself)


That's all I wanna type out atm... weary fingers at the present :D
""Jesus is NOT coming to MARRY 10 or 5 VirginS[PLURAL]-""
Correct
He comes for his bride.

The marriage,as the virgin parable Vividly illustrates, is in heaven.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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In rev 14 he comes on a cloud and gathers ripe fruit.

In 1 the 4 he does something similar

After the trib he comes SOLELY to conquer. No rapture after the trib.

No removal after the flood
No removal post sodom

No CONQUORING king at the rapture,the ripe fruit of rev 14,the 144k of rev 14,the one taken of mat 24,the 5 virgins of mat 25,or with lot or Noah.

No horses,no army,no conquoring king,no retaking the land.

All the catching away is pre judgement except rev 14.

There is ZERO examples or instances of post judgement catching away.

The Only Exceptions are exodus (removal into testing,judgement,wandering,and thinning of the heard. Removal and basically cursed)
...and two other ot examples.

There is zero traction for any postrib removal.

The only "sorta deal" that might be more or less remade into a postrib gathering is the end of rev 14 ...a gathering straight to the winepress.


I mean what a slam dunk.

The bible OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORTS a pretrib rapture.
You continue to "Falsely Claim" that Revelation chapter 14 Represents a pre-trib rapture?

Revelation 14 is "The Last Day" resurrection of all that have lived, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:1-2

Revelation 14:1-13 shows a clear picture of the tribulation

Revelation 14:13-16 shows Jesus Christ reaping the earth of the (Dead In Christ) once again "The Last Day" resurrection.

Revelation 14:17-20 shows "Other Angels" one reaps the wicked in the "Second Death" or second resurrection, and yes one of these angels has "Power Over Fire" that is the Last Day Judgement" by fire 2 Peter 3:10-13

Revelation 14:1-20KJV
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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"Last day" does not void verses.

The 2nd coming at the end of the gt is hands down NOT the rapture.

That is your unprovable position.
Your position fails in the light of my verses.

You are taking a postrib talking point and trying to make it fit.

"Last days" ..."last day" is obviously the last of a set.

If it were a literal "last day" the earth would end

All you have is the last day/days of a set of days.

Ironically you are invoking a dispensation
As previously stated, you have changed the word of God regarding "The Last Day", you don't want to see God's truth, because you pre-trib rapture is exposed as false.

"The Last Day, Means Last Day"!

The 7th and last trump is seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 below, when there will be "Time No Longer" on earth, "The Last Day" you don't want to acknowledge this truth either, because your claims of a pre-trib rapture seen in these verses disappears :eek:

Revelation 10:6KJV
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The resurrection of the believer seen above is the "Last Day" not a pre-trib rapture.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
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Lol
Show me the setting.

Go ahead...show me.

Your personal mess is juvenile .

"You cry"
"Run and hide"

Get busy with some substance.
Those wild punches are 100% beating the air.
Your responses are "Void Of Scripture" man's words are "Empty"
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
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""Jesus is NOT coming to MARRY 10 or 5 VirginS[PLURAL]-""
Correct
He comes for his bride.

The marriage,as the virgin parable Vividly illustrates, is in heaven.
No the ten Virgin parable is not a pre-trib rapture as you falsely claim, it states?

(The day and hour no man knows) this is the second coming.

Your claim would have millions raptured, with those left on earth (Knowing The Day And Hour)

Your claims are 100% False
 
Aug 3, 2019
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Yes He did, just as He said He would, to that same generation. The return of Christ's presence (which is what we are talking about) is well recorded historical fact!! He promised He would come back and hold those wicked priests responsible for all the righteous blood they spilled (including His own). He goes on to say, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." We don't have to guess, history records that Titus ordered all surviving priests to be killed, fulfilling Jesus' prophesy. Jesus is speaking to them, not us, when He says, "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” Then when facing the Sanhedrin Jesus says, "Jesus said to him, It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Either He came back to them as He promised or He was wrong. God is NEVER wrong. Maybe the futurists are wrong. Ever stop to think about that possibility?

