What does it "REALLY" mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

[Mattathias]

it is really quite extraordinary that people who devote so much time & effort into denying the divinity of Jesus Christ call themselves 'christians'

i suppose truly a person does the work of their father -- spreading darkness while masquerading as a messenger of light

Jesus Christ ascended to his God and my God, his Father and my Father. Jesus does the work of his God and my God, his Father and my Father. As a follower of Christ, do the work of his God and my God, his Father and my Father.

Neither Jesus Christ nor his followers do the work of any other deity.

 

[posthuman]

I see God in the angel of the Lord.

please have a look at how bluto wisely instructed you:

Why does it escape your notice that Jesus Christ is the one and only physical manifestation of His Father? Jesus said to Philip at John 14:9, "he that has seen me has seen the Father." This "DOES NOT MEAN" Jesus is God the Father. It means that the Father has no separate manifestion from the Son.

 

[posthuman]

I believe the author of Hebrews when he says that God did not speak in his Son until these last days.

sounds nice except that's not what Hebrews 1:2 says.
it says in these last days He has spoken through the Son; it does not say He did not also previously.
the LORD, who had appeared to Moses and many others in the form of His Angel, came in the flesh. the Bible defines denial of this fact as being a "liar" and "antichrist"

in fact: Christ says no one has ascended except Him who descended: the Son of Man who is in heaven. ((John 3:13))
it is implicit in this statement that He has previously ascended, else no one has, ever.
go and read Judges 13:19-20 - The Angel of the LORD ascended. God explicitly calls this "a wondrous thing!"
this is proof. the LORD provides it to us, so that when people like you come along, we are not deceived and led away.

you say you are a teacher and you do not know these things?

 

[Mattathias]

Now the best you have is to "lump" me in with the translators of the NASB.

Hardly.

You have yet to address any of my "scriptual" arguments proving the angel of the Lord to be the Lord God Almighty.

I’ve addressed them. You’re responding to it.

Why does it escape your notice that Jesus Christ is the one and only physical manifestation of His Father?

He’s not.

Jesus said to Philip at John 14:9, "he that has seen me has seen the Father." This "DOES NOT MEAN" Jesus is God the Father.

Do you think I believe he is? If so, you haven’t understood a word I’ve said. If not, why are you shouting?

It means that the Father has no separate manifestion from the Son.

No. It means that Jesus is the incarnation of the Father’s logos.

Hebrews 1:1 is a typical Unitarian argument brought up by the likes of Anthony Buzzard and others that Jesus as the Son of God did not appear in the OT because vs2 says, "in these last days has spoken to us in His Son." God spoke to the Fathers and prophets in many ways and portions, in other word God spoke in two phases one before the actual coming or incarnation into the world and one through the Son's coming at His actual incarnation.

The Father did not speak in his Son prior to these last days. He spoke in others.

The point is that God wants us to understand that His latest communication is greater and better than all those portions and ways in the OT.

Okay.

This does not preclude the Son from appearing in the OT.

It does.

If you notice the Son/angel of the Lord in the OT acted as a precurisor/mediator for the Jews/the nation of Israel.

The Son didn’t, the angel did.

The Son appearing or incarnating as a permanent human being makes good on all the promises of God in the OT which are fulfilled in the NT.

The Son, being begotten by the Father/conceived in the womb by his mother makes him a unique, human person. This mortal human person died. This mortal human person was raised from the dead as an immortal human person. It is this human person’s preaching, teaching, deeds, and shed blood which makes good on all of the promises of his God and my God, his Father and my Father, in the OT which are fulfilled in the NT.

There is an immortal human person (a Jew) presently sitting at the right hand of his God and my God, his Father and my Father, in heaven.

No one else. Just that Jew and his God/my God. Sitting beside one another on God’s throne.

