Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[Grandpa]

So then God could desire all men be saved, but allow them to perish?

Quite possibly. God does seem to give people what they want.

If men have free will, it makes sense to say God allows things. But what would God allowing things look like in a world where men's decisions are eternally set by God?

By God allowing things it refines those who He has chosen for eternal Life. It makes them stronger.

Like working out. You have to exercise to get stronger.

If God just allowed free will to run rampant He would have no control over how much a person was "refined" or even if they ever would be refined.

 

[Grandpa]

John 12:32

When Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on a pole, anyone who merely looked at it would be saved from the death sting of the fiery serpents. Yet many died.

So they had a choice and "all' cannot be referring to the saved/elect.

All is ONLY referring to the saved. It can't refer to the un-saved. There would be no such thing as un-saved or unbelievers.

 

[Grandpa]

1 Timothy 4:9-10
“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.”

Who actually will be saved? “THOSE THAT BELIEVE.” They must understand something to believe.

Not only NT but in the OT as well.

Yes...?

Isn't that what I said?

 

[Bbrdrd]

Quite possibly. God does seem to give people what they want.


By God allowing things it refines those who He has chosen for eternal Life. It makes them stronger.

Like working out. You have to exercise to get stronger.

If God just allowed free will to run rampant He would have no control over how much a person was "refined" or even if they ever would be refined.

You're talking from both sides of your mouth again. First you admit God could allow some to perish who He desires saved, then you revert to God orchestrating everything which would require God control actions.

If God is precision controlling "refinement" then He isn't simply allowing things to happen but directing them and in effect causing them.

That makes Him the author of sin.

 

[EleventhHour]

Men are not saved by their own will or their own understanding.

Men are saved by God.

Again trying to make it look those who are non Calvinist believe we save ourselves.

When Calvinists do this they demonstrate they cannot support their doctrine of irresistible grace and that God has chosen some for salvation and from others He withholds grace.

Proverbs 1:24-26
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes...?

Isn't that what I said?

Right let see how this makes sense in a word substitution exercise.

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of elect men, especially of those elect”

Seems rather redundant to me.

 

[EleventhHour]

You're talking from both sides of your mouth again. First you admit God could allow some to perish who He desires saved, then you revert to God orchestrating everything which would require God control actions.

If God is precision controlling "refinement" then He isn't simply allowing things to happen but directing them and in effect causing them.

That makes Him the author of sin.

Both sides of there mouths exactly.... why because the dogma of forced salvation cannot bear the weight of biblical scrutiny.

Yes in Calvinism God is the author sin.

 

[EleventhHour]

Regeneration does not precede belief/faith that is an incorrect doctrine of John Calvin and not taught in scripture.

God does not regenerate the sinners heart so that a person can accept Him.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17

Not ..... regeneration comes by hearing

 

[dcontroversal]

God still uses the foolishness of preaching to bring men to Salvation.

The fact that He is drawing someone to Christ doesn't change that fact.

I believe all the same things you do. Mostly.

I just believe the credit goes to God and not to men.

If you have paid any attention to what I say I have ALWAYS SAID ALL GLORY TO CHRIST...thst does not change the facts that..

a. God reasons with us dia the word

b. Testifies to ALL MEN dia creation and the invisible

c. MEN MUST CHOSE to acknowledge, believe and confess faith in the gospel to be saved

and contrary to Calvinist dogma....it is open to all men, not all are called, many are and of the many few confess to belief.

 

[Just_Jo]

Limited atonement?

How can anyone set what is God at a limit?
Did someone say to Him, ok that's enough....lol NO!

Salvation is a gift from God,but man has to accept this gift ... any man,any time and anywhere.

God has done His part in making a way for us to reconcile unto Him. The Holy Spirit does His part in bringing conviction for sin into a heart of an unbeliever .

We then by faith in hearing what He has done believe and repent,and God does NOT limit that covering.

When men change the word for their own beliefs or benefits ,then they follow falsely.

 

[Guojing]

Limited atonement?

How can anyone set what is God at a limit?
Did someone say to Him, ok that's enough....lol NO!

Salvation is a gift from God,but man has to accept this gift ... any man,any time and anywhere.

God has done His part in making a way for us to reconcile unto Him. The Holy Spirit does His part in bringing conviction for sin into a heart of an unbeliever .

We then by faith in hearing what He has done believe and repent,and God does NOT limit that covering.

When men change the word for their own beliefs or benefits ,then they follow falsely.

If you believe man needs to accept the gift, before his sins can be atoned, you are also limiting that atonement, just in another way.

You can’t see that?

 

[Just_Jo]

If man has no part in Salvation,then they are not saved .

There is no limiting in acceptance.

 

[Just_Jo]

maybe one day some of us will understand exactly what a 'Calvinist is and Why they are different
from others who love their Saviour???

