Not By Works

[VCO]

I totally agree with you. Paul made it clear to us that salvation comes from God's love for us.

We are saved/righteous when we accept that love.

NO!

HE Knew every decision we would make in our ENTIRE LIFE, Before Time Began. Therefore, HE CHOSE us Before HE created the WORLD.

John 15:16-17 (NASB)
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
17 "This I command you, that you love one another.

You KEEP trying to get me to admit, we did something that earned our right to be SAVED. THAT IS A FALSE DOCTRINE. WE DO NOT DESERVE TO BE SAVED, WE DESERVE ETERNITY IN HELL. BY HIS MERCY and GRACE, HE SAVED US, WHEN ? ? ?


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. {When He Wrote our Names in the Book of Life. Rev. 13:8.}


Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. {Long before your first deed, when HE put that Saving Faith in your Heart, which is the Human Spirit.}
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.


Romans 5:9-10 (HCSB)
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life! {We do not get ONE IOTA of CREDIT for OUR SALVATION or SANCTIFICATION. You get FULL credit for the SIN you did. It keeps you from puffing up with Pride.}

Romans 8:28-31 (HCSB)
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who agapaō love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us?


You do not get Credit for a SINGLE IOTA of your SALVATION or SANCTIFICATION, HE DID IT ALL THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU, If you are Born Again.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I didn't say they contradict.

Their respective teachings are true for different audiences and different time periods.

Its like Moses teachings about animal sacrifices and circumcision were true for Israel during the period of the OT. But its not the truth for this time period.

The ordinances were not falsehoods, they were placeholders. God's truth will always be the truth, if the law could just be broken Jesus would not come. Noticed that it isn't the law that got cancelled, but the ordinance, and the debt, which is the curse of the law (separation from God). Instead of physical resting one day a week now Sabbath is "entered", not an ordinance. But the truth never changes. There was a rest then, and there is the Rest now. There was a circumcision then, and there is the Circumcision now (Col 2:11, Phil 3:3). There was a lamb then, and there is the Lamb now. There was a dove then, and there is the Dove now.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

NO!

HE Knew every decision we would make in our ENTIRE LIFE, Before Time Began. Therefore, HE CHOSE us Before HE created the WORLD.

John 15:16-17 (NASB)
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
17 "This I command you, that you love one another.

You KEEP trying to get me to admit, we did something that earned our right to be SAVED. THAT IS A FALSE DOCTRINE. WE DO NOT DESERVE TO BE SAVED, WE DESERVE ETERNITY IN HELL. BY HIS MERCY and GRACE, HE SAVED US, WHEN ? ? ?


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. {When He Wrote our Names in the Book of Life. Rev. 13:8.}


Ephesians 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.
13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. {Long before your first deed, when HE put that Saving Faith in your Heart, which is the Human Spirit.}
14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.


Romans 5:9-10 (HCSB)
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life! {We do not get ONE IOTA of CREDIT for OUR SALVATION or SANCTIFICATION. You get FULL credit for the SIN you did. It keeps you from puffing up with Pride.}

Romans 8:28-31 (HCSB)
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who agapaō love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us?


You do not get Credit for a SINGLE IOTA of your SALVATION or SANCTIFICATION, HE DID IT ALL THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU, If you are Born Again.

No one deserves an Eternity in Hell. God is not that Unkind.

 

[EleventhHour]

One and only one gospel has power to save....what he peddles is not the one and only one gospel with power to save!

The thief on the cross was not Calvinized, Baptized, homogenized, analyzed or galvanized.

He just did the will of God.

Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

Jesus said it and He believed it

No Works and no system Required.

 

[Guojing]

NO!
IF YOU ARE BORN AGAIN, it comes out of OUR Human Spirit, as part of our NEW NATURE of our Human Spirit.

You cannot Agape LOVE LIKE that, UNTIL YOU ARE BORN AGAIN. It is a GODLY LOVE.

It is NOT Natural for a human being to LOVE like that. It is Super Natural.

So are you saying it is possible to sacrifice the life of your own son for your enemies, after one is born again?

 

[Guojing]

The gospel is the foundation which you know.....I prayed that God would use this thread, make it the longest running thread and biggest thread in CC history because of all the skewed versions of salvation being peddled by deceivers on this site and in the world. I cannot let those that corrupt the message go unchallenged and or unanswered..........time is short, evil and false gospels march rank and file deep, the end is near and if we can but win one more to the truth......having said that....regardless of all the heated debates, spiritual rounds going overhead and negativity on this particular thread, it has opened eyes, converted some and is being used by God......I will post until CC gets shut down, this thread gets locked, the internet is dead and or the world burns if there is hope that even one can be converted to the truth that salvation is by grace through faith without one work attached to save a man!

Are 11 and you aware that your lens for Bible interpretation is that of covenant theology?

 

[VCO]

No one deserves an Eternity in Hell. God is not that Unkind.

So You think Hell is like a Prison Sentence, where you will get out when you served your sentence. That is totally a Laugh.

