(Jesuit) Preterism versus John 14

[Phoneman-777]

Everyone knows that when an ancient Israelite woman accepted a marriage proposal, the man would go back home to his father's house, build a marriage chamber while she waited and prepared herself, and then return for her so that he could take her back to his father's house and partake of the marriage supper and a new life in her new home.

"In my Father's house are many mansions...I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go...I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there may ye be also." -- John 14:2-3 KJV​

ACCORDING TO JESUIT PRETERISM, JESUS RETURNED INVISIBLY TO HIS UNSUSPECTING BRIDE, DECIDED TO STAY, DIDN'T TAKE HER BACK TO HIS FATHER WHERE HE PREPARED THE MANSIONS AND BANQUETS, AND LEFT HER TO DAILY SUFFER HARASSMENT AND ABUSE FROM HER BUCK-TOOTHED, HOOKED-NOSE, CLUBBED-FOOT EX-BOYFRIEND. COOL STORY, BRO.

 

[p_rehbein]

Cool Story?

hmm...................

 

[soberxp]

What a mess

Are you the bride of Jesus

 

[KJV1611]

Everyone knows that when an ancient Israelite woman accepted a marriage proposal, the man would go back home to his father's house, build a marriage chamber while she waited and prepared herself, and then return for her so that he could take her back to his father's house and partake of the marriage supper and a new life in her new home.

"In my Father's house are many mansions...I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go...I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there may ye be also." -- John 14:2-3 KJV​

ACCORDING TO JESUIT PRETERISM, JESUS RETURNED INVISIBLY TO HIS UNSUSPECTING BRIDE, DECIDED TO STAY, DIDN'T TAKE HER BACK TO HIS FATHER WHERE HE PREPARED THE MANSIONS AND BANQUETS, AND LEFT HER TO DAILY SUFFER HARASSMENT AND ABUSE FROM HER BUCK-TOOTHED, HOOKED-NOSE, CLUBBED-FOOT EX-BOYFRIEND. COOL STORY, BRO.

Heaven is the place that Jesus prepared for us, he prepared that place when he died and rose from the dead. Now each of us go there when Jesus comes for us at the death of our earthly bodies.

 

[Absolutely]

Everyone knows that when an ancient Israelite woman accepted a marriage proposal, the man would go back home to his father's house, build a marriage chamber while she waited and prepared herself, and then return for her so that he could take her back to his father's house and partake of the marriage supper and a new life in her new home.

"In my Father's house are many mansions...I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go...I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there may ye be also." -- John 14:2-3 KJV​

ACCORDING TO JESUIT PRETERISM, JESUS RETURNED INVISIBLY TO HIS UNSUSPECTING BRIDE, DECIDED TO STAY, DIDN'T TAKE HER BACK TO HIS FATHER WHERE HE PREPARED THE MANSIONS AND BANQUETS, AND LEFT HER TO DAILY SUFFER HARASSMENT AND ABUSE FROM HER BUCK-TOOTHED, HOOKED-NOSE, CLUBBED-FOOT EX-BOYFRIEND. COOL STORY, BRO.

Same is true of postribs.

Well with a few modifications.

They have no bride going to heaven or marriage supper.

So nope no postrib rapture.

It can not even be made to fit.

After the flood noah entered the ark and was carried miles into the sky being delivered by God.....oh,wait,it was BEFORE THE FLOOD.

after sodom burned to the ground abraham fetched lot....oh,wait..nope.

 

[Absolutely]

No brainer.

 

[KJV1611]

Same is true of postribs.

Well with a few modifications.

They have no bride going to heaven or marriage supper.

So nope no postrib rapture.

It can not even be made to fit.

After the flood noah entered the ark and was carried miles into the sky being delivered by God.....oh,wait,it was BEFORE THE FLOOD.

after sodom burned to the ground abraham fetched lot....oh,wait..nope.

I you haven't already participated in the marriage supper of the lamb and become married to Christ then you have missed the boat.

 

[posthuman]

I you haven't already participated in the marriage supper of the lamb and become married to Christ then you have missed the boat.

Revelation 19 is in the past?

 

[posthuman]

there's some slight variation among different sources, and this is a really simplified list, but the NT is full of language reflecting the ancient Hebrew betrothal process ((and you can find all this justified in the OT too)):

1. selection of the bride
2. payment of the price of the bride
3. betrothal of the bride
4. consent of the bride
5. cup of the marriage covenant
6. gifts for the bride
7. cleansing of the bride
8. departure of the groom to prepare a place for the bride
9. sanctification of the bride waiting for the return of the groom
10. return of the groom, snatching away the bride
11. marriage under the covering
12. marriage supper

brother i think we're in step 9 here waiting for step 10, @KJV1611
step 12 is after the end of all things, and the completion of our redemption - when we will dwell with Him forever in the place He is now preparing.

