Will any futurist acknowledge that the presence of God accompanied the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And in each instance of these great slaughters at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., that the Lord used an invading foreign army? Will any FUTURIST find the courage to admit these truths about those 4 places as told in the OT? Obviously I'm setting a trap, full disclosure.
Here's some old posts I've put, on the Subject (plz forgive the C&P from my old posts... this will save me from much typing this morning, before I've had my crack of the dawn, lol...
[
quoting old posts... this may take up a few posts, we'll see... plz excuse any repetitiveness, as these are taken from several of my old posts]
… so "the
TIMES of the Gentiles" does
not refer to what is commonly called "the church age" (it has nothing to do with that); but instead refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: Neb's dream/statue/image, and Neb as "head of gold") [...and distinct from the phrase "the
FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]"]
"the
TIMES of the Gentiles" ENDS at the end of the [future] trib (Lk21:24b / Rev11:2), when Daniel 2:34-35 takes place.
_____
[quoting Gaebelein, on Daniel 2]
"The great man image is the prophetic symbol of the “times of the Gentiles.” This expression “The times of the Gentiles” is not found in the book of Daniel, but it is a New Testament phrase. Our Lord used it exclusively. In that part of His prophetic discourse which is reported in the Gospel of Luke and which relates to the fall of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the nation, our Lord said: “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled” Luke 21:24. Now, the times of the Gentiles did not begin when Jerusalem rejected the Lord from heaven. Our Lord does not say that the times of the Gentiles were then ushered in. The times of the Gentiles started with the Babylonian captivity by Nebuchadnezzar. The glory of the Lord departed from Jerusalem. The other great prophet of the captivity, Ezekiel, beheld the departure of the Shekinah. […]"
[AND... still quoting further]
"Historical Events ([chpts] 3-6)
The four chapters [chpt 3-6] which follow the great dream of Nebuchadnezzar are of a historical character. They do not contain direct prophecies, but record certain events which transpired during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, his successor and grandson Belshazzar, and Darius, the Mede. [...]
[...]
"These four chapters then give us historical events. Each has a prophetic meaning, though direct prophecy is not found in them.
"These chapters describe the moral conditions which held sway during the two first world empires; they indicate prophetically the moral conditions which continue to the end of the times of the Gentiles. Five things may be traced in these four chapters: The moral characteristics of the times of the Gentiles; what will happen at the close of these times; the faithful remnant in suffering; their deliverance and the Gentiles acknowledging God, as King and the God of heaven."
[end quoting; bold and underline mine, bracketed inserts mine]
____________
[quoting my old post]
First off, let me just clarify that I believe the phrase "
great tribulation [or, 'the great tribulation']" refers ONLY to the second half of the future 7-yrs... and that His "wrath" starts
well before that point, in the chronology. But that's not the main point I came on here to say...
Here's how I am seeing the various aspects of
"WRATH" (I only have time to quote partial passages here, presently... plus, the post will be long enough already, and few read lengthy material anyway
) -
"wrath" (pertaining to 70ad, and
how He used their "enemies" in the events of same):
--Luke 21:23,20 (in the 70ad section of the Olivet Discourse) "and
WRATH upon this people"... "
when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies"
--Matthew 22:7 (
in the 70ad part of the SEQUENCE) "the king
WAS WROTH:
and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." [
v.8 then goes on to tell of the "further revelation" that took place in the LATER 95ad writings of "[The] Revelation," where 1:1 correlates with 4:1/1:19c (7:3), the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, the part that refers to the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (i.e. describing the far-future 70th-Wk/7-yrs which lead UP TO His Second Coming
to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied
EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)]
--Luke 19:41-44, esp. v43 (Jesus, to Jerusalem, on Palm Sunday [the very day that the "62 Wks" was fulfilled (7 and then the 62 [69 Weeks total])], just before His death later that same week)
"thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round,... And shall lay thee even with the ground... because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."
As for the "far-future" aspect of
"wrath," I see this:
--"for God has not appointed US ['the Church which is His body'] to WRATH..." (1Th5:9-10, in the context of the 1Th5:
2-3 passage I'm always pointing out with its parallels [Matt24:
4/Mk13:
5; 2Th2:
7b-8a; 2Th2:
9a/Dan9:
27a[26];
i.e. SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yrs [i.e. the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period]); and... "the one delivering US out from the WRATH coming" 1Th1:10 (an
eschatological "wrath"--taking place "
on the earth")
--and
how the wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a ( ^ ) is very similar to that of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in the context of "WRATH" words and "judgments" on Israel [i.e. how He operates]), where it [2Th2:7-8] says, "the one restraining at present,
will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be],
AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..." and Lam2:3-4 says (in very similar language), "...
he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [effectively saying (to their enemy)
'HAVE AT IT!'/'go ahead, sic 'em!'], and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."
--the "whose COMING" v.9a and the v.8a "be revealed" of the "man of sin" is at the START of the 7-yrs, equivalent to the INITIAL "birth PANG [
SINGULAR (1Th5:
2-3); Matt24:
4/Mk13:
5 G5100 -
tis - '
A CERTAIN ONE']"
i.e. SEAL #1 rider of the white horse with a "bow" (often representing "deception"), parallel with Dan9:27a[26 - "prince
THAT SHALL COME"... and "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"]--so this in 2Th2:8a and 9a is at the START of the 7-yrs, not at its MIDDLE, and not at its END; 2Th2:3-9a is covering ALL 7 yrs (in its THREE PARTS: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END),
just as Dan9:27[26] is: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END [7-yrs total]
I believe the "wrath" STARTS when Jesus will "
STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13 / Rev4-5), when He Himself opens the FIRST SEAL at the START of the 7-yr period (the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period spoken of in Rev1:
1[4:1/1:19c(7:3)] and Lk18:
8[/17:26-37] and also Rom16:
20 (<--but
this verse referring to US, "the Church which is His body," doing the 1Cor6:3[14] thing in/from
a distinct location from where the other two passages' contexts will unfold/play out "on the earth"--one of the
reasons for our "Rapture/Departure" [IN THE AIR])
__________
My main point being, to show (via scriptural precedent) how HE USES their "enemies" in His exercise of His "WRATH," like as a MEANS of it (IOW, the START of the 70th-Wk/7-yrs and His opening of the SEALS [Seal #1 being the equivalent of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 -
tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'," aka "the man of sin be revealed" (at the START of those yrs), aka the "whose COMING" 2Th2:9a / 2Th2:8a (Dan9:27a[26]--"that SHALL COME"/"for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"), and
not that His "wrath" comes as a RESULT (or ENDING-point) of other mens' [enemies'] tribulation thrust upon them (though surely this is also involved)... I'm just saying, the
"WRATH" STARTS when Jesus will "
STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13 / Rev4-5), not
way later in the chronology (like at the
end of those specific yrs and as merely a
result of [or
reaction towards] others' doings within those yrs. No.)
[continues in next post]
