Lucifer, that great anointed cherub, how art thou fallen from heaven (Is 14:12)? Lucifer was quite familiar with the throne of God and the goings on in heaven, until iniquity was found in him (Ez 28:15) and he betrayed the throne of God. He spent some time getting to know what God was like and got so familiar with Him that he got the notion that he would ascend his throne above the stars of God and be like the Most High, convincing one-third of the host of heaven that he could do it. How very noble of Lucifer wanting to be like the Most High. God had enough of that and cast him out of heaven. God had a special place of everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his cohort angels (Mt 25:41). Don't forget what Jesus told the Pharisees in (John 8:44) and when referring to Judas, He called him 'a devil' (John 6:70).
Was Judas saved?
- Thread starter Tara
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
Likewise, as Lucifer was a former great angel in God's kingdom, but fell from his position. That doesn't mean satan wasn't a real angel in the first place c.f. "Judas wasn't a real christian in the first place".
It's true Jesus called him a devil. When Jesus said this, it was fairly late in Jesus's ministry. If we see the next verse:
Joh 6:71 But he spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon; for it was he who was about to betray Him, being one of the Twelve.
When Jesus said this, Judas was at the point of about to betraying Him. So satan had probably already entered into Judas at that point (Luke 22:3) But was Judas always a devil ever since being first chosen by Christ? I don't think scripture ever says that.
It's true Jesus called him a devil. When Jesus said this, it was fairly late in Jesus's ministry. If we see the next verse:
Joh 6:71 But he spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon; for it was he who was about to betray Him, being one of the Twelve.
When Jesus said this, Judas was at the point of about to betraying Him. So satan had probably already entered into Judas at that point (Luke 22:3) But was Judas always a devil ever since being first chosen by Christ? I don't think scripture ever says that.
B
Just wanting to keep you in mind of your OP that it was not about Judas being numbered with the disciples or Judas having power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease from Matthew 10th chapter... this was about salvation.
Now Jesus prophesied that He had to go away in order for the promise of the permanancy of the indwelling Holy Spirit to be fulfilled in John 14th chapter. Due note He gave the Holy Spirit again in John 20th chapter in verse 22, but yet again, He told them to wait afterwards because it was not permanent yet which did become permanent at the day of Pentecost to fulfill the promise of the Comforter while Jesus was away.
Anyway... the purpose of being saved.. of being sealed as His did not occur until He went to stand beside the right hand of God the Father to build a place for us so that He may come and receive us unto Himself as promised in John 14th chapter.
So none of the disciples were "officially" sealed as His until that day of Pentecost.
Thus.. Judas was never sealed as His to be saved as His.
Now some may try to use Judas as an excuse for non OSAS beliefs, but your OP is solely on Judas and the condition regarding Judas is different from the other disciples and the believers after them. So in that respect, he was never saved as in sealed as His as we are today for Judas died before Jesus did so he wasn't bought with a price.. and was not around for the Day of Pentecost to be sealed as His with that permanent seal of adoption.
That is all I have to share on this subject by His grace as I hope it is sufficient for you to receive by His grace. Amen.
Now Jesus prophesied that He had to go away in order for the promise of the permanancy of the indwelling Holy Spirit to be fulfilled in John 14th chapter. Due note He gave the Holy Spirit again in John 20th chapter in verse 22, but yet again, He told them to wait afterwards because it was not permanent yet which did become permanent at the day of Pentecost to fulfill the promise of the Comforter while Jesus was away.
Anyway... the purpose of being saved.. of being sealed as His did not occur until He went to stand beside the right hand of God the Father to build a place for us so that He may come and receive us unto Himself as promised in John 14th chapter.
So none of the disciples were "officially" sealed as His until that day of Pentecost.
Thus.. Judas was never sealed as His to be saved as His.
Now some may try to use Judas as an excuse for non OSAS beliefs, but your OP is solely on Judas and the condition regarding Judas is different from the other disciples and the believers after them. So in that respect, he was never saved as in sealed as His as we are today for Judas died before Jesus did so he wasn't bought with a price.. and was not around for the Day of Pentecost to be sealed as His with that permanent seal of adoption.
That is all I have to share on this subject by His grace as I hope it is sufficient for you to receive by His grace. Amen.
Then that also means the idea of even discussing whether Judas was or wasn't saved, is irrelevant, for both sides of the argument (OSAS and non-OSAS alike).
Yet I question these views that it is all irrelevant because Jesus had not died yet. As BLC correctly pointed out in his first post, the concept of "entering the Kingdom of God". That was certainly possible before Christ, and I can only think that salvation was as well. Whether Jesus died for the person after they died, or before they died, it's still the same sacrifice for sin.