 

[Mattathias]

sounds nice except that's not what Hebrews 1:2 says.
it says in these last days He has spoken through the Son; it does not say He did not also previously.
the LORD, who had appeared to Moses and many others in the form of His Angel, came in the flesh. the Bible defines denial of this fact as being a "liar" and "antichrist"

in fact: Christ says no one has ascended except Him who descended: the Son of Man who is in heaven. ((John 3:13))
it is implicit in this statement that He has previously ascended, else no one has, ever.
go and read Judges 13:19-20 - The Angel of the LORD ascended. God explicitly calls this "a wondrous thing!"
this is proof. the LORD provides it to us, so that when people like you come along, we are not deceived and led away.

you say you are a teacher and you do not know these things?

The passage in Hebrews is clear about when the Father began speaking in his Son, and who spoke in prior to speaking in his Son.

The Son ascended to heaven after his resurrection, not before.

 

[Mattathias]

please have a look at how bluto wisely instructed you:

I looked at it. He has said that it’s not a salvation issue. If you found wisdom in that, it’s not reflected in your comments.

 

[Mattathias]

In post #154 I backdoored the application of the non-deity Hebrew title onto the angel of the Lord, using Psalm 110:1 - no follower of Jesus I’ve ever met has rejected identifying the Son as the person whom Yahweh is addressing as David’s lord (Heb. adoni, pronounced adonee) in that passage.

In this post I’m going to go through the front door with an example of someone speaking directly to the angel of the Lord - whom you believe is the Son.

“The angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, ‘The LORD is with you, O valiant warrior.’ Then Gideon said to him, ‘O my lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us?...’

(Judges 6:12-13 NASB)

Here is a link to an interlineal of Judges 6:13. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/judges/6-13.htm

Are you able to read Hebrew? If you are, you will instantly recognize that the angel of the Lord is addressed with the non-deity title “adoni.” The angel of the Lord is an angel, not the deity. If we’re unable to read the verse in Hebrew, we can still see this is true in the English translation. The translators have correctly rendered the Hebrew in English with the title “lord” which distinguishes the angel from God.

If Gideon had believed he was addressing God himself rather than the representative of God, then the Hebrew word Gideon would have used is adonai, the deity title, not adoni, the non-deity title.

See the trinitarian commentary in NET, footnote 31 sn.

https://netbible.org/bible/Judges+6

Difficult? Not for JAT.

 

[posthuman]

The passage in Hebrews is clear about when the Father began speaking in his Son, and who spoke in prior to speaking in his Son.

The Son ascended to heaven after his resurrection, not before.

you need to read both of those passages again; neither says what you are saying they say.

Judges 13 already proved your teaching is false. why do you go on teaching it?

 

[bluto]

Hardly.



I’ve addressed them. You’re responding to it.



He’s not.



Do you think I believe he is? If so, you haven’t understood a word I’ve said. If not, why are you shouting?



No. It means that Jesus is the incarnation of the Father’s logos.



The Father did not speak in his Son prior to these last days. He spoke in others.



Okay.



It does.



The Son didn’t, the angel did.



The Son, being begotten by the Father/conceived in the womb by his mother makes him a unique, human person. This mortal human person died. This mortal human person was raised from the dead as an immortal human person. It is this human person’s preaching, teaching, deeds, and shed blood which makes good on all of the promises of his God and my God, his Father and my Father, in the OT which are fulfilled in the NT.

There is an immortal human person (a Jew) presently sitting at the right hand of his God and my God, his Father and my Father, in heaven.

No one else. Just that Jew and his God/my God. Sitting beside one another on God’s throne.

Wow, your more far gone that I first thought. Especially when you say, Jesus is a "unique" human person. If Jesus Christ is simply a "unique" human person who is not God how come He is clearly identified or presented as the Agent of creation here at John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14 by the Apostles and by His own Father?

You will not that God said at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone." John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being."

Suppose you please reconcile Isaiah 44:24 with John 1:3 and the other verses I presented? And btw, I think we all understand what Jesus did while on this earth and the purpose of His crucifixation, were past that Mattathias.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[bluto]

I looked at it. He has said that it’s not a salvation issue. If you found wisdom in that, it’s not reflected in your comments.

That's right? Not understanding the identity of the angel of the Lord is not a salvational issue because I know many who don't believe the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ yet they are saved. But, when you deny the deity of Jesus Christ and say, "He's a unique human person that preached a message, went to the cross and died for us and right now is in heaven at the right hand of God your on extremely dangerous ground.

i don's specifically know what happened to you but I do know you can't say, "Well I use to be a Trinitarian and now I'm not." Over the years I've said the following hundreds of times. "I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus and somehow miss the fact that He is God. you cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of god and somehow miss that He is God. Please read Romans 8:9-11.

And another thing wihile I at it as it pertains to Hebrews 1. Does not vs3 teach that Jesus Christ has the exact same nature as His Father. And at vs6 why does His Father say that all the angels should worship Him? Especially in view of the fact that you believe Jesus is an angel? The Father also identifies His Son as God at vs8. The Father also identifies His Son at vs10 as the creator. You got alot of explnin to do Mattathian?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Mattathias]

Wow, your more far gone that I first thought.

Do you believe there are demons operating on this forum? I tell you, there are. You will find them reviling those who belong to God and to Jesus Christ.

Especially when you say, Jesus is a "unique" human person.

Surely you have heard trinitarian scholars and theologians refer to Jesus as a unique person. If you ever hear them say that he is a unique human person (or a human person) you will hear them through Chalcedon out the window.

If Jesus Christ is simply a "unique" human person who is not God...

Jesus Christ is functionally God.

…how come He is clearly identified or presented as the Agent of creation here at John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14 by the Apostles and by His own Father?

He isn’t. His God is.

You will not that God said at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone."

That is Jesus’ God speaking in Isaiah, not Jesus.

John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being."

See again the Tyndale Bible. As I have time I’ll post translations which support Tyndale.

Suppose you please reconcile Isaiah 44:24 with John 1:3 and the other verses I presented?

It starts with knowing who the God of Jesus Christ is.

And btw, I think we all understand what Jesus did while on this earth and the purpose of His crucifixation, were past that Mattathias.

If you believe that then why did you post a comment to me about it? And why have you not disagreed with what I wrote in response? It is fundamentally opposed to what you said.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation...

Well let's take a closer look at that statement. To believe that Jesus is God is absolutely necessary for salvation, since only God as Man could take away our sins. And that already makes it two persons within the Godhead.

In the beginning [eternity past] was the Word, and the Word [Christ] was with God [the Father], and the Word was God [the Son]. (John 1:1)

So unless a person sincerely believes that John 1:1 is true, they cannot be saved (no matter what they imagine). Which means that what you have stated above cannot be true. And Jesus made it crystal clear that unless a person believes that He is the "I AM" (the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) he or she will die in their sins. This is not a matter for debate but for the salvation of souls.

There is absolutely no excuse for anyone to deny that Jesus is God, since the Bible makes this as plain as day.

 

[Mattathias]

...when you deny the deity of Jesus Christ and say, "He's a unique human person that preached a message, went to the cross and died for us and right now is in heaven at the right hand of God your on extremely dangerous ground.

History supports the validity of your statement. Your spiritual ancestors slaughtered mine. They would today if they could.

I don's specifically know what happened to you but I do know you can't say, "Well I use to be a Trinitarian and now I'm not."

You’re mistaken. I converted from my former faith to faith in the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Over the years I've said the following hundreds of times. "I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus and somehow miss the fact that He is God. you cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of god and somehow miss that He is God. Please read Romans 8:9-11.

I’ve told you how he is God.

And another thing wihile I at it as it pertains to Hebrews 1. Does not vs3 teach that Jesus Christ has the exact same nature as His Father. And at vs6 why does His Father say that all the angels should worship Him? Especially in view of the fact that you believe Jesus is an angel? The Father also identifies His Son as God at vs8. The Father also identifies His Son at vs10 as the creator. You got alot of explnin to do Mattathian?

To whom? My explaining is falling on deaf ears, bluto.

 

[bluto]

Well let's take a closer look at that statement. To believe that Jesus is God is absolutely necessary for salvation, since only God as Man could take away our sins. And that already makes it two persons within the Godhead.

