Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[dcontroversal]

The context of John 6:44 shows that Jesus is not speaking of some kind of inherent inability. I asked you to prove the Calvinist doctrine of inability which is a specific doctrine, I expected you to actually defend the doctrine you claim to support.

Instead you keep quoting a single verse out of context to read it in a very specific way that the context does not support. It's not a matter of twisting Scripture, but understanding the meaning of a verse by reading the surrounding verses. Which is why I posted:
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

When we consider the context we see that Jesus is no referring to an inherent inability but the manner in which He is revealed, which is a direct revelation by the Father. The verse is an accusation against the pharisees who claimed to be following God but were completely oblivious to what the Father reveals.

To pull the verse out in isolation and ignore the contextual meaning of it is twisting Scripture. How you can characterize understanding the verse based on the surrounding verses as "twisting" is absolutely laughable.

So no, you did not demonstrate an inability with your proof text. Merely your own willingness to seek out verses to say what you want rather than to take the time to understand what a verse means based on a contextual reading.

The Calvinistic Way revealed right here in this post is described accurately....!!

 

[dcontroversal]

he does chose,

he does not force

now matter how you try to say it, fatalism says a believer has no choice and a non believer has no choice, thus in reality it is forced on them.

that's our issue bro..

One of our issues I might add.

 

[dcontroversal]

not all who are drawn are saved, we see this in John 6

i have witnessed god draw many people to himself yet in the end, those people continued to say they would do it later, and died never having recieved,

many are called few are chosen

Another issue with Calvinism exposed right here...

 

[dcontroversal]

not all who are drawn are saved, we see this in John 6

i have witnessed god draw many people to himself yet in the end, those people continued to say they would do it later, and died never having recieved,

many are called few are chosen

I have seen this as well and we also have examples in Scripture of conviction and rejection

 

[dcontroversal]

Belief is NOT a choice. Belief is something that you are given.

Look at the fruit of the Spirit. Look at Ephesians 2:8-10.

Whosoever SEES AND BELIEVES is clear enough

AND ALL OF CREATION SPEAKS, INCLUDING the INVISIBLE, in every KNOWN LANGUAGE so that they are without excuse.

Plain as day when the erroneous religious blinders are taken off.

 

[dcontroversal]

You aren't reading it properly.

You don't want to or you can't. Not sure what is going on here.

Romans 9:15-16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


It would be not of THEM that willeth or THEM that runneth were an entire NATION being talked about here.

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


Nay but "O Nation...."

This whole part is talking about individuals. IT IS ALSO talking about the nation of Israel. But that doesn't subtract from the fact that it is about INDIVIDUALS too.

Another go to saying by Calvinists....always everyone else "reading it wrong"........we can read just fine, we also embrace context and for sure DO NOT TWIST words to fit our religious persuasion.....HOWEVER, Calvinists on the other hand do.....this was exposed a while back.....once such example was changing the word KOSMOS (World) to mean elect..........

 

[Grandpa]

This is what I think it comes from, someone was afraid he may try to save himself so he came up with this view.
oh how fear can taint us

however I do not think all calvinist are afraid so would not use this against them in any way I would be assuming

No, it just comes from me.

I believed in my free-will when I was coming to Christ.

I believed that my prayers and my will were causing God to move and to act.

It was after studying Salvation and understanding that it is a gift that I realized it was God who caused me to act and not the other way around.

It was also at this time that I knew that I could never be smart enough to create all the situations and follow all the Lords instructions to lead myself perfectly into Salvation the way that it happened.

 

[Grandpa]

Whosoever SEES AND BELIEVES is clear enough

AND ALL OF CREATION SPEAKS, INCLUDING the INVISIBLE, in every KNOWN LANGUAGE so that they are without excuse.

Plain as day when the erroneous religious blinders are taken off.

You mean when you disregard that no one comes to Christ unless drawn by the Father.

And further disregarding the fact that you can do Nothing without Christ.

And further worship your own pride and will.


Then yeah, its plain as day. We all caused God to Save us because we saw and we believed. We perfectly repented, we perfectly believed, we perfectly studied, and it brought us perfectly to Christ and to Salvation. We are Great!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Let’s rephrase this to make it the way I see it

1. salvation is a gift of god

2. we are saved by grace THROUGH faith

3. faith is a gift of god, but like any gift, it can be rejected

A point to be made.....being persuaded of something indicates reasoning and choice....

God said, "Let us REASON TOGETHER"......Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow.

Paul said.....KNOWING THE TERROR of the LORD.....WE PERSUADE MEN.

It is ridiculous to say that we have no choice in the matter......WE ARE SHOWN by creation and the invisible to the extent NO MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE......and GOD REASONS WITH US dia the SCRIPTURES AND MEN.....and like JOSHUA SAID.....CHOOSE you this day whom you will serve.

THEY in ROMANS chose to SERVE THE CREATURE (SELF) over the CREATOR............

Whosover is clear....and MEN do have a choice, Calvinism is false!

 

[Grandpa]

This saying cannot be taken in isolation. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- God Himself -- draws sinners to the Savior through the Gospel.