You need to understand that His presence was to return, not him bodily and recognizable. Why do you think the disciples asked for signs of His parousia (presence)?



Of course they have. Are you just hearing about this now?

First Bowl: Loathsome Sores:
After Jerusalem was surrounded by the army of Titus, pestilential diseases soon made their appearance there, to aggravate the miseries, and deepen the horrors of the siege. They were partly occasioned by the immense multitudes which were crowded together in the city, partly by the putrid effluvia which arose from the unburied dead, and partly from the prevalence of the famine.​
Interestingly, Josephus says that a “pestilential destruction” came upon Jerusalem during the siege of A.D. 70. Thus in fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:27, 35 Judea is afflicted with the sixth plague of Exodus, the plague of boils.

Second Bowl: The Sea Turns to Blood:

The fact that the sea “turned into blood like that of a dead man” suggests that the sea had turned red from the blood of the dead floating on the water’s surface. Describing the slaughter of the people of Joppa by the Mediterranean Sea, Josephus writes, “[T]he sea was bloody a long way, and the maritime parts were full of dead bodies.” The sea of Galilee was also bloodied during this war when many Jews from Taricheae were killed there. Regarding this slaughter Josephus says, “[O]ne might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped.” In describing the tragedy at Taricheae, Josephus echoes the point made in v. 3 that everyone in the sea died.

Third Bowl: The Waters Turn to Blood:

The Jordan River also turned red with blood. Many Jews fleeing from Gadara were cornered by the Romans at the Jordan River. Here a great massacre ensued. Regarding the aftermath, Josephus writes that the “Jordan could not be passed over, by reason of the dead bodies that were in it, but because the lake Asphatitis [the Dead Sea] was also full of dead bodies, that were carried down into it by the river.

Fourth Bowl: Men Are Scorched:

In Deuteronomy 28:22, God threatened to punish the Israelites with scorching heat if they ever turned away from him. Josephus records people being killed by the heat of summer during the war with Rome. During the Jewish War, many Samaritans escaped to the mountain of Gerizzim where they were besieged by the Romans at the base of the mountain. Concerning the fate of these Samaritans, Josephus says the following in Wars of the Jews 3.7.32: “Now it happened that the Samaritans, who were destitute of water, were inflamed with a violent heat (for it was summertime, and the multitude had not provided themselves with necessaries), insomuch that some of them died that very day with heat . . . .” Here one can see the literal fulfillment of Revelation 16:9: “They were seared by the intense heat . . . .” That having been said, there appears to be more to the searing heat of v. 8 than just the heat of the sun.

During the Jewish War, Rome followed a scorched-earth policy. In his history of the Jewish War, Josephus records how the Romans set fire to the cities of Israel and the surrounding suburbs and countryside. The punishing heat of v. 8 might also have been induced and aggravated by the many fires ignited by the Romans throughout the course of the Jewish War. In light of Rome’s scorched earth policy, one can see how the people were truly scorched “with fire” in v. 8.

Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain:

This infliction was aimed at Rome, the kingdom of the Beast. As is the case in Isaiah 13:9-10, Ezekiel 32:7-8 and Amos 8:9, darkness signifies political upheaval and the fall or death of a king. The darkness of Revelation 16:10 is no exception. In A.D. 69, Rome experienced unprecedented strife. This darkness is a perfect metaphor for what may have been Rome’s darkest hour. This chaos began with the death of Nero Caesar. After Nero’s death, Rome collapsed into civil war and is pictured here dying with Nero. The fact that the beast, Nero, and his kingdom, Rome, are “plunged into darkness” is a Biblical metaphor of the beast being cast into the dark underworld of the dead.

Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up:

The Euphrates is again dried up (as it was when the Persians conquered Babylon in 539 BC) to allow the passage of the kings of the east. During the first century, Rome was the center of the known world, hence the saying, “All roads lead to Rome.” To a Roman audience like the seven churches addressed in Revelation the term “kings of the east” implies kings or rulers of Rome’s eastern provinces which were distinct from the rest of the Roman Empire as the eastern provinces worshiped the living emperor. Thus the kings of the east mentioned here appear to be Sohaemus and Antiochus who ruled on the fringes of Rome’s eastern provinces. These kings would also be east of Patmos and Western Turkey, the location of the 7 churches to which John wrote.