Revelation 14:11 (NCV)
11 And the smoke from their burning pain will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and his idol or who get the mark of his name.“

Revelation 20:10 (NCV)
10 And Satan, who tricked them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur with the beast and the false prophet. There they will be punished day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 13:42 (KJV)
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50 (HCSB)
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, separate the evil people from the righteous,
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:31-46 (HCSB)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You?
39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
40 “And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger and you didn’t take Me in; I was naked and you didn’t clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn’t take care of Me.’
44 “Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Revelation 20:15 (NIV)
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


If you think you can GET OUT OF HELL, then you do not UNDERSTAND what GOD THINKS OF SIN.

James 2:10 (NIV)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

 

[VCO]

So are you saying it is possible to sacrifice the life of your own son for your enemies, after one is born again?

I SAID NOT SUCH THING. You are grasping at straws. Our conversation it DONE.

 

[Guojing]

I SAID NOT SUCH THING. You are grasping at straws. Our conversation it DONE.

This current discussion came from this exchange with you. https://christianchat.com/threads/not-by-works.146296/post-4332124

I was asking you a question for clarification, instead of pre-judging you like what you have been doing to me throughout this conversation.

So do you agree that to love others is a work? That was all I was asking you.

 

[VCO]

This current discussion came from this exchange with you. https://christianchat.com/threads/not-by-works.146296/post-4332124

I was asking you a question for clarification, instead of pre-judging you like what you have been doing to me throughout this conversation.

So do you agree that to love others is a work? That was all I was asking you.

YOUR questions were TOTALLY Ridiculous, and LACKED complete misunderstanding.

That is evidence that You have NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN.

 

[Guojing]

YOUR questions were TOTALLY Ridiculous, and LACKED complete misunderstanding.

That is evidence that You have NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN.

How is it ridiculous? And why do you keep judging others, whether they are born again or not, when you don't even know who they are?

I used Romans 5:8 to explain to you how God loves us sinners, he sacrifice his only Son for us.

I then asked you whether, in the light of this revelation, how could one ever consider love as not a work.

 

[VCO]

This current discussion came from this exchange with you. https://christianchat.com/threads/not-by-works.146296/post-4332124

I was asking you a question for clarification, instead of pre-judging you like what you have been doing to me throughout this conversation.

So do you agree that to love others is a work? That was all I was asking you.

I have answered YOU a Couple times already, you make not read my posts.

I SAID NO!

A BORN AGAIN Christian there is no effort because it is the NEW NATURE OF OUR BORN AGAIN Human Spirit to Agape Love the Brethren, BECAUSE THAT love was Put into our hearts, which is our Human Spirit. IT JUST FLOWS OUT OF US.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (NIV)
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Guojing]

I have answered YOU a Couple times already, you make not read my posts.

I SAID NO!

A BORN AGAIN Christian there is no effort because it is the NEW NATURE OF OUR BORN AGAIN Human Spirit to Agape Love the Brethren, BECAUSE THAT love was Put into our hearts, which is our Human Spirit. IT JUST FLOWS OUT OF US.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (NIV)
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

God love us by sacrificing his Son for us, while we were his enemies. That is how Paul defined the love of God for us in Romans 5:8

To you, that is not a work. Because by your point above, you believe that a born again Christian, it will just flow out of us, we will sacrifice our sons for our enemies.

I am just following your reasoning above.

 

[VCO]

God love us by sacrificing his Son for us, while we were his enemies. That is how Paul defined the love of God for us in Romans 5:8

To you, that is not a work. Because by your point above, you believe that a born again Christian, it will just flow out of us, we will sacrifice our sons for our enemies.

I am just following your reasoning above.

NO HE IS NOT TELLING US TO BE WILLING TO SACRIFICE OUR SONS. YOU HAVE SO TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD THAT VERSE.

No you are not following my reasoning, that is obvious. Here is the VERSE I HAVE been talking about:

Romans 5:5 (NIV)
5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.


He isn't a Deity WAY UP YONDER SOMEWHERE.

HE is a Deity in our Hearts, which is our Human Spirit. Both the Holy Spirit is IN US, and the MIND OF CHRIST. A very real Relationship, a very REAL and Personal Experience, and a very realistic FRIENDSHIP with HIM. That AGAPE LOVE is HOW WE KNOW HIM PERSONALLY, and it comes OUT OF US, both towards HIM and towards OTHER Born Again Believers.

THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM IS A 100% VERY REAL.

 

[Magenta]

The thief on the cross was not Calvinized, Baptized, homogenized, analyzed or galvanized.
He just did the will of God. Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

Jesus said it and He believed it

No Works and no system Required.

That tells me that paradise is not heaven

 

[Guojing]

NO HE IS NOT TELLING US TO BE WILLING TO SACRIFICE OUR SONS. YOU HAVE SO TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD THAT VERSE.

No you are not following my reasoning, that is obvious. Here is the VERSE I HAVE been talking about:

Romans 5:5 (NIV)
5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.


He isn't a Deity WAY UP YONDER SOMEWHERE.

HE is a Deity in our Hearts, which is our Human Spirit. Both the Holy Spirit is IN US, and the MIND OF CHRIST. A very real Relationship, a very REAL and Personal Experience, and a very realistic FRIENDSHIP with HIM. That AGAPE LOVE is HOW WE KNOW HIM PERSONALLY, and it comes OUT OF US, both towards HIM and towards OTHER Born Again Believers.

THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM IS A 100% VERY REAL.

I never said he is telling us to do that. Our salvation under the gospel of grace is about God's love for us. We receive that love as a gift.

I am saying to love someone is a work. Whether you are loving God or loving man, its a work. It requires sacrifice, it is not something that just flows out of us, without any effort on our part.

 

[Guojing]

That tells me that paradise is not heaven

Paradise, or Abraham's bosom is described in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

Before Christ, that is where Jews, those who are not cut off from the covenant that God made with national Israel, go to when they die.

 

[EleventhHour]

Are 11 and you aware that your lens for Bible interpretation is that of covenant theology?

Yes God makes covenants in the bible.

 

[SoulWeaver]

So You think Hell is like a Prison Sentence, where you will get out when you served your sentence. That is totally a Laugh.

Revelation 14:11 (NCV)
11 And the smoke from their burning pain will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and his idol or who get the mark of his name.“

Revelation 20:10 (NCV)
10 And Satan, who tricked them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur with the beast and the false prophet. There they will be punished day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 13:42 (KJV)
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50 (HCSB)
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, separate the evil people from the righteous,
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:31-46 (HCSB)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of it His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You?
39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
40 “And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger and you didn’t take Me in; I was naked and you didn’t clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn’t take care of Me.’
44 “Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Revelation 20:15 (NIV)
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


If you think you can GET OUT OF HELL, then you do not UNDERSTAND what GOD THINKS OF SIN.

James 2:10 (NIV)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

I agree with you on some things you say here and I have always respected you and learn a lot from your posts but have to respectfully admit that I am not fully convinced in eternal torment of individuals. The only argument for it that I am still considering to this day, is Matthew 25:46 that you cited. Everything else is very easily refutable. Just because the smoke of their torment rises forever does not mean individuals are tormented forever. Likewise you can also have a fire that keeps going and going always, and smoke rising as a witness, but that doesn't mean you keep burning the same piece of wood.

The main reason why I am not inclined to believe people are tormented forever isn't psychological or unwillingness to accept it if it were the case. But there are many Scriptures which suggest enemies of God will be obliterated - vanish like smoke, blotted out, perished, utterly destroyed, die, found no more. So as the Bible cannot contradict itself, I am still looking for a satisfactory conclusion to connect it all.

Also, Jesus here says this:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Insisting that the soul keeps living through torment, instead of being burnt up and annihilated with torment, totally makes no sense in the context of what Jesus says here it we test run it in the meaning of torment. The sentence would make no sense. Furthermore, since Jesus wanted to make a point to fear God, He would've definitely then used the chance capitalizing on eternal torment here because it's a lot scarier than just dying, and He would not say kill.

And similarly the eternal torment of individual soul idea leads to other nonsensical premises. Take this verse above. Let's ignore the context and assume Jesus meant torment here. So God can torment both body and soul. The physical body goes back to dust. To get a spiritual body, it must have been sown first in the physical through believing in Christ (1 Cor 15). Which body will then be tormented? And so on.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I agree with you on some things you say here and I have always respected you and learn a lot from your posts but have to respectfully admit that I am not fully convinced in eternal torment of individuals. The only argument for it that I am still considering to this day, is Matthew 25:46 that you cited. Everything else is very easily refutable. Just because the smoke of their torment rises forever does not mean individuals are tormented forever. Likewise you can also have a fire that keeps going and going always, and smoke rising as a witness, but that doesn't mean you keep burning the same piece of wood.

The main reason why I am not inclined to believe people are tormented forever isn't psychological or unwillingness to accept it if it were the case. But there are many Scriptures which suggest enemies of God will be obliterated - vanish like smoke, blotted out, perished, utterly destroyed, die, found no more. So as the Bible cannot contradict itself, I am still looking for a satisfactory conclusion to connect it all.

Also, Jesus here says this:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Insisting that the soul keeps living through torment, instead of being burnt up and annihilated with torment, totally makes no sense in the context of what Jesus says here it we test run it in the meaning of torment. The sentence would make no sense. Furthermore, since Jesus wanted to make a point to fear God, He would've definitely then used the chance capitalizing on eternal torment here because it's a lot scarier than just dying, and He would not say kill.

And similarly the eternal torment of individual soul idea leads to other nonsensical premises. Take this verse above. Let's ignore the context and assume Jesus meant torment here. So God can torment both body and soul. The physical body goes back to dust. To get a spiritual body, it must have been sown first in the physical through believing in Christ (1 Cor 15). Which body will then be tormented? And so on.

Some more contradictions that arise if we believe eternal torment of individual soul:

- "Consume them in wrath, consume them that they may not be": God keeps working on it but is unable to consume them
- "The tree that gives bad fruit is cast into the fire": it keeps burning but is not consumed, like the burning bush
- The world does not pass away, it only keeps burning
- The flame does not "consume the chaff" as the Bible says; asbestos chaff
- Souls that did not receive eternal life somehow get to exist eternally - the soul that sinned does not die