Oops, I meant "2nd" not "1st", and you're right...none of the destruction Peter predicted that will accompany Jesus when He comes as a "thief in the night" has happened yet.
The Rapture Thief Robs Jesuit Futurism Of The 7 Years Of Tribulation
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
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I don't see how you missed it. It's being argued that the 144,000 got the victory over the Antichrist by going to heaven after being killed in the "7 years tribulation".
1 John 4:4 KJV is clear that we can overcome Antichrist WHILE yet alive before we go to heaven.
We can't willingly blind ourselves to Biblical truth, then argue that truth doesn't exist. 2 Peter 3:10 KJV is clear that when Jesus comes as a "thief in the night", this entire corner of our solar system is going to look like the aftermath of an alien ANTIFA invasion. There won't be seven more minutes of anything, let alone seven more years:
- not one square inch of habitable land
- no atmosphere
- no air to breathe
- no ozone layer to filter out cosmic solar rays
- not one bit of light to pierce the thick black darkness
OK, done mulling it over. Now, let's see on which side the weight of evidence tips the scales:
- There's not going to be seven more anything after Jesus comes as a thief.
- God is well able to protect His people in the midst of tribulation just as sure as removing them from it.
- Jesus prayed that God would not take His faithful out of this world, but protect them while in it.
- Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism are Papal diversionary tactics invented by Jesuits for the purpose of seducing Protestants into abandoning their Biblical claim the Papacy is the predicted Antichrist, and to instead look for the Antichrist in the past (Jesuit Preterism), the future (Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism), ANYWHERE but in the direction it's been all along: ROME.
I didn't ask about Jesus obtaining victory in death...I asked if it was possible for the saints to gain the victory over the Antichrist without dying. Your answer should have been "yes" - thus, it is established that the 144,000 DID NOT NECESSARILY die in order to obtain victory, as you insist.
What kind of death? There's nothing here to indicate it was a martyr's death...it is your Jesuit Futurist idea of a short, last seven years chronology which says, "well, they must have been killed by the Antichrist because surely they all didn't die of natural causes in the span of just seven years."
Protestant Historicism correctly teaches the Antichrist has killed MILLIONS in the past and will seek to do so in the near future again as the final Babylonian confederacy of Revelation 18 is set up just before Jesus comes...but that millions more who loved not their lives unto death overcame Antichrist and died of old age, like Luther, Spurgeon, etc.
I didn't know there were safe places on the Earth to which God snatched Noah up and delivered him...I thought the ENTIRE planet was flooded and that God delivered Noah in the MIDST of a global, worldwide tribulation without snatching him up to the sky and out from the midst of it...
You do realize that the "taken" ones are the ones who get destroyed, right?
"As it was in the days of Noah...the flood came and TOOK them all away."
"Where (will they be taken), Lord?" "Where the body is, there will the vultures be gathered."
Total inconsistency. It is obvious that the ones taken in verse 39 are the wicked -- but we're going to turn around and make those that are "taken" in the subsequent verses to be the righteous?
You see, this is why anyone who breaks free from the seductive power of Jesuit Futurism can look back and see how inconsistent an idea it is. How can anyone be "taken away in the Rapture" when Jesus comes as a thief in the night and leave others behind for "seven more years" when Peter says that when the Lord comes as a thief, the Earth is going to burn up?
The post-trib model of Protestant Historicism relies on no such subjective creativity. God has demonstrated His ability and intent to deliver His people in the midst of tribulation without removing them from it, whether Daniel in the OT or Jesus' NT prayer in John 17.
Good gravy, Noah never left the Earth at all!
You appeal to the example of Lot where God led someone out of tribulation to another Earthly location...how does that establish Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism? Please find us just one - just one - example where someone was delivered from tribulation by God snatching them up to the heavens and then you will have the precedent you need. But, we already know such a precedent doesn't exist (Enoch, Elijah, the resurrected saints absolutely were NOT suffering tribulation at the time of their ascensions so we can't appeal to those examples).
Ignored what? It is actually you who ignores that God shut the mouths of lions, can make the saints non-flammable, can shield the saints from terrible plagues, etc.
You can't have it both ways, friend!
You can't claim the angels of Revelation 14 are preaching the everlasting Gospel to a "7 year tribulation generation" when it is claimed by Jesuit Futurists that there will be plenty of saints who accept the Gospel once they find out they've been left behind and will go forth preaching that Gospel, right or wrong?Again, the angels of Revelation 14 are "messages" preached by the saints, because there is not one example of angels preaching it, but plenty of examples of angels and God directing people to where the saints are preaching it...because we are "His witnesses" declaring the innocence of God against the false claims of the enemy.
To claim they are literal angels preaching the Gospel is just another example of how grossly inconsistent Jesuit Futurism really is.
Don't you guys claim there's gonna be plenty of saints after the "rapture" to preach it? Are you suggesting that a "left behind" scenario with disappearing loved ones and crashing planes is not sufficient to convince people that the Gospel is true, and to continue preaching it for seven more years?
God protects us all the time. we see testimony after testimony,millions of testimonies.
BUT........
Saints get martyred.
Are you aware of martyrdom????
It is not "either<> or"
WE embrace BOTH DYNAMICS[/QUOTE] All this does nothing to disprove my point, which is that there's nothing in the text which demands Earthly deliverance immediately precedes heavenly residence.
What is willfully ignored by pre-trib is that when Jesus comes as a thief, the world is going to burn up and there won't be any seven more years of anything.
Your biggest mistake is assuming that anything which points to the wicked being alive after Jesus comes means a 7 year tribulation period after He comes to collect the saints - which is accomplished by ignoring the many texts which show destruction accompanies the presence of the Lord at His coming. What you should realize is that 1,000 years after His coming and collection of the saints, there is going to be a SECOND RESURRECTION - the resurrection of the wicked, in which they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. It is then, after the post-trib rapture, that the wicked will see the saints with the bridegroom while they are shut out awaiting the fire to fall from heaven.
Nope, the Bible says that at the post-trib rapture, we go away with Jesus for a 1,000 years to New Jerusalem while the wicked lie destroyed by the brightness of His coming, awaiting future punishment.
The problem with pre-trib Jesuit Futurism is that it ignores all the verses in Isaiah, Jeremiah, 2 Peter, the Psalms, etc., which depict a destroyed, empty, silent, dark, inhabitable Earth.
It puts forth continuous activity taking place down here, from the time in which we live, to the so called "seven years of tribulation", to the so called "1,000 year reign over the wicked", to the "battle of Armageddon which destroys the wicked" to the "Earth made new", etc.
Yes, that happens at the glorious, spectacular, thunderous Second Coming when Paul says the "dead in Christ shall rise first, the we who are alive and remain are caught up" at the exact moment when the wicked are "destroyed with the brightness of His coming."
Not pre-trib rapture anywhere in sight.
It matters what Christ taught. He clearly taught He would return to His generation. So perhaps you aren't understanding the meaning of 2 Pet 3:10 because I firmly believe it did happen, you just don't understand the meaning of the passage.
EARTH = ISRAEL
HEAVENS = The sky above on fire
WORKS = EVERYTHING BUILT IN ISRAEL, ESPECIALLY THE TEMPLE
ELEMENTS = The components that made up the temple, especially gold, will melt
10 and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
This language appears 4 other times in the OT to discuss the destruction of other places due to divine judgment. It basically means their world, as they knew it, was ending in a grand and overwhelming fashion.
The sky above did not "pass away with a great noise", friend. The sky is still very much there as it was in 70 AD, right?
Besides, where in the historic record do we read about a spectacular return of Jesus? IT"S NOT THERE. Are you suggesting no one was around to chronicle the greatest event that had ever happened in Earth's history? Where are the countless historic accounts of the many different cultures? A king of one country pretty much couldn't FART without the rest of the surrounding regions knowing about it, yet somehow the greatest event to ever happen somehow escaped their notice?
All the disciples but John were murdered by antichrist spirit.
According to revelation all refusing the mark are murdered.
You talk all around the facts but act like no saint is murdered in the gt.
Your answer evades the fact that a postrib rapture would assume there would be a MAIN BODY OF LIVING SAINTS on earth running from cave to cave from a AC bogeyman.
you can not cover up that the saints are all killed by ac during the gt because they refuse the mark.
Re read it
there are no dead in christ raised in rev 14.
not only that but the 144k IN REV 14 PRECEDE the living ones gathered as ripe fruit.
so ,nope ,rev 14 can not be the main gathering of saints in 1 thes 4.
2 COMPLETELY different events.
BTW....you have completely painted yourself into a corner.
you claim the 1 thes 4 event is also rev 19 where the saints return with Jesus on white horses.
where are the white horses in rev 14??????
In rev 14 angels gather.
Same for mat 24....angels gather.
rev 14,mat 25,and 1 thes 4,Jesus gathers.
rev 19 ....no gathering....,except in heaven, to assemble in heaven, on the white horses