King Sohaemus ruled the kingdom of Sophene on the east bank of the Euphrates between Cappadocia and Armenia. Antiochus was the king of Commagene on the west bank of the Euphrates. These kings of the east offered their military and leadership to aid in the defeat of Jerusalem. In addition to the two kings mentioned above, three thousand Roman soldiers drawn from the legions guarding the Euphrates also reinforced Titus’ army on its road to Jerusalem. Thus the fall of Jerusalem, spiritual Babylon, mirrored the fall of ancient, historical Babylon: both cities having been conquered, at least in part, by the crossing of their enemies over the Euphrates.

Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken

Josephus describes an almost supernatural thunderstorm and earthquake that hit Jerusalem simultaneously before the arrival of Titus’ army. Concerning this event Josephus writes:

[F]or there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and anyone would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some grand calamities that were coming​
Revelation 16:19 says that Babylon split into three parts. In A.D. 69, Jewish refugees from the surrounding cities that had been destroyed during Vespasian’s campaign fled to Jerusalem to make their last stand. Shortly after the thunderstorm mentioned above a three-way civil war erupted. The Jewish rebels were split into three factions led by three aspiring Messiahs—John, Simon and Eleazar. Eleazar and his men were stationed in the inner court of the temple. Simon the son of Gioras controlled the upper city and much of the lower. John controlled the rest of Jerusalem. From here John and his men were attacked above and below by their two enemies



I will address this last statement of yours separately since you have a lot to learn and I'm out of space.
While I agree that there is definitely symbolism in prophecy, what you fail to realize is the true prophetic timeline established by Jesus' High Priestly ministry. HIS LOCATION DICTATES WHERE WE ARE IN HISTORY. When Jesus is pictured in the Holy Place, those prophecies begin unfolding in John's day, namely the 7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets. However, when the 7 Last Plagues begin to fall on Earth, Jesus has already moved into the MOST HOLY PLACE, cleansed the Heavenly Sanctuary ("...unto 2,300 days (symbol for 2,300 years), then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"), exited the Sanctuary, and symbolic time prophecy is over. The Old Testament prophets foretold the worldwide, global destruction of the Plagues, including Isaiah 24 and Jeremiah 4 - "And in that day shall the wicked be from one end of the Earth even to the other end of the Earth" and also "Behold the Lord maketh the Earth empty, maketh is waste, turneth it upside down and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof..."

It is silly to insist that every time God mentions a thing affecting the whole Earth, He means just that little speck of real estate in the Middle East.
 
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I would encourage two things: do your own research, and hold lightly to extrabiblical sayings. :)
I would encourage you to do one thing: believe only the Scriptures, such as the ones I posted which plainly teach that the foretold destruction of the 7 Last Plagues is yet future, as is Jesus' Second Coming. I mean, c'mon, the LOUDEST verse in the entire Bible - 1 Thessalonians 4:16 already happened? When? What historic accounts do we have of a celestial shout, voice, and trumpet of God blasting the Earth from its foundation?
 
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Thanks for your honesty, I thought I was seeing 7th Day Adventist (Soul Sleep) and Ellen G. Whites (Investigative Judgement)

I'm fully aware of the history in 7th Day Adventism and Ellen G. Whites teachings.
Please don't fail to rebuke me soundly if I trot out any of EGW's writings to try and support any spiritual proposition. And, in the meantime, remember to heed Paul's council to "despise not prophesyings, prove all things." I gave you quite a few verses that prove there is definitely an Investigative Judgment that takes place on Earth before the 2nd Advent. I could provide more, but it's not necessary, I think.

What most fail to consider is that Jesus is our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary and the key to knowing what He's doing now is to know what the Earthly high priest did in the past. At the end of the ritual year, the "Day of Atonement" cleansing of the Sanctuary was the "time of Judgment" when the people afflicted themselves in self examination while waiting for the high priest to exit the Most Holy Place after cleansing the Sanctuary...and while he did that, God judged who had availed themselves to His mercy and brought a lamb for sacrifice...and who did not. Those who did not were disqualified to remain among the people and were "cut off" from the camp. In the same way, Jesus our High Priest conducts the final phase of His heavenly ministry while God's Judgment takes place.
 
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In rev 14 he comes on a cloud and gathers ripe fruit.

In 1 the 4 he does something similar

After the trib he comes SOLELY to conquer. No rapture after the trib.

No removal after the flood
No removal post sodom

No CONQUORING king at the rapture,the ripe fruit of rev 14,the 144k of rev 14,the one taken of mat 24,the 5 virgins of mat 25,or with lot or Noah.

No horses,no army,no conquoring king,no retaking the land.

All the catching away is pre judgement except rev 14.

There is ZERO examples or instances of post judgement catching away.

The Only Exceptions are exodus (removal into testing,judgement,wandering,and thinning of the heard. Removal and basically cursed)
...and two other ot examples.

There is zero traction for any postrib removal.

The only "sorta deal" that might be more or less remade into a postrib gathering is the end of rev 14 ...a gathering straight to the winepress.


I mean what a slam dunk.
The bible OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORTS a pretrib rapture.
The Bible overwhelmingly supports a simultaneous rapture/second coming. Most people understand that the "thief in the night" return of Jesus is the rapture, right?

Do you accept that the "thief in the night" return of Jesus is the rapture?

Well, 2Peter 3:10-12 says when Jesus comes as a thief, the Earth is going to pretty much implode. Not gonna be any 7 years of anything after that, plain and simple.
 
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The covenant Jew comes in last. Rev 14 is the jewish gathering close to the end of the gt.

The gentile bride is taken first.
Then "Jacob's trouble" ...the focus of the gt is a line in the sand for the jew.

Jacob's trouble. A terrible time.
But it is for the jewish gathering.
"There is no Jew nor Greek..." We are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
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The Bible overwhelmingly supports a simultaneous rapture/second coming. Most people understand that the "thief in the night" return of Jesus is the rapture, right?

Do you accept that the "thief in the night" return of Jesus is the rapture?

Well, 2Peter 3:10-12 says when Jesus comes as a thief, the Earth is going to pretty much implode. Not gonna be any 7 years of anything after that, plain and simple.
The bible OVERWHELMINGLY supports the rapture as separate from the second coming at the end of the gt.

You guys that force fit both events into one must skip over or reframe the gathering of rev 14.
 
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No the ten Virgin parable is not a pre-trib rapture as you falsely claim, it states?

(The day and hour no man knows) this is the second coming.

Your claim would have millions raptured, with those left on earth (Knowing The Day And Hour)

Your claims are 100% False
What specifically is false?

Show me.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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As previously stated, you have changed the word of God regarding "The Last Day", you don't want to see God's truth, because you pre-trib rapture is exposed as false.

"The Last Day, Means Last Day"!

The 7th and last trump is seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 below, when there will be "Time No Longer" on earth, "The Last Day" you don't want to acknowledge this truth either, because your claims of a pre-trib rapture seen in these verses disappears :eek:

Revelation 10:6KJV
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The resurrection of the believer seen above is the "Last Day" not a pre-trib rapture.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day
I see last day just fine.
I have no problem with it.

I also see the pretrib rapture verses that you skip.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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You continue to "Falsely Claim" that Revelation chapter 14 Represents a pre-trib rapture?

Revelation 14 is "The Last Day" resurrection of all that have lived, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:1-2

Revelation 14:1-13 shows a clear picture of the tribulation

Revelation 14:13-16 shows Jesus Christ reaping the earth of the (Dead In Christ) once again "The Last Day" resurrection.

Revelation 14:17-20 shows "Other Angels" one reaps the wicked in the "Second Death" or second resurrection, and yes one of these angels has "Power Over Fire" that is the Last Day Judgement" by fire 2 Peter 3:10-13

Revelation 14:1-20KJV
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
I have never said rev 14 represents the pretrib rapture