I guess we all have " Growing Pains"!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, it just comes from me.

I believed in my free-will when I was coming to Christ.

I believed that my prayers and my will were causing God to move and to act.

this is strangely how could you will cause God to do anything! Not sure where this thinking even comes from.

It was after studying Salvation and understanding that it is a gift that I realized it was God who caused me to act and not the other way around.

It was also at this time that I knew that I could never be smart enough to create all the situations and follow all the Lords instructions to lead myself perfectly into Salvation the way that it happened.

all what instructions?

whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved, the tax collector did that. Many people have done that. Thenworld already knows it deserves judgement (see romans 1) al they need to do is do as John and Jesus and others have said and repent and learn of the true gift of God which comes via the cross,

OT people could not be born again, because the payment had not yet been made and the spirit was not given to all, it was a foreign concept to them, (see nicodemus) it did not occure really until the New Testament after the cross (see the day of pentecost) when the HS was sent, to make people alive in him and ongoing them with gifts of the spirit and enable them to produce true fruits of the spiri. The OT lived by faith, really no different than us, only we have a greater power,

 

[Grandpa]

Limited atonement?

How can anyone set what is God at a limit?
Did someone say to Him, ok that's enough....lol NO!

Salvation is a gift from God,but man has to accept this gift ... any man,any time and anywhere.

God has done His part in making a way for us to reconcile unto Him. The Holy Spirit does His part in bringing conviction for sin into a heart of an unbeliever .

We then by faith in hearing what He has done believe and repent,and God does NOT limit that covering.

When men change the word for their own beliefs or benefits ,then they follow falsely.

The Word is not changed.

Limited Atonement just means that the atonement is limited to those who believe in Christ.

Un-believers do not receive the atonement.

That's how its limited.

 

[Grandpa]

You're talking from both sides of your mouth again. First you admit God could allow some to perish who He desires saved, then you revert to God orchestrating everything which would require God control actions.

If God is precision controlling "refinement" then He isn't simply allowing things to happen but directing them and in effect causing them.

That makes Him the author of sin.

Only in your mind does that make it so.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And yet all men AREN'T saved. Are they? At least I don't think so. That makes this verse hard to understand.

What about Pharoah? The Caananites? Amelikites? All the people in the flood? The Romans? The Jews?


Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God must be controlling what happens in the life of people who Love Him and are called according to His Purpose. Otherwise, if their free will were to intervene it couldn't be said that ALL things. Or really if ANY free will were to intervene it couldn't be said ALL things work for the good.

Only God is good.

 

[Grandpa]

If you have paid any attention to what I say I have ALWAYS SAID ALL GLORY TO CHRIST...thst does not change the facts that..

a. God reasons with us dia the word

Which you have no way of understanding until God gives you understanding.

You can't reason with someone who can't understand.

God is a spirit but we are carnal.

b. Testifies to ALL MEN dia creation and the invisible

That God exists. Not the gospel of Salvation.

c. MEN MUST CHOSE to acknowledge, believe and confess faith in the gospel to be saved

Which they cannot do until they are given understanding.

 

[Grandpa]

Again trying to make it look those who are non Calvinist believe we save ourselves.

When Calvinists do this they demonstrate they cannot support their doctrine of irresistible grace and that God has chosen some for salvation and from others He withholds grace.

Proverbs 1:24-26
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh.

Irresistible Grace is only extended to Gods Elect.

Unbelievers can easily resist Grace.

 

[Grandpa]

Right let see how this makes sense in a word substitution exercise.

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of elect men, especially of those elect”

Seems rather redundant to me.

It IS redundant.

Why say He is the Saviour of all men and then say He is the Saviour especially of those that believe?

Does that mean that those who don't believe are also Saved? NO.


It means that there are men, right now and in the future, who don't believe but will believe. God is the Saviour of them too.

 

[Grandpa]

this is strangely how could you will cause God to do anything! Not sure where this thinking even comes from.

Well it was pretty simple. I would pray and God would answer those prayers. Very quickly.

all what instructions?

whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved, the tax collector did that. Many people have done that. Thenworld already knows it deserves judgement (see romans 1) al they need to do is do as John and Jesus and others have said and repent and learn of the true gift of God which comes via the cross,

OT people could not be born again, because the payment had not yet been made and the spirit was not given to all, it was a foreign concept to them, (see nicodemus) it did not occure really until the New Testament after the cross (see the day of pentecost) when the HS was sent, to make people alive in him and ongoing them with gifts of the spirit and enable them to produce true fruits of the spiri. The OT lived by faith, really no different than us, only we have a greater power,

Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

If you love me keep my commandments.

Come to me and I will give you rest.

Take every thought captive.

Abide in me.



What are you repenting of if you aren't following instructions? Repenting is a lot more complicated and difficult than merely making a statement that you repented.