Yet I question these views that it is all irrelevant because Jesus had not died yet. As BLC correctly pointed out in his first post, the concept of "entering the Kingdom of God". That was certainly possible before Christ, and I can only think that salvation was as well. Whether Jesus died for the person after they died, or before they died, it's still the same sacrifice for sin.
I don't think anyone is clear about this. You can say hell, or one of the many different words for place of the dead, you could say heaven, you could say "soul sleep", until the resurrection..
I don't think Judas went to heaven let's put it that way.
Although there is a theory that Judas was simply doing God's will and plan and purpose of His life, that without Judas Jesus would never have been crucified and we'd never be saved. This is a matter of God's sovereignty and foreknowledge and predestination but let's not debate about that. Jesus knew the heart of all his followers, those that didn't believe in him, those that did but would betray him, those that did genuinely believe and would never betray him, those that did believe but would deny him three times etc. Whether God's foreknowledge and His will are the same is a whole matter of debate.
All I can say is, from our point of view, from Peter's or John's or James's point of view, I think Judas was as much a disciple and apostle as they were.. until he betrayed Christ of course. Saying , "he was never saved in the first place", can only be said with the benefit of hindsight to fit a particular doctrinal view (OSAS). I don't think it's so black and white personally.
I don't think Judas went to heaven let's put it that way.
Although there is a theory that Judas was simply doing God's will and plan and purpose of His life, that without Judas Jesus would never have been crucified and we'd never be saved. This is a matter of God's sovereignty and foreknowledge and predestination but let's not debate about that. Jesus knew the heart of all his followers, those that didn't believe in him, those that did but would betray him, those that did genuinely believe and would never betray him, those that did believe but would deny him three times etc. Whether God's foreknowledge and His will are the same is a whole matter of debate.
All I can say is, from our point of view, from Peter's or John's or James's point of view, I think Judas was as much a disciple and apostle as they were.. until he betrayed Christ of course. Saying , "he was never saved in the first place", can only be said with the benefit of hindsight to fit a particular doctrinal view (OSAS). I don't think it's so black and white personally.
I just point out the inconsistencies when trying to fit the OSAS view to the matter of Judas.. for example, BLC in his first post said
It makes sense, that a person who is not really saved, is only an acquantaince at best. But unfortunately that's one example of using human logic and reasoning to fit a doctrinal position (OSAS) to the bible.
However, scripture says Judas was a familiar friend of Christ and Christ trusted in him:
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
So I think this view that Judas was only an acquaintance is wrong.
It makes sense, that a person who is not really saved, is only an acquantaince at best. But unfortunately that's one example of using human logic and reasoning to fit a doctrinal position (OSAS) to the bible.
However, scripture says Judas was a familiar friend of Christ and Christ trusted in him:
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
So I think this view that Judas was only an acquaintance is wrong.
How can anyone come to the conclusion by Judas doing miracles that he was a believer have you not ever read :
Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mt 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
What part of I NEVER KNEW YOU , don't u understand. They were not saved while they were doing all these wonderful works then stepped away. Jesus never knew them, they were never saved , never were they one of His!!
One more thing here, show me one scripture where Judas did a miracle
Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mt 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
What part of I NEVER KNEW YOU , don't u understand. They were not saved while they were doing all these wonderful works then stepped away. Jesus never knew them, they were never saved , never were they one of His!!
One more thing here, show me one scripture where Judas did a miracle
"But was Judas always a devil ever since being first chosen by Christ? I don't think scripture ever says that."
so what does this scripture mean :
Joh 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the SON OF PERDITION; that the scripture might be fulfilled
PERDI''TION, n. [L. perditio, from perdo, to lose, to ruin.]
1. Entire loss or ruin; utter destruction; as the perdition of the Turkish fleet.
[In this sense, the word is now nearly or wholly obsolete.]
2. The utter loss of the soul or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death. The impenitent sinner is condemned to final perdition.
If we reject the truth, we seal our own perdition.
3. Loss. [Not used.]
so what does this scripture mean :
Joh 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the SON OF PERDITION; that the scripture might be fulfilled
PERDI''TION, n. [L. perditio, from perdo, to lose, to ruin.]
1. Entire loss or ruin; utter destruction; as the perdition of the Turkish fleet.
[In this sense, the word is now nearly or wholly obsolete.]
2. The utter loss of the soul or of final happiness in a future state; future misery or eternal death. The impenitent sinner is condemned to final perdition.
If we reject the truth, we seal our own perdition.
3. Loss. [Not used.]
Son of Perdition..