In the beginning [eternity past] was the Word, and the Word [Christ] was with God [the Father], and the Word was God [the Son]. (John 1:1)

So unless a person sincerely believes that John 1:1 is true, they cannot be saved (no matter what they imagine). Which means that what you have stated above cannot be true. And Jesus made it crystal clear that unless a person believes that He is the "I AM" (the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) he or she will die in their sins. This is not a matter for debate but for the salvation of souls.

There is absolutely no excuse for anyone to deny that Jesus is God, since the Bible makes this as plain as day.

Hold on there Nehemiah, read "ALL" that I said. Don't just pick and choose one comment and run with it without taking your time and reading everything first.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[EternalFire]

Well let's take a closer look at that statement. To believe that Jesus is God is absolutely necessary for salvation, since only God as Man could take away our sins. And that already makes it two persons within the Godhead.

In the beginning [eternity past] was the Word, and the Word [Christ] was with God [the Father], and the Word was God [the Son]. (John 1:1)

So unless a person sincerely believes that John 1:1 is true, they cannot be saved (no matter what they imagine). Which means that what you have stated above cannot be true. And Jesus made it crystal clear that unless a person believes that He is the "I AM" (the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) he or she will die in their sins. This is not a matter for debate but for the salvation of souls.

There is absolutely no excuse for anyone to deny that Jesus is God, since the Bible makes this as plain as day.

Like this?

In the beginning [of eternity past] was the Divine Person 2 (who is 100% Divine and 100% Human) of 3 in 1 Triune God, and the Divine Person 2 (who is 100% Divine and 100% Human) of 3 in 1 Triune God was with Divine Person 1 of 3 in 1 Triune God, and the Divine Person 2 (who is 100% Divine and 100% Human) of 3 in 1 Triune God was Divine Person 2 (who is 100% Divine and 100% Human) of 3 in 1 Triune God.

 

[bluto]

History supports the validity of your statement. Your spiritual ancestors slaughtered mine. They would today if they could.



You’re mistaken. I converted from my former faith to faith in the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.



I’ve told you how he is God.



To whom? My explaining is falling on deaf ears, bluto.

Oh please Mattathias, now I know your completely off the rails. What do you think is going to happen when I appear before Jesus Christ (or even you for that matter), is He going to ask me why my so-called ancestors slaughtered others? And if I say, "It's not my fault" what do you think He is going to say? "It is too, why didn't you listen to Mattathais, your out he's in."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[fredoheaven]

Like this?

In the beginning [of eternity past] was the Divine Person 2 (who is 100% Divine and 100% Human) of 3 in 1 Triune God, and the Divine Person 2 (who is 100% Divine and 100% Human) of 3 in 1 Triune God was with Divine Person 1 of 3 in 1 Triune God, and the Divine Person 2 (who is 100% Divine and 100% Human) of 3 in 1 Triune God was Divine Person 2 (who is 100% Divine and 100% Human) of 3 in 1 Triune God.

This seems to be heeding to to a wrong direction on the pre-incarnate Christ. Christ is called the Word and in the eternity past, he was God.

 

[fredoheaven]

Do you believe there are demons operating on this forum? I tell you, there are. You will find them reviling those who belong to God and to Jesus Christ.



Surely you have heard trinitarian scholars and theologians refer to Jesus as a unique person. If you ever hear them say that he is a unique human person (or a human person) you will hear them through Chalcedon out the window.



Jesus Christ is functionally God.



He isn’t. His God is.



That is Jesus’ God speaking in Isaiah, not Jesus.



See again the Tyndale Bible. As I have time I’ll post translations which support Tyndale.



It starts with knowing who the God of Jesus Christ is.



If you believe that then why did you post a comment to me about it? And why have you not disagreed with what I wrote in response? It is fundamentally opposed to what you said.

A functional God? You mishandle what the really the bible says, even God the Father, his Father formally address him as "Thy throne O God". Are you better than his Father?

 

[Mattathias]

A functional God?

No.

…God the Father, his Father …

Who is also his God and my God.

...formally address him as "Thy throne O God".

God’s God addresses him as God. Can you make sense out of that with your theology, fred?

Are you better than his Father?

No one is better than the one true God.

 

[Mattathias]

Oh please Mattathias, now I know your completely off the rails.

The Father seeks those who will worship him in spirit and in truth.