How does Jesus' suffering on the cross compare to an eternity in Hell?
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No, that is not circular reasoning. It just means you're not familiar with 1st Century Greek philosophy or the concept of Logos in biblical literature. Or in other words, you are not as intellectually astute as you give your self credit for and so you are not embarrassed by your mistake in calling it circular reasoning.
But that is OK. I was dumber than a box of rocks when I first started to read the bible in 1981. God healed my mind and gave me a very sharp intellect that I did not have before I was born again. There is still hope for you. But you have to start with humility. You have to be honest and humble. If you can't be intellectually honest then God will not help you. He will not help the one who insists on being a liar or those that are not honest with themselves and with God. You can be the worst of sinners and the biggest mess on the planet and He can still take you where you are and help you get to the place he wants you to be. However if you lie to Him in your heart and cannot humble yourself before Him He will not help you.
There is this place in the heart where a man "opposes himself" when that is going on there is no use in trying to speak to them about Jesus.
Acts 18:6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean:
But that is OK. I was dumber than a box of rocks when I first started to read the bible in 1981. God healed my mind and gave me a very sharp intellect that I did not have before I was born again. There is still hope for you. But you have to start with humility. You have to be honest and humble. If you can't be intellectually honest then God will not help you. He will not help the one who insists on being a liar or those that are not honest with themselves and with God. You can be the worst of sinners and the biggest mess on the planet and He can still take you where you are and help you get to the place he wants you to be. However if you lie to Him in your heart and cannot humble yourself before Him He will not help you.
There is this place in the heart where a man "opposes himself" when that is going on there is no use in trying to speak to them about Jesus.
Acts 18:6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean:
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There is no such thing as "eternal torture" in scripture (KJB). It is one of those doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1), which foists upon God, an attribute of the devil himself, namely unjust cruelty.
God is "long suffering", not "eternally suffering" the wicked to live. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. Is there a torment unto death, yes, but it is limited in time to what one has done in the body (Isaiah 59:18; Jeremiah 25:14; Romans 2:6; 2 Corinthians 5:10), which finality is to cease to be (Psalms 37:10).
God is "long suffering", not "eternally suffering" the wicked to live. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. Is there a torment unto death, yes, but it is limited in time to what one has done in the body (Isaiah 59:18; Jeremiah 25:14; Romans 2:6; 2 Corinthians 5:10), which finality is to cease to be (Psalms 37:10).
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This question sounds like people debating whether a toast will fall on the buttered side, while a person standing next to them is dying from starvation.
Jesus did sweat blood when the presence of God departed from Him. Sweating blood is a medical phenomenon that does happen under VERY extreme distress and suffering. For someone who was full of Holy Spirit since birth, this mentally must have felt like being in hell and unlike anything anyone of us ever experienced. When He was beaten, His whole body was flayed the whip had hooks or something to that effect on ends to tear the skin and flesh, so the severity of beating rendered Him unrecognizable.
How do we quantify suffering?
The real question is, if He endured, say, a medium atrocity level instead of mega atrocity, would that satisfy you? How morbid of a question are you asking. "Oh, have Him suffer some more"
Also, no one will be tortured eternally this is wrong understanding of the Scripture. Enemies of God vanish like smoke they are annihilated. Just because the fire keeps running and because the smoke stayed, doesn't mean that you keep burning the same piece of wood.
Jesus did sweat blood when the presence of God departed from Him. Sweating blood is a medical phenomenon that does happen under VERY extreme distress and suffering. For someone who was full of Holy Spirit since birth, this mentally must have felt like being in hell and unlike anything anyone of us ever experienced. When He was beaten, His whole body was flayed the whip had hooks or something to that effect on ends to tear the skin and flesh, so the severity of beating rendered Him unrecognizable.
How do we quantify suffering?
The real question is, if He endured, say, a medium atrocity level instead of mega atrocity, would that satisfy you? How morbid of a question are you asking. "Oh, have Him suffer some more"
Also, no one will be tortured eternally this is wrong understanding of the Scripture. Enemies of God vanish like smoke they are annihilated. Just because the fire keeps running and because the smoke stayed, doesn't mean that you keep burning the same piece of wood.
Reasoning and faith are related but different. Faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1 as the certainty of things not seen. Reason depends on what is seen. God tells me in Scripture that I will live again after physical death. It's an area where reason is not "inadequate"; it's irrelevant. Until you accept by faith the truth of God's promise, it will not make sense. Having exercised faith that it will be as God says, I now see that it is perfectly reasonable.
Paul was a member in training for the Sandhedrin ("the council" Matthew 5:22, 26:59; Mark 14:55, 15:1; Luke 22:66; John 11:47; Philippians 3:4-6) under Gamaliel (Acts 5:34, 22:3, and Acts was written by Luke, the Gospel writer), and was present in the days of Jesus' ministry, and His appearances amongst the Pharisees, both in and out of the Sanhedrin, as well as present for the stoning of a disciple of Jesus (Stephen, Acts 6-7(all), 8:1).
So, did Paul see and hear Jesus Christ before His arrest, trials (7) crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection and ascension? Yes.
Did Paul see Jesus afterwards also? Yes:
Acts is recorded by Luke, who was with Paul many times (2 Timothy 4:11).
So, did Paul see and hear Jesus Christ before His arrest, trials (7) crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection and ascension? Yes.
Did Paul see Jesus afterwards also? Yes:
Act_9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act_22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Act_26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
2Co_12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co_12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Acts is recorded by Luke, who was with Paul many times (2 Timothy 4:11).