Barnes commentary says:
The term son was given by the Hebrews to those who possessed the character described by the word or name following. Thus, sons of Belial - those who possessed his character; children of wisdom those who were wise, Mat_11:19. Thus Judas is called a son of perdition because he had the character of a destroyer. He was a traitor and a murderer. And this shows that he who knew the heart regarded his character as that of a wicked man one whose appropriate name was that of a son of perdition.
Wesley commentary says:
Those whom thou hast given me I have guarded, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition - So one even of them whom God had given him is lost. So far was even that decree from being unchangeable! That the Scripture might be fulfilled - That is, whereby the Scripture was fulfilled. The son of perdition signifies one that deservedly perishes; as a son of death, 2Sa_12:5; children of hell, Mat_23:15, and children of wrath, Eph_2:3, signify persons justly obnoxious to death, hell, wrath. Psa_109:8.
Barnes commentary says:
The term son was given by the Hebrews to those who possessed the character described by the word or name following. Thus, sons of Belial - those who possessed his character; children of wisdom those who were wise, Mat_11:19. Thus Judas is called a son of perdition because he had the character of a destroyer. He was a traitor and a murderer. And this shows that he who knew the heart regarded his character as that of a wicked man one whose appropriate name was that of a son of perdition.
Wesley commentary says:
Those whom thou hast given me I have guarded, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition - So one even of them whom God had given him is lost. So far was even that decree from being unchangeable! That the Scripture might be fulfilled - That is, whereby the Scripture was fulfilled. The son of perdition signifies one that deservedly perishes; as a son of death, 2Sa_12:5; children of hell, Mat_23:15, and children of wrath, Eph_2:3, signify persons justly obnoxious to death, hell, wrath. Psa_109:8.
So the term son of perdition doesn't exclude the possibilitly of Judas becoming a son of perdition, rather than always having been one.
As scripture says, Judas was a friend of Jesus. An unsaved person or devil is usually not called a friend of God. So I think Judas became a devil. No doubt, Judas's guilt over betraying his friend Jesus, led him to commit suicide. At least that's a common view. If Judas was an evil masterminding person who was always a devil, I don't think Judas would have felt any remorse or pain over what he did and probably wouldnt have committed suicide over it.
As scripture says, Judas was a friend of Jesus. An unsaved person or devil is usually not called a friend of God. So I think Judas became a devil. No doubt, Judas's guilt over betraying his friend Jesus, led him to commit suicide. At least that's a common view. If Judas was an evil masterminding person who was always a devil, I don't think Judas would have felt any remorse or pain over what he did and probably wouldnt have committed suicide over it.
Sorry Baruch usually I can Amen. most of your posts, But I have to disagree with the disciples were not sealed until pentecost for this scripture I will have to throw in, I believe they were saved, sealed when They walked away from everything and followed Him.
Lu 10:17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.Lu 10:18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.Lu 10:19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.Lu 10:20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Your names ARE WRITTEN , not soon will be written
Lu 10:17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.Lu 10:18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.Lu 10:19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.Lu 10:20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Your names ARE WRITTEN , not soon will be written
So the question really is, was Judas a son of perdition because of who he was , or because of what he did? Bit of both I think. He was chosen by God and even by Christ to betray him. Of course to the others they considered him a disciple like they were, as long as he walked with them. We know Judas was a thief, but then again the other disciples weren't perfect either. Thomas was a doubter, Peter was over zealous and a denier of Christ, and an overall sinner, I'm sure the others had their various sins and vices. These weren't perfect people Jesus called, but sinners. Judas being a thief doesn't prove he wasn't a follower of Christ. What really sealed Judas's fate was his decision to betray Christ. Was Judas necessary for God's plan ? I can't see how. Maybe there is some significance there for why Jesus had to be led to the cross by a traitor. Or was Judas's act a foreseen thing? There are too many questions surrounding Judas, but I think most of us agree that Judas's fate was not a pleasant one.
W
Judas by his betrayal of Christ, became a murderer of the Son of God, obviously, since it resulted in Christ's death. There's a couple of theories about the origin of the surname Iscariot. On eis that Judas's surname Iscariot is probably a corruption of the Latin sicarius meaning murderer or assassin.
In Israeli, the name Iscariot means- a man of murder, a hireling. The name Iscariot orginated as an Israeli name. The name Iscariot is most often used as a boy name or male name.
http://www.meaning-of-names.com/israeli-names/iscariot.asp
That's where it comes from I think.
In Israeli, the name Iscariot means- a man of murder, a hireling. The name Iscariot orginated as an Israeli name. The name Iscariot is most often used as a boy name or male name.
http://www.meaning-of-names.com/israeli-names/iscariot.asp
That's where it comes from I think.
- Status