LET THE WOMAN LEARN IN SILENCE - WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS MEANS?

[MyrtleTrees]

Myrtle,
Your husband must be pretty awesome. I'm sure he is a very high tier man in order to snag a woman like you. I'm not kidding. Keep on honoring God and him through your actions.

Nothing is worse than an endlessly yapping woman. So tiresome. Be different. Follow that narrow path.

Thanks for your compliment and recommendation!

 

[MyrtleTrees]

It's always a good idea to look at all the relevant Scripture verses on a subject, and not draw conclusions on one or two, especially when they are not considered within their contexts.

There is a lot of cultural context that is relevant to understanding Paul's words to Timothy. There is also a lot of biblical context to the subject of male and female roles. There is a place for respecting the practice in the local congregation, whether you agree with that particular interpretation or not. There's no need to rock the boat, but there is also no need to subscribe to an unspoken expectation; especially one where people would try to silence you with it. Many people take the plaint text out of its context, and don't want to put the effort in to research the matter to understand it thoroughly. Sadly, too often such people try to force their views on others.

In Genesis 3:16, God speaks to Eve and says, "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Many people interpret this as, "It is right for men to rule over women", but that is not what it says. In fact, in many cases, men ruling over women is a fulfillment of this unfortunate consequence.

To your question specifically, men do speak in the church I attend, as do women, so perhaps it's merely a question of one's subculture.

Thanks for your views on the subject!

 

[MyrtleTrees]

But it does not say "women were not to be allowed to preach publicly in the churches" in verse 12 so how could it be clear? You would have to be told by someone that is what Paul intended to say. But did he?

To interpret 2 Tim 2 it is very helpful to read 1 Pet 3. Very Helpful is an understatement.

1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Now compare with 2 Tim 2 and notice the strikingly similar wording. As if Peter was quoting Paul.

1 Tim 2:9-12 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I believe that using the rule of theological context in interpretation we have a strong case to say that Paul was talking about the same thing that Peter was talking about especially when Paul does mention the Adam and Eve scenarios confirming that this is about a wife toward her husband. It has nothing to do with banning women from preaching. AND IT IS NOT CLEAR AT ALL THAT IS WHAT PAUL MEANT. That is eisegesis, (reading into the text what is not there) rather than exegesis (understanding the authors intended meaning)

It is IMPOSSIBLE that Paul's authorial intent was to ban women from PULPIT ministry Because the PULPIT had not been invented yet and this would not have entered his mind. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for his readers to have had that concept either. eisegesis has caused people to put words in Paul's mouth (like publically in the church, pulpit, preach the Bible) and ideas in his head that he did not write and could not have known to write (pulpit, Sunday School, etc) We have no authority to apply modern church assembly concepts to what was happening at the church of Ephesus at the time of Paul.

Peter was more verbose but it is obvious they were talking about the same things. The wife toward the husband, the attitude of the woman toward the man (Paul's use of Adam and Even confirm that he was talking about that relationship not pulpit preaching) It is not godly for the woman to Correct/Teach, or rule over the man and especially in public is it shameful to see that happen. It is embarrassing to the man for the woman to Teach/correct/scold him. She should be respectful, give him honor, hold her peace, if she is really concerned about something, ask him at home not in public, causing contention, and making a scene as it were. Especially in the church if there are other believers around who might side with her opinion over the husbands and cause divisions. 1 Cor 14 is another example telling them to be silent and ask their husbands their questions at home because they were being out of order asking in a disruptive way. He also told those who spoke in tongues (male and female) to be silent if there were no interpreter, and he told those who prophesied (male or female) to be silent in the church if someone else had a word to share and take turns. The phrase be silent has been taken beyond what Paul intended and strange doctrines banning women from preaching the word of God We know it is Gods plan to empower women to prophesy (that is using their words) They are called to proclaim the Word of God in the church, out of the church, on top of the church, under the church, and everywhere else.
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Thanks for your views on the subject! Not all will understand this subject the same, no doubt. But as always, all must prayerfully and sincerely do their best to interpret all scriptures as accurately as they possibly can. And God honors that attitude of the heart.

 

[lenna]

Nothing is worse than an endlessly yapping woman

unless it's a person like you making comments like that.

 

[Chester]

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS MEANS?

another thread for pugilists, misogynists, misinterpretation and all around bad feelings.

Because of course this has never ever been argued discussed before in this forum

I think you misunderstand the intent of the OP: would it not be better to just discuss the Scriptures in a gentle manner, rather than throwing such terms around? One does not have to agree, and the "bad feelings" were not begun by the OP here . . .

 

[Chester]

It is clear in verse 12, that women were not to be allowed to preach publicly, in churches. But it is less clear what verse 11 means, as to the order for women to learn in silence in church. So since the Bible is not clear on that subject, I think women have to prayerfully decide that for themselves.
1 Tim 2:11-12
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
KJV
We have recently started to attend a Mennonite church in town here. I like the church a lot. I admire and enjoy how so many men are willing to preach in the meetings. This is not true in most other churches. I have chosen not to even answer Bible questions that are asked by some of the preachers there, as I'm afraid it would offend some men there or intimidate them. My own dad (now with the Lord in heaven) said he believed women should not talk at all in Bible meetings or church meetings. I also learned from a man (Jerry) that attends the Mennonite church - that he doesn't believe women should speak in church meetings. So I gather that a number of men feel that way.
I am curious to know others' opinions of why it may be that men speak so little in most other churches. What do you think? Do you think it's because in our society - culture - women are largely often overly controlling over men (or insubmissive) , such as their own husbands?
I know their men are taught to preach a lot more commonly in their youth, compared to in Christian families that attend most other churches. I like that, and can imagine that is one reason this Mennonite church has so many men who like to teach and preach.
Also, I notice in the visiting time that takes place outdoors after Sunday AM church services - that the men show a lot more enjoyment for talking together (and discussing spiritual things too with others), as compared to what I see in other churches. They aren't in a hurry to rush home. The women too - of course, enjoy visiting together, too during that time - more than I see in other churches.

Unfortunately, too many men are passive and are all too happy to let women do the "spiritual" talking. I am glad you have found a group where the men step forward.

 

[notuptome]

As I have stated in many other similar threads Paul saying that "I do not permit' is not the same as God saying that He does not permit. It was Paul's opinion that women should keep quiet in church and not God's.

Tell me how many women spoke inside the tabernacle or the temple? How many women were permitted to speak in the Jewish assemblies? This stems from Jewish traditions in the worship of the Lord God. The priests who served in the temple were men not women. Women served outside the temple.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[lenna]

I think you misunderstand the intent of the OP: would it not be better to just discuss the Scriptures in a gentle manner, rather than throwing such terms around? One does not have to agree, and the "bad feelings" were not begun by the OP here . . .

well that's a little smug don't you think? why don't you offer your opinions to others who do not care for this type of thread that isolates women and appeals to the vanity of men as though God thought nothing of women? There are quite a few so that should give you something to do today

the intent of the op may have been one thing, but the posts from certain males here, indicate an attitude that is intolerable and do not represent scripture but rather the arrogance of some men

why don't you ask surfer why he made such a nasty comment? this thread is the same as all the others that went before it.

as it is, my initial post was obviously meant to be funny, in a sarcastic way.

bizarre how you ignore all the other posts and think I need to hear from you

 

[Dino246]

Tell me how many women spoke inside the tabernacle or the temple? How many women were permitted to speak in the Jewish assemblies? This stems from Jewish traditions in the worship of the Lord God. The priests who served in the temple were men not women. Women served outside the temple.

Jewish traditions are not God's word, and Anna trumps all but one of your assertions.

 

[SoulWeaver]

unless it's a person like you making comments like that.

Exactly what I thought when I read that. Quite unloving to other new born creatures in Christ, from people who claim men should be leaders and therefore they should be our examples then.

It's the most absurd thing, actually bizarre, how some men like to insert themselves between a man and his wife. If they think women are lesser creatures, you'd think they'd at least honor the husband who has the authority in that house (as they preach), and keep silent for the sake of his honor, but they try to supercede his authority in his house. Also taking upon themselves to act in pastor role when overseers they are not, in meddlesome attempts to insert themselves between a man and his wife and lord over wives of OTHER men and also girls who are not even married and in care of their fathers. Or elder widows who serve God and are under Christ's authority not their dad's. These people want to insert themselves everywhere and run the rodeo. I think it's really bizarre.

 

[lenna]

Exactly what I thought when I read that. Quite unloving to other new born creatures in Christ, from people who claim men should be leaders and therefore they should be our examples then.

It's the most absurd thing, actually bizarre, how some men like to insert themselves between a man and his wife. If they think women are lesser creatures, you'd think they'd at least honor the husband who has the authority in that house (as they preach), and keep silent for the sake of his honor, but they try to supercede his authority in his house. Also taking upon themselves to act in pastor role when overseers they are not, in meddlesome attempts to insert themselves between a man and his wife and lord over wives of OTHER men and also girls who are not even married and in care of their fathers. Or elder widows who serve God and are under Christ's authority not their dad's. These people want to insert themselves everywhere and run the rodeo. I think it's really bizarre.

I honestly think that it is a particular personality 'type' rather than a desire to adhere to God's instructions.

There are many other 'instructions' these types do NOT adhere to that influence my thoughts regarding this type of thread. In their own eyes they are holy men and only want to use the Bible for instruction.

And that, is the key right there. They USE the Bible to try to disguise the desires they already have. Plain as day.

 

[garee]

Tell me how many women spoke inside the tabernacle or the temple? How many women were permitted to speak in the Jewish assemblies? This stems from Jewish traditions in the worship of the Lord God. The priests who served in the temple were men not women. Women served outside the temple.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Exactly the woman being silent in the church was because of the new order or ceremonial law .They were allowed to be a part of the new ceremony. Men woman and children alike. The promise of Joel,


Some female prophets got a little excited and over zealous and were making the ceremony one sided . Full of Deborah's the last of the woman prophet as apostles before the Jews had Kings in Israel the period of Judges. The time of reformation had come. Restoring the the order to the judges. No outward representation

In that way the gospel is not about tribes or nations, men or woman, but is about two walking together in agreement with one, Christ. . . the husband.

