Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot
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I challenged Calvinism teachers here twice on the false dichotomy with Arminianism (both being Scripturally wrong, man's self will and God's will cannot exclude one another, since the Bible speaks of both they apparently work together in a mysterious way) and still get no reply from its teachers, yet they continue in other posts. By doing this they admit to being dishonest and not rightfully diving the Word. What reward do they hope to get out of it? Just stubbornly sticking to a teaching that doesn't pass the most basic criterion for a good teaching - not contradicting other parts of the Bible.
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I made all kinds of great decisions. The first one was reading the bible over and over from cover to cover. The second one was trying to do what Jesus commanded. The third one was asking the Lord for His Help when I found out I could not do the things He Commanded. All my prayers were perfectly aligned with the Will of God and attaining Salvation.
I was amazing. Or, I should say, the Lord and I were amazing...
And that was when I found out that it was the Lord that was leading me the whole time and not my "genius" and great decisions.
I was amazing. Or, I should say, the Lord and I were amazing...
And that was when I found out that it was the Lord that was leading me the whole time and not my "genius" and great decisions.
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The thing about Calvinism is that it is close in all of its doctrine but takes them a step beyond.
The sad condition of man in his natural state of being blind and naked and doomed to die for sin is taken a step further to say that man is even unable to respond to a gospel message without first being regenerated.
The fact that in some manner God chooses those who are saved is twisted into God arbitrarily saving some and creating some for no reason besides condemning them.
The fact that some will not find salvation becomes a matter of design rather than being a consequence of their own choice.
The power of the grace of God to draw sinners and entice them becomes a sort of compulsion where their own desires are immaterial since God will simply make them desire things.
Perseverance of the saints is ok other than being built on the faulty premises that precede it.
Altogether it adds up to a perversion of grace that reduces human beings to objects rather than subjects of God's love.
The sad condition of man in his natural state of being blind and naked and doomed to die for sin is taken a step further to say that man is even unable to respond to a gospel message without first being regenerated.
The fact that in some manner God chooses those who are saved is twisted into God arbitrarily saving some and creating some for no reason besides condemning them.
The fact that some will not find salvation becomes a matter of design rather than being a consequence of their own choice.
The power of the grace of God to draw sinners and entice them becomes a sort of compulsion where their own desires are immaterial since God will simply make them desire things.
Perseverance of the saints is ok other than being built on the faulty premises that precede it.
Altogether it adds up to a perversion of grace that reduces human beings to objects rather than subjects of God's love.
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Me too.
If it wasn't lust it was coveting. If it wasn't coveting it was definitely pride.
We just go about explaining Gods Act of Salvation differently. We try to do it in a biblical way, but in the end it is still just a description of Gods Work in our lives.
That's why I usually don't get upset with these conversations. Everyone looks at things differently.
I've taken the "safe" route and place ALL the credit of Salvation right at Gods Feet.
If it wasn't lust it was coveting. If it wasn't coveting it was definitely pride.
We just go about explaining Gods Act of Salvation differently. We try to do it in a biblical way, but in the end it is still just a description of Gods Work in our lives.
That's why I usually don't get upset with these conversations. Everyone looks at things differently.
I've taken the "safe" route and place ALL the credit of Salvation right at Gods Feet.
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People have no ability to save themselves, agreed. But people do have choice, otherwise many Scriptures simply make no sense. The notion of God's sovereignty in itself isn't wrong; Calvinism is wrong by ignoring the Scriptures that speak about choice and creating contradiction.
If we choose either, make man either a puppet of sovereign God's will (Calvinism), or completely autonomous from God's will (Arminianism), then we make the Bible argue against itself.
When we display righteousness that's of course thanks to God. But can we say the same for sin? Why would God repeat the phrase "(but) ye would not" 10 times in the Bible? According to Calvinism, that would mean that God forgot that He created them spiritually deaf, and then kept trying to speak to them in vain. Also, "choose ye this day whom ye shall serve"... And so forth.
If we choose either, make man either a puppet of sovereign God's will (Calvinism), or completely autonomous from God's will (Arminianism), then we make the Bible argue against itself.
When we display righteousness that's of course thanks to God. But can we say the same for sin? Why would God repeat the phrase "(but) ye would not" 10 times in the Bible? According to Calvinism, that would mean that God forgot that He created them spiritually deaf, and then kept trying to speak to them in vain. Also, "choose ye this day whom ye shall serve"... And so forth.