That is why the preaching of the Gospel in all the world and to every creature is a commandment of Christ. And Paul says that the Gospel is the POWER OF GOD unto salvation (Rom 1:16) and that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17)

Whenever the true Gospel is preached God Himself is present with the Gospel, and it is God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who draws all men to Christ.

So all you have to do is preach the gospel and everyone within hearing distance is saved.

Brilliant!!

 

[1ofthem]

I tried to get them to look back to the OT in regards to the reference to the potter and the clay verses. They acted like it was some kind of a crime to reference the OT scripture in which it came from.

I can't see why they wont take the whole Bible into account? You have to rightly divide the scripture and if you do, then it completely demolishes Calvin's teachings.

Anyways, it is alarming that folks believe and teach such stuff. I think @dcontroversal is right though, it is a cult, and they are not handling the word of God with honesty and integrity. They are not taking the whole word of God into the picture and I'm not sure if that is because they have just been misled into doing this or what...but it is not biblical at all. If anyone would honestly look at this dogma, then they would see how far from the truth it really is and how dangerous it is to preach and teach Calvinism to anyone.

 

[dcontroversal]

You mean when you disregard that no one comes to Christ unless drawn by the Father.

And further disregarding the fact that you can do Nothing without Christ.

And further worship your own pride and will.


Then yeah, its plain as day. We all caused God to Save us because we saw and we believed. We perfectly repented, we perfectly believed, we perfectly studied, and it brought us perfectly to Christ and to Salvation. We are Great!!

You said nothing of value and like normal, disregard scripture to peddle a man and his Catholic view.

 

[dcontroversal]

So all you have to do is preach the gospel and everyone within hearing distance is saved.

Brilliant!!

That sounds very familiar.......Oh yeah......Hath God really said that you shall die if you eat....no, what he means is you shall be as God .....

 

[EleventhHour]

So all you have to do is preach the gospel and everyone within hearing distance is saved.

Brilliant!!

This is a very dishonest take on what he wrote.

 

[dcontroversal]

These guys have nothing.....we quote scripture and they come back with a mouthy twist of what we say.....EVERY CALVINIST I have ever engaged has done this....their modus operandi is as follows...

a. Mouthy twist of what we say
b. A few go to slogans and phrases
c. A few go to verses out of context
d. A twist of a few key words witinin a few verses
e. Sow doubt on what the bible actually states
f. Attempt to ruin the witness of the other person by "a" and "b" above

Rinse, repeat and like the one dude said.....Tell something false long and loud enough and eventually it will be believed!

 

[dcontroversal]

This is a very dishonest take on what he wrote.

The Calvinist way.......

 

[1ofthem]

No, it just comes from me.

I believed in my free-will when I was coming to Christ.

I believed that my prayers and my will were causing God to move and to act.

It was after studying Salvation and understanding that it is a gift that I realized it was God who caused me to act and not the other way around.

It was also at this time that I knew that I could never be smart enough to create all the situations and follow all the Lords instructions to lead myself perfectly into Salvation the way that it happened.

And this is what most of them say...They say they believed they had a choice to accept Jesus or not...Then they found Calvin and shut it all down and put limits on it for others, and try to limit atonement.

Can you not see how dangerous it really is to tell others, especially the lost, that they may or may not have a chance? This is casting a stumbling block and doubt for others.

 

[dcontroversal]

And this is what most of them say...They say they believed they had a choice to accept Jesus or not...Then they found Calvin and shut it all down and put limits on it for others, and try to limit atonement.

Can you not see how dangerous it really is to tell others, especially the lost, that they may or may not have a chance? This is casting a stumbling block and doubt for others.

Boiled down, their dogma means that there is no need for the bible, no need to witness, no need to do anything because your destiny is sealed....God said man "A" will be saved and man "B thru Z" is outta luck.

They can deny this, but in reality this is exactly what their dogma boils down to.

 

[Grandpa]

And this is what most of them say...They say they believed they had a choice to accept Jesus or not...Then they found Calvin and shut it all down and put limits on it for others, and try to limit atonement.

Can you not see how dangerous it really is to tell others, especially the lost, that they may or may not have a chance? This is casting a stumbling block and doubt for others.

Theology is not for the lost.

Theology is for those who are already saved and are studying Salvation.


There is nothing more SURE than someone coming to Christ and receiving Salvation. People can believe whatever they want to believe and God will use it for the Good for those that Love Him and are Called according to His Purpose.

He saved me even though I erroneously believed that I was making all the brilliant decisions to cause Him to Save me.


Salvation doesn't belong to theologians. Theologians can't spoil Gods Plan. Salvation doesn't belong to preachers. Salvation belongs to God and God will determine how you look at a subject until it is time for you to grow up.

 

[Grandpa]

Boiled down, their dogma means that there is no need for the bible, no need to witness, no need to do anything because your destiny is sealed....God said man "A" will be saved and man "B thru Z" is outta luck.

They can deny this, but in reality this is exactly what their dogma boils down to.

God still uses the foolishness of preaching to bring men to Salvation.

The fact that He is drawing someone to Christ doesn't change that fact.

I believe all the same things you do. Mostly.

I just believe the credit goes to God and not to men.