 

[Blik]

As long as people insist that Paul is speaking to us in our world as it is today and not the to people he is writing to, there will be no understanding of Paul.

It is very important for us to understand Paul, for his voice is the same as the Lord's voice. It seems these people, intent on misunderstanding Paul, is misunderstanding the Lord for Paul is the voice of the Lord. So determining, here, what Paul meant for all people at all times should know is not just a silly argument.

 

[Blain]

It is clear in verse 12, that women were not to be allowed to preach publicly, in churches. But it is less clear what verse 11 means, as to the order for women to learn in silence in church. So since the Bible is not clear on that subject, I think women have to prayerfully decide that for themselves.
1 Tim 2:11-12
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
KJV
We have recently started to attend a Mennonite church in town here. I like the church a lot. I admire and enjoy how so many men are willing to preach in the meetings. This is not true in most other churches. I have chosen not to even answer Bible questions that are asked by some of the preachers there, as I'm afraid it would offend some men there or intimidate them. My own dad (now with the Lord in heaven) said he believed women should not talk at all in Bible meetings or church meetings. I also learned from a man (Jerry) that attends the Mennonite church - that he doesn't believe women should speak in church meetings. So I gather that a number of men feel that way.
I am curious to know others' opinions of why it may be that men speak so little in most other churches. What do you think? Do you think it's because in our society - culture - women are largely often overly controlling over men (or insubmissive) , such as their own husbands?
I know their men are taught to preach a lot more commonly in their youth, compared to in Christian families that attend most other churches. I like that, and can imagine that is one reason this Mennonite church has so many men who like to teach and preach.
Also, I notice in the visiting time that takes place outdoors after Sunday AM church services - that the men show a lot more enjoyment for talking together (and discussing spiritual things too with others), as compared to what I see in other churches. They aren't in a hurry to rush home. The women too - of course, enjoy visiting together, too during that time - more than I see in other churches.

Honestly I think regardless if you are a man or women learning in silence is something that is wise to practice. I think it is true that our cultrue has sort of flipped the roles to a point, I mean in every movie I see with a wife and husband most of the time it's the husband who is at fault or the bad one in the relationship, same thing with dads, in most movies do you see a bad father more than a bad mother?

Who is the one in the relationship that tends to wear the pants? who is the one who has the drinking problem the lack of motivation the one who is scared of the other as if your about to really have it because you know your in trouble?

But while I do think the culture has greatly influenced things it has nothing to do with how God has set things. Personally it my belief God will use who he chooses to use if men will not step up to the plate then he will use women. God is not racist he does not choose favorites and he is not sexist he uses the willing

 

[tourist]

Tell me how many women spoke inside the tabernacle or the temple? How many women were permitted to speak in the Jewish assemblies? This stems from Jewish traditions in the worship of the Lord God. The priests who served in the temple were men not women. Women served outside the temple.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This tradition probably had a huge impact in saying that he doe not permit a woman to speak in church. Jewish assemblies are steeped in tradition and strict adherence to Mosaic law. A gentile church assembly is another thing altogether.

 

[tourist]

The verse at hand is concerning the body of Christ. Do you not agree with God?

I agree with God but the thing is I don't always agree with you. That's OK though because you don't always agree with me either. Let's go forward in peace now brother.

 

[Duskey]

I have a crush on a mute woman but she never tells me how she feels. 🤔

 

[tourist]

I have a crush on a mute woman but she never tells me how she feels. 🤔

It may help somewhat if you would learn sign language. Hopefully, she won't give you the finger. That's never a good sign in any language.

 

[Duskey]

It may help somewhat if you would learn sign language. Hopefully, she won't give you the finger. That's never a good sign in any language.

😆😆😆

 

[Nehemiah6]

This tradition probably had a huge impact in saying that he doe not permit a woman to speak in church. Jewish assemblies are steeped in tradition and strict adherence to Mosaic law. A gentile church assembly is another thing altogether.

Sorry, but that is not really true in view of divine revelation.

1. Paul was writing to the churches -- Jews and Gentiles together.

2. Paul had already given up all Pharisaical and traditionalist ideas.

3. Paul was writing by divine inspiration, and indeed Christ has taught Paul personally.

4. Paul referred to "the Law" as his authority (1 Cor 14:34). This would take us back to Eve allowing herself to be deceived, as well as God's subsequent directive to Eve (and through Eve to all women). While the direct application was to husbands and wives, the indirect application was to women within the home and the church.

Also, the only way that Peter could have known what Sarah said to Abraham is through divine revelation. So when you add up all the Scriptures, then Jewish tradition HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this matter. It is all about divine revelation -- which may not be disregarded.