 

[KJV1611]

Revelation 19 is in the past?

It is in the past for those that are married to Christ and have become one flesh with him.

 

[KJV1611]

there's some slight variation among different sources, and this is a really simplified list, but the NT is full of language reflecting the ancient Hebrew betrothal process ((and you can find all this justified in the OT too)):

1. selection of the bride
2. payment of the price of the bride
3. betrothal of the bride
4. consent of the bride
5. cup of the marriage covenant
6. gifts for the bride
7. cleansing of the bride
8. departure of the groom to prepare a place for the bride
9. sanctification of the bride waiting for the return of the groom
10. return of the groom, snatching away the bride
11. marriage under the covering
12. marriage supper

brother i think we're in step 9 here waiting for step 10, @KJV1611
step 12 is after the end of all things, and the completion of our redemption - when we will dwell with Him forever in the place He is now preparing.

There are many reasons why I can't go along with that.
Jesus prepared the place for us by dying and being raised from the dead.
We as believers are already be married to Christ.
It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement.

 

[JaumeJ]

When our God tells us of future events He often declares them in the past tense assuring it is set and will occur.

 

[Corban]

My question is why are the Jesuits a reference point for Christians. I thought the Reformation sorted that out.

My next question is why is the Bible interpreted with human cultural traditions? I thought that the Lord was pretty clear that (i) Jewish traditions did not explain the Word, but "made it of none effect" (Mk.7:13), and (ii) we may not interpret scripture with our private thoughts (2nd Pet.1:20).

But I have another proposal. The Title is a doctrine based on John Chapter 14, and there is some pretty wild conjecture in these few posting up to now. Without addressing any one person, I propose that John Chapter 14 does not teach going to heaven, but how to get God into man. Consider these points.

1. John 20:30-13 tells us of the purpose of all that is written in the book of John. That we may believe in Jesus and HAVE God's divine LIFE.
2. John Chapter 1 introduces the theme of John. Seven things are presented so that God may achieve BETHEL - the House of God
3. John Chapter 2 introduces the Wedding Feast for a Bride who is the house of God - the BODY of Jesus Christ
4. John Chapter 3 introduces how God, a Spirit, makes His home (or House) by coming to dwell in the spirit of man by a New Birth which imparts eternal life

If we interpret scripture privately, the sky is the limit for mischief. But if we interpret scripture using scripture alone, the House of God is SIX things:

1. The Tabernacle of the Wilderness (Ex.25:8 etc.)
2. Solomon’s Temple (1st Ki.6:1 etc.)
3. Zerubbabel’s Temple (Ezr.1:2-5; Jn.2:16)
4. Our Lord Jesus’ physical Body (Jn.2:19-22)
5. The Church (1st Tim.3:15)
6. Our bodies (1st Cor.6:19)

So, to call the Father's House in John 14 Heaven has no scriptural basis. Granted, He dwells there, and has the True tabernacle which Moses and David copied there, but scripture NEVER calls this the "Father's HOUSE". In John 14 our Lord Jesus said that He would go and prepare an "abode" (the word "mansions" in the KJV is not warranted), and that He, "... will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:3). Notice the tense. Our Lord Jesus would go away, and come again, so that His disciples would, IN THAT DAY OF HIS RETURN, be where Jesus was as He spoke John 14:3. And verse 20 tells where the disciples will be "AT THAT DAY"! "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." That means that the theme of the Father's House is upheld in this Chapter again and the Father's House is God IN MAN.

Now let us recount the events of Christ GOING AWAY and RETURNING. Christ dies and both Matthew 12:40 and Ephesians 4:9 tells us that our Lord DESCENDED to the "heart of the earth". This is again confirmed by Acts Chapter 2 which says that our Lord's soul was not LEFT in Hades (v.27) and that this escape from Hades was by the resurrection (v.31-32). Shortly after this resurrection, our Lord Jesus meets a woman near the tomb and admonished her NOT to touch Him BECAUSE He had "NOT YET ASCENDED to His Father" (Jn.20:17). But that night He appears to His disciples and tells them to "handle and touch Him" (Lk.24:39). That means that our Lord Jesus had died, gone to Hades for three days and nights, RISEN, met the woman at the tomb (who may not touch Him), ASCENDED to the Father and RETURNED (so they could touch Him).

And then, having gone, and come again, as He predicted in John 14, HE BREATHED THE HOLY SPIRIT INTO THE DISCIPLES AND THEY BECAME THE HOUSE OF GOD (Jn.20:22). At "that day" the disciples were , where our Lord Jesus had been in John 14, IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN HIM, AND THAT DAY was resurrection day.

I propose that John 14 does not address HEAVEN, but the House of God - the Church (1st Tim.3:15). I am aware that this myth of going to a "mansion" in heaven is a cherished one. I am aware that many Priests and Pastors have used it as comfort at a funeral service, and I am aware that going to heaven at death is a widespread belief. But the facts of scripture NEVER address dead men going to heaven, and NEVER addresses heaven as the final destiny of men. John 14 was a prophecy about the THREE DAYS starting with Christ's death, where He "prepared" a place that was inaccessible because of sin, and came back to His disciples and made them the House of God.

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (1st Corinthians 6:19)

 

[KJV1611]

My question is why are the Jesuits a reference point for Christians. I thought the Reformation sorted that out.

My next question is why is the Bible interpreted with human cultural traditions? I thought that the Lord was pretty clear that (i) Jewish traditions did not explain the Word, but "made it of none effect" (Mk.7:13), and (ii) we may not interpret scripture with our private thoughts (2nd Pet.1:20).

But I have another proposal. The Title is a doctrine based on John Chapter 14, and there is some pretty wild conjecture in these few posting up to now. Without addressing any one person, I propose that John Chapter 14 does not teach going to heaven, but how to get God into man. Consider these points.

1. John 20:30-13 tells us of the purpose of all that is written in the book of John. That we may believe in Jesus and HAVE God's divine LIFE.
2. John Chapter 1 introduces the theme of John. Seven things are presented so that God may achieve BETHEL - the House of God
3. John Chapter 2 introduces the Wedding Feast for a Bride who is the house of God - the BODY of Jesus Christ
4. John Chapter 3 introduces how God, a Spirit, makes His home (or House) by coming to dwell in the spirit of man by a New Birth which imparts eternal life

If we interpret scripture privately, the sky is the limit for mischief. But if we interpret scripture using scripture alone, the House of God is SIX things:

1. The Tabernacle of the Wilderness (Ex.25:8 etc.)
2. Solomon’s Temple (1st Ki.6:1 etc.)
3. Zerubbabel’s Temple (Ezr.1:2-5; Jn.2:16)
4. Our Lord Jesus’ physical Body (Jn.2:19-22)
5. The Church (1st Tim.3:15)
6. Our bodies (1st Cor.6:19)

So, to call the Father's House in John 14 Heaven has no scriptural basis. Granted, He dwells there, and has the True tabernacle which Moses and David copied there, but scripture NEVER calls this the "Father's HOUSE". In John 14 our Lord Jesus said that He would go and prepare an "abode" (the word "mansions" in the KJV is not warranted), and that He, "... will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:3). Notice the tense. Our Lord Jesus would go away, and come again, so that His disciples would, IN THAT DAY OF HIS RETURN, be where Jesus was as He spoke John 14:3. And verse 20 tells where the disciples will be "AT THAT DAY"! "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." That means that the theme of the Father's House is upheld in this Chapter again and the Father's House is God IN MAN.

Now let us recount the events of Christ GOING AWAY and RETURNING. Christ dies and both Matthew 12:40 and Ephesians 4:9 tells us that our Lord DESCENDED to the "heart of the earth". This is again confirmed by Acts Chapter 2 which says that our Lord's soul was not LEFT in Hades (v.27) and that this escape from Hades was by the resurrection (v.31-32). Shortly after this resurrection, our Lord Jesus meets a woman near the tomb and admonished her NOT to touch Him BECAUSE He had "NOT YET ASCENDED to His Father" (Jn.20:17). But that night He appears to His disciples and tells them to "handle and touch Him" (Lk.24:39). That means that our Lord Jesus had died, gone to Hades for three days and nights, RISEN, met the woman at the tomb (who may not touch Him), ASCENDED to the Father and RETURNED (so they could touch Him).

And then, having gone, and come again, as He predicted in John 14, HE BREATHED THE HOLY SPIRIT INTO THE DISCIPLES AND THEY BECAME THE HOUSE OF GOD (Jn.20:22). At "that day" the disciples were , where our Lord Jesus had been in John 14, IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN HIM, AND THAT DAY was resurrection day.

I propose that John 14 does not address HEAVEN, but the House of God - the Church (1st Tim.3:15). I am aware that this myth of going to a "mansion" in heaven is a cherished one. I am aware that many Priests and Pastors have used it as comfort at a funeral service, and I am aware that going to heaven at death is a widespread belief. But the facts of scripture NEVER address dead men going to heaven, and NEVER addresses heaven as the final destiny of men. John 14 was a prophecy about the THREE DAYS starting with Christ's death, where He "prepared" a place that was inaccessible because of sin, and came back to His disciples and made them the House of God.

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (1st Corinthians 6:19)

Good point and thanks for putting that on my radar, I've never considered those verses that way.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus prepared the place for us by dying and being raised from the dead.

In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. ​

(John 14:2-4) ​

​

when He says He goes somewhere to prepare a place for us, and that He will return to take us to that place to be with Him there -- is that place the grave?
because that's where He went when He died on the cross, and the grave is where He returned from.
if [dying on the cross and rising from the grave] = [going to prepare a place for us and returning to take us there] then doesn't that make the Father's house Sheol??

but if He ascended to heaven to prepare a place for us, then we wait for Him to return from heaven and to take us there -- and the marriage supper is in heaven, not in the grave; we look forward to it, as we look forward to His return, to bring us there to be with Him.

 

[KJV1611]

In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. ​

(John 14:2-4) ​

​

when He says He goes somewhere to prepare a place for us, and that He will return to take us to that place to be with Him there -- is that place the grave?
because that's where He went when He died on the cross, and the grave is where He returned from.
if [dying on the cross and rising from the grave] = [going to prepare a place for us and returning to take us there] then doesn't that make the Father's house Sheol??

but if He ascended to heaven to prepare a place for us, then we wait for Him to return from heaven and to take us there -- and the marriage supper is in heaven, not in the grave; we look forward to it, as we look forward to His return, to bring us there to be with Him.

Jesus said "that where I am, there ye may be also." Jesus is in heaven. Before Jesus died, we could not go there because the way had not been made yet. This is why OT saints went to Abraham's bosom. The work was accomplished at the cross, that's when our sins we're done away with, allowing us entry into heaven.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus said "that where I am, there ye may be also." Jesus is in heaven. Before Jesus died, we could not go there because the way had not been made yet. This is why OT saints went to Abraham's bosom. The work was accomplished at the cross, that's when our sins we're done away with, allowing us entry into heaven.

so the place He goes to prepare for us is in heaven, not in the grave.
so the preparing that He is doing is in heaven, not in the grave.
so the return He is speaking of, to take us to be with Him, is returning from heaven, not returning from the grave.

so . . .

1. selection of the bride
2. payment of the price of the bride
3. betrothal of the bride
4. consent of the bride
5. cup of the marriage covenant
6. gifts for the bride
7. cleansing of the bride
8. departure of the groom to prepare a place for the bride
9. sanctification of the bride waiting for the return of the groom
10. return of the groom, snatching away the bride
11. marriage under the covering
12. marriage supper

step 8, going to prepare a place for us, is not the crucifixion, and step 10, returning to gather His bride to Himself, is not His rising from the grave.
step 8 is His ascension, when He went to prepare a place for His bride. and step 10 is His return from heaven - to take His bride to be with Him, which is culminated in step 11-12, the marriage itself & the feast wherein all rejoice & every tear is wiped away.

→ the marriage supper is future, not past. we're not wearing redeemed bodies yet. we're being sanctified in ourselves. we're the virgins waiting for the Groom, who comes at an hour we don't know. we're not an abandoned wife left at home while our husband goes and does.. does what? we're a betrothed bride waiting for the day our Beloved appears to take us, that we may be with Him forever, beholding His face. we know what He is doing - He's preparing a home for us, and a celebration for that day when He brings us there, where He is.

 

[posthuman]

Before Jesus died, we could not go there because the way had not been made yet. This is why OT saints went to Abraham's bosom. The work was accomplished at the cross, that's when our sins we're done away with, allowing us entry into heaven.

this is paying our price, step 2, slain before the foundation of the world. it is cleansing the bride, step 7, washing us with the water of the word & our baptism into His death. this is step 5, our sharing with Him the cup of the marriage covenant, by which we declare His death until He comes.

 

[KJV1611]

so the place He goes to prepare for us is in heaven, not in the grave.
so the preparing that He is doing is in heaven, not in the grave.
so the return He is speaking of, to take us to be with Him, is returning from heaven, not returning from the grave.

so . . .



step 8, going to prepare a place for us, is not the crucifixion, and step 10, returning to gather His bride to Himself, is not His rising from the grave.
step 8 is His ascension, when He went to prepare a place for His bride. and step 10 is His return from heaven - to take His bride to be with Him, which is culminated in step 11-12, the marriage itself & the feast wherein all rejoice & every tear is wiped away.

→ the marriage supper is future, not past. we're not wearing redeemed bodies yet. we're being sanctified in ourselves. we're the virgins waiting for the Groom, who comes at an hour we don't know. we're not an abandoned wife left at home while our husband goes and does.. does what? we're a betrothed bride waiting for the day our Beloved appears to take us, that we may be with Him forever, beholding His face. we know what He is doing - He's preparing a home for us, and a celebration for that day when He brings us there, where He is.

Let me ask you this, when you die are you going to heaven to be with the Lord?

 

[posthuman]

Let me ask you this, when you die are you going to heaven to be with the Lord?

here is step 10 of the betrothal process, immediately preceding the consummation of the marriage:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.​

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) ​

​