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In the Old Testament did Israel choose to be Israel?
Did Egypt choose to be Egypt?
Was Egypt holding the Hebrews as slaves a matter of design or was it a consequence of their own choice?
Depends on how you look at it, I suppose.
After being saved I have a completely different outlook on just about everything. I am more surprised than anything else when I find other people agreeing with me. I find myself, more and more, being a stranger in a strange land, with a unique outlook on most things.
Did Egypt choose to be Egypt?
Was Egypt holding the Hebrews as slaves a matter of design or was it a consequence of their own choice?
Depends on how you look at it, I suppose.
After being saved I have a completely different outlook on just about everything. I am more surprised than anything else when I find other people agreeing with me. I find myself, more and more, being a stranger in a strange land, with a unique outlook on most things.
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The first act Israel did as a nation was to put blood on their doorsteps marking themselves off voluntarily in Exodus 12. So yeah, they chose to embrace the faith of their fathers.
Given that Israel was a mixed multitude when it set out into the wilderness, individual Egyptians had the choice to place their trust in the God of Israel and to join with the passover through circumcision. Again, they had a choice.
The last one doesn't speak to the charge I leveled at Calvinism. The issue is not that God makes plans and sets things in motion, but that Calvinism paints the picture as if God's sole purpose in creating some is to torture them for all eternity because somehow Calvinists think torturing people gives God glory.
While our outlooks are different, I find myself in the same situation. The biggest issue with Calvinism is it attempts to break a tension that seems to be intentionally in the Bible, the tension between God's sovereignty and man's freedom. Calvin and those aligned with him since choose to place God's sovereignty as absolute without considering He may choose to limit that sovereignty to allow for men to be fully men and not merely puppets.
Given that Israel was a mixed multitude when it set out into the wilderness, individual Egyptians had the choice to place their trust in the God of Israel and to join with the passover through circumcision. Again, they had a choice.
The last one doesn't speak to the charge I leveled at Calvinism. The issue is not that God makes plans and sets things in motion, but that Calvinism paints the picture as if God's sole purpose in creating some is to torture them for all eternity because somehow Calvinists think torturing people gives God glory.
While our outlooks are different, I find myself in the same situation. The biggest issue with Calvinism is it attempts to break a tension that seems to be intentionally in the Bible, the tension between God's sovereignty and man's freedom. Calvin and those aligned with him since choose to place God's sovereignty as absolute without considering He may choose to limit that sovereignty to allow for men to be fully men and not merely puppets.
This is just my opinion, but I really believe it's both.
There are things we simply can't perceive from our human perspective, and that makes us think it must be either-or. But I believe this type of contradiction in the Bible is always an appearance because of our limited perspective.
There are things we simply can't perceive from our human perspective, and that makes us think it must be either-or. But I believe this type of contradiction in the Bible is always an appearance because of our limited perspective.
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I wonder about this as well.
How much is Gods pre-determination and how much is God just operating off the few choices that people will make.
Like those books we used to read in elementary school. If you choose this then go to page 33. If that then go to page 53. The book is already written. But your choices change the story. And God influences some (or more) of those choices.
How much is Gods pre-determination and how much is God just operating off the few choices that people will make.
Like those books we used to read in elementary school. If you choose this then go to page 33. If that then go to page 53. The book is already written. But your choices change the story. And God influences some (or more) of those choices.
I am thinking more along the lines of 100% choice and 100% God's will at the same time (like Jesus being 100% God and 100% man).
But I am refraining from making any of my thoughts about it into a teaching. I believe it's hard to definitely support from the Bible any theory about how these things work together. We are told is that we are saved by God's will drawing us and God prepared the good works for the elect, but also God continually tells people to choose Him, to serve Him, to repent and get born again so they don't perish, and so forth. I stick to both of these as revealed pieces of the big picture that we don't yet see.
But I am refraining from making any of my thoughts about it into a teaching. I believe it's hard to definitely support from the Bible any theory about how these things work together. We are told is that we are saved by God's will drawing us and God prepared the good works for the elect, but also God continually tells people to choose Him, to serve Him, to repent and get born again so they don't perish, and so forth. I stick to both of these as revealed pieces of the big picture that we don't yet see.
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But many believe this as a Calvinist writer states...
“The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.”
Wayne Grundem
Sounds like works to me.
“The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.”
Wayne Grundem
Sounds like works to me.
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