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I don't recommend going into secular reasoning about this. It always brings people to the point when they jump into their mouth and declare everyone should be simply forgiven and taken to Heaven, that is everyone except Hitler, child molesters, and sometimes they will remember to make rapists exempt, too. You cannot rightfully divide truth about sin from secular viewpoint, because it will trap you to fall in hypocrisy.
The punishment is not eternal, the consequence is, and the same sort of people will always be requited for the same sort of works - this never changes. God is the impartial being of absolute power who makes come around every thing that goes around. He cannot do differently, He cannot change. Every thing must and will be requited. This is why Jesus is needed. The Bible says "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever". Not "same person is tortured forever". But the same kind of people is, because God does not change yesterday today or tomorrow. Also, nobody is being "tortured". Torturing implies intent of someone to torture. The Bible says torment. They suffer terribly being in the presence of God, because their spirit hates the Spirit of life and principles of life. Jesus didn't come to condemn anyone. It is said in multiple places that God will judge us from our own mouth. We will judge ourselves. So we better pursue the Spirit of life and His ways while we live, and become forgiving.
Faith does not reside in the head, it is in your spirit being or the inner man.
You will never come to faith by brain but through the spirit.
The punishment is not eternal, the consequence is, and the same sort of people will always be requited for the same sort of works - this never changes. God is the impartial being of absolute power who makes come around every thing that goes around. He cannot do differently, He cannot change. Every thing must and will be requited. This is why Jesus is needed. The Bible says "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever". Not "same person is tortured forever". But the same kind of people is, because God does not change yesterday today or tomorrow. Also, nobody is being "tortured". Torturing implies intent of someone to torture. The Bible says torment. They suffer terribly being in the presence of God, because their spirit hates the Spirit of life and principles of life. Jesus didn't come to condemn anyone. It is said in multiple places that God will judge us from our own mouth. We will judge ourselves. So we better pursue the Spirit of life and His ways while we live, and become forgiving.
Faith does not reside in the head, it is in your spirit being or the inner man.
You will never come to faith by brain but through the spirit.
The Gospel of John doesn't begin with an 'argument'. It begins with an explanation, drawn from several scriptures, namely Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8, among others. John 1:1, is an expounding upon Genesis 1:1,3,6-7, etc; Proverbs 8:22-36, and he reissues that explanation in 1 John 1:1-3, as in John 1:1-3.
The "son of God" is not being 'proven' by John's statements, but is explaining such verses, like as Zechariah 13:7, and so on. The Son of the Father is already present in Genesis 1, and John chapter 1, explains it. John calls Jesus the "Word", and this also (besides Genesis 1:1,&c "aleph tav") hearkens back to Genesis 3, notice:
"the voice of" is the "Word of" the Father, or in other words the person who came from the Father that represents or presents (as ambassador or highest messenger) the Father's will to others.
John 1 is not attempting to prove the Son of God's existence, but accepts it as underlying fact, based upon the previous scriptures that were accepted as cannon and true by the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews themselves.
The "son of God" is not being 'proven' by John's statements, but is explaining such verses, like as Zechariah 13:7, and so on. The Son of the Father is already present in Genesis 1, and John chapter 1, explains it. John calls Jesus the "Word", and this also (besides Genesis 1:1,&c "aleph tav") hearkens back to Genesis 3, notice:
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
"the voice of" is the "Word of" the Father, or in other words the person who came from the Father that represents or presents (as ambassador or highest messenger) the Father's will to others.
John 1 is not attempting to prove the Son of God's existence, but accepts it as underlying fact, based upon the previous scriptures that were accepted as cannon and true by the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews themselves.
@BuffyLou
Look here, if you don't believe from my words that soul is burnt up and destroyed, not tortured, here's proof.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
see Greek
There's earthly life and eternal life. If one does not have part with the Spirit of life to have eternal life, and their earthly life ended, it's kind of no-brainer that there's not going to be any more living, but rather passing away. Jesus through the whole sentence here directly denies eternal life of soul being a default.
Look here, if you don't believe from my words that soul is burnt up and destroyed, not tortured, here's proof.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
see Greek
There's earthly life and eternal life. If one does not have part with the Spirit of life to have eternal life, and their earthly life ended, it's kind of no-brainer that there's not going to be any more living, but rather passing away. Jesus through the whole sentence here directly denies eternal life of soul being a default.
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Hello again BuffyLou, the Apostle Paul was born right around the time that the Lord Jesus was (possibly the very same year, in fact), but no, I don't believe that they met each other prior to His Ascension. He certainly met Him in person afterwards however .. Acts 9, and he spent three years at His feet learning from Him after that, prior to beginning His missionary journeys .. e.g. Galatians 1:11-12, 15-18.
Question, do you believe it's necessary to know the Lord personally (meaning in this case literally, "face to face") to be able to appreciate the fact that His coming here to die in our stead on the Cross was a loving act on His part towards us
Finally, do you believe that the Bible is actually the inspired/breathed word of God, or do you believe it is nothing more than a collection of man's musings about the Divine
Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - St. Paul has some pretty amazing credentials in the Bible. Here is one of them
Question, do you believe it's necessary to know the Lord personally (meaning in this case literally, "face to face") to be able to appreciate the fact that His coming here to die in our stead on the Cross was a loving act on His part towards us
Finally, do you believe that the Bible is actually the inspired/breathed word of God, or do you believe it is nothing more than a collection of man's musings about the Divine
Thanks
~Deut
p.s. - St. Paul has some pretty amazing credentials in the Bible. Here is one of them
Acts 9
15 The Lord said to Ananias, “Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel."