The Complacent christian world.

[Red33]

Red is a strange fellow

He believes he has been raised up as a preacher/teacher of the word, but when you put questions to him concerning scripture he has no answer to them

He revels in placing scripture before many to criticise or find fault with them

He certainly is on this website to try and extol himself, but then he constantly speaks of the need for humility

He lashes out at people and is rude to them, but then constantly speaks of love being a priority for a Christian

He believes that anyone who believes they can speak in tongues is in all probability bering led of satan

He believes satan and his confederates had the power to keep God Himself in the grave for three days

And a person does not need to repent for salvation

And when a person falls in their Christian life it could well be that God has instigated this/allowed it to happen to show his mercy and forgiveness to others

Oh well, never mind

You certainly have quite a list. Would anyone like to add to that list? GO AHEAD, MAKE MY DAY!

 

[AnandaHya]

Well if Red can say he is having fun making the comments he is I would suggest it does not say much for Red

But it seems from your words Ananda you are finding it amusing so I guess we are brightening up someones day

I teach high schoolers all day, if i don't laugh i would always be crying...

 

[livingbygrace]

You certainly have quite a list. Would anyone like to add to that list? GO AHEAD, MAKE MY DAY!

I must say Red I have been to churches for over thirty years and NEVER seen anyone who believes they have been raised up as a preacher/teacher of the word act like you do, or have such strange ideas, but this is the internet, so I guess that explains it

 

[AnandaHya]

You certainly have quite a list. Would anyone like to add to that list? GO AHEAD, MAKE MY DAY!

lol yep reminds me of my brothers nit everyone gotta make the munchkins dinner

no missing body parts in the morning please...

 

[Red33]

I didn't want complacency to set in, so I thought I would liven things up a bit. There's nothing wrong with that is there?

 

[AnandaHya]

I didn't want complacency to set in, so I thought I would liven things up a bit. There's nothing wrong with that is there?

I confronted my little brother because he loved to pick on me and make me mad and I asked him why he did it. I knew he loved me but why the constant nagging.

He told me "I want to give you an outlet for your pent up anger."

lol

I told him "I don't have pent up anger, I have newly made annoyance and you need to stop, because if I needed some one to vent my pent up anger on I had a husband now and he could lay off on the constant pulling hair and pinching." lol

I love my little brother and I know he loves me and we would give the other the person anything they needed that we had if they just asked.

My little brother bought me this laptop I'm typing on

Just because people don't agree on things doesn't mean they don't still love the other person.

However if someone gets on your nerves and refuses to listen to anything you say to them.

Well this chat site has an "ignore" list that you can edit just go to your "mail messages" and on the left hand side there is an edit "ignore" list button and you just type their user name in it.

keep it in Perspective.

YouTube - "We Will Stand" By Russ Taff

"Sometimes its hard for me to understand, we pull away from each other so easily. even though we are all walking the very same road. we walking the very same road. we build dividing walls between our brothers and ourselves. I don't care what label you care to wear. If you believe in Jesus you belong with me. The bond we share is all I care to see. We can change this world forever, if we join together and sing. YOUR MY BROTHER YOUR MY SISTER. ..there is NO FOE that can defeat us as long as we stand side by side. so take me by the hand...."

 

[unclefester]

But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. (Galatians 2:17-18).

I'm a tad surprised that you asked what I thought the meaning of these two verses to mean. If your understanding of them is different than what is said below, I'd be interested in hearing how so. Mostly cut and paste for expediency.... but my views as well. Paul was addressing Peter's actions with the Jews of Galatia and those who clung to the ceremonial laws as being necessary for salvation (so to speak). Peter's problem hadn't been that he didn't know that justification was only by faith. His problem was that he was acting inconsistently with what he knew to be the truth. Paul confronts Peter (and anyone else who engages in such inconsistent acts of legalism) with the logical results of this inconsistency.

The Questioning of Christ's Character: But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? (2:17).
Even though Peter and Paul had been brought up under the Law, they had both come to realize that the Law could never save them. Therefore, they are now seeking to be justified in Christ. However if they and all of the Jewish believers that followed them were wrong in leaving the Law and seeking only to be justified in Christ, then that means that Christ is the way of sin and not the way of salvation.
This is the question that had come up. Are Jewish Christians supposed to seek to be justified only by faith in Jesus Christ, or are they to seek justification through obedience to Jewish rituals, including separation from Gentiles?
If the latter is true, then Jesus has been promoting sin. Jesus taught that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out of him. He taught that all things are clean. He taught that you could be saved just by believing. Peter, by his actions, has been implying that Jesus was wrong. By his actions, Peter has been condemning Jesus. Jesus taught that the separation of Jew and Gentile was now invalid. He broke down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.
But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall. (Ephesians 2:13-14).
The work of Jesus was to bring the Jew and the Gentile into one body — the body of Christ. This means that there is to be no more separation between Jew or Gentile. Now Paul says, "Peter, you are going to have to make up your mind. Either Jesus was right and it is okay to eat with Gentiles or else He was wrong and He is guilty of leading us into sin."

Evidence of Peter's Transgression: For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor (2:18).
If Paul or Peter or any other Jewish Christian seeks to rebuild the legalistic system which he did away with when he was saved, then he is showing by his actions that he is a transgressor. He is either a transgressor for having torn the system down in the first place, or he is now a transgressor for trying to rebuild what he once tore down. In either case, he is showing that he has sinned. The point is obvious. Paul is saying in effect, "You are guilty of transgression, Peter. The only question is when did you do it? Did you do it when you first followed Jesus and set aside the ritualistic system of Judaism, or did you sin just now when you stopped eating with Gentiles?
For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God.
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.
I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. (Galatians 2:19-21).
If there was ever a man who might have been justified through the keeping of the Law, it would have been Paul. He had been circumcised on the eighth day according to the Law. He had become a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He was a Jew held to literal interpretation of the Scriptures. He had been trained in the school of Gamaliel. He had been zealous in his legalism. And yet, the only thing that Paul ever got from the Law was condemnation and death. The very Law that he struggled to keep condemned him because he was unable to keep it perfectly. The penalty for not keeping the Law perfectly is death. The Law condemned Paul to death. Christ is our deliverance from the penalty of the law.

 

[livingbygrace]

But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. (Galatians 2:17-18).

I'm a tad surprised that you asked what I thought the meaning of these two verses to mean. If your understanding of them is different than what is said below, I'd be interested in hearing how so. Mostly cut and paste for expediency.... but my views as well. Paul was addressing Peter's actions with the Jews of Galatia and those who clung to the ceremonial laws as being necessary for salvation (so to speak). Peter's problem hadn't been that he didn't know that justification was only by faith. His problem was that he was acting inconsistently with what he knew to be the truth. Paul confronts Peter (and anyone else who engages in such inconsistent acts of legalism) with the logical results of this inconsistency.

The Questioning of Christ's Character: But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? (2:17).
Even though Peter and Paul had been brought up under the Law, they had both come to realize that the Law could never save them. Therefore, they are now seeking to be justified in Christ. However if they and all of the Jewish believers that followed them were wrong in leaving the Law and seeking only to be justified in Christ, then that means that Christ is the way of sin and not the way of salvation.
This is the question that had come up. Are Jewish Christians supposed to seek to be justified only by faith in Jesus Christ, or are they to seek justification through obedience to Jewish rituals, including separation from Gentiles?
If the latter is true, then Jesus has been promoting sin. Jesus taught that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out of him. He taught that all things are clean. He taught that you could be saved just by believing. Peter, by his actions, has been implying that Jesus was wrong. By his actions, Peter has been condemning Jesus. Jesus taught that the separation of Jew and Gentile was now invalid. He broke down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.
But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall. (Ephesians 2:13-14).
The work of Jesus was to bring the Jew and the Gentile into one body — the body of Christ. This means that there is to be no more separation between Jew or Gentile. Now Paul says, "Peter, you are going to have to make up your mind. Either Jesus was right and it is okay to eat with Gentiles or else He was wrong and He is guilty of leading us into sin."

Evidence of Peter's Transgression: For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor (2:18).
If Paul or Peter or any other Jewish Christian seeks to rebuild the legalistic system which he did away with when he was saved, then he is showing by his actions that he is a transgressor. He is either a transgressor for having torn the system down in the first place, or he is now a transgressor for trying to rebuild what he once tore down. In either case, he is showing that he has sinned. The point is obvious. Paul is saying in effect, "You are guilty of transgression, Peter. The only question is when did you do it? Did you do it when you first followed Jesus and set aside the ritualistic system of Judaism, or did you sin just now when you stopped eating with Gentiles?
For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God.
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.
I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. (Galatians 2:19-21).
If there was ever a man who might have been justified through the keeping of the Law, it would have been Paul. He had been circumcised on the eighth day according to the Law. He had become a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He was a Jew held to literal interpretation of the Scriptures. He had been trained in the school of Gamaliel. He had been zealous in his legalism. And yet, the only thing that Paul ever got from the Law was condemnation and death. The very Law that he struggled to keep condemned him because he was unable to keep it perfectly. The penalty for not keeping the Law perfectly is death. The Law condemned Paul to death. Christ is our deliverance from the penalty of the law.

Thank you for such a detailed reply. It would only be courteous for me to give you my opionion of those verses, in response to your post

I use the NIV version, but I doubt that will at all seem to change the gist of what is being meant

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin?

I disagree with you that this only refers to the ceremonial laws. It goes to the heart of man and the heart of the Gospel message.

To Paul we are justified by faith apart from observing the law
Rom 3:28

Our obediance is by faith
Rom 1:5

Our only righteousness is faith
Rom 1:17

Paul is speaking of a new convert seeking to be justified in Christ, but why would Paul ask the question
Does Christ promote sin?

Well to Paul we are justified by faith in Christ, not our own personal goodness and our obediance and victory is by faith in Christ too. We stand by faith, not obediance to the law.

'While we were yet without strength Christ died for ther ungodly
Rpom 5:6

The new convert is weak and without strength, they need time to grow by faith in Christ

When someone accepts Christ into their life much sin they can themselves stop,. but what of the deep rooted sin in their life that they cannot deal with and have no strength to stand against? The new convert will find victory(obediance) by faith in Christ, but it takes time.

Therefore to Paul the new convert stands by faith in Christ and rejoices in this, despite the obvious sin still in their life that desperately needs dealing with. I am speaking of glaring sin that most in church would consider unacceptable for a person to be saved.
So a new convert goes to church and rejoices in their salvation, they are standing by faith in Christ, despite the obvious sin in their life that desperately needs dealing with

In these circumstances hence Paul's question
Does Christ promote sin? Would some Christians not possibly ask the same question(though maybe slightly rephrased)

I believe Paiul confirms this in the following verse

Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker

In other words. If I try and rid myself of my sin in order to be acceptable to God(be saved/must be according to the law) I will fail and simply prove I am a lawbreaker.

To Paul sin is not defeated by the individual striving to deafeat it in themselves, but by faith in Christ

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace(through faith)
Rom 6:14

Incidentally, Paul never differentiates between any parts of the law when he constantly stated the Christian is not under law

 

[zone]

But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. (Galatians 2:17-18)..

thank you Fester.
though grasping them, i had not yet considered those passages in such depth.
zonest.

 

[pickles]

Do you believe in the local assembly, that the Lord Jesus Christ has prepared for believers, is given to believers to hear the word of God preached and to be taught doctrine, to have fellowship and unity with members of Christ's body, so they can be exercised in their priesthood corporately, to train up disciples to go into the world and preach the gospel of Christ, to seek and win the lost and to do the work that God has ordained for that local assembly and to bring forth fruit unto God? And in all this they acknowledge and worship Jesus Christ as the head, they honor, obey and pray for those that God has put over them in the Lord and they are lead by the Holy Spirit in that local assembly to be a joint participate and give of their supply to be edified and built up with others as it edifies itself in the love of God, and to be faithful in that calling until the Lord comes back for the church.

OR... do you believe in being an independent individual believer that lives unto the Lord with their own understanding they get from the scriptures and through the Spirit that is not required by grace or through any instructions of the scriptures to honor the local assembly or those that God has raised up for the church to preach and teach the word and doctrine? Do you put Christ first and then your family and the local assembly last, providing you can trust that there is one available in your local area but as soon as you see something you don't like or agree with you run back and become critical of the local assembly?

We are to keep our eye upon Christ and serve Him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, but isn't he leading us through the Spirit to gather ourselves together unto Him with other believers that He has redeemed that we might have fellowship with Christ that lives in them? Doesn't each member of Christ's body have a supply of the Spirit that we need so that we can be filled with what we might lack and so that we can comprehend the many dimensions of the love of God? In the gospels we have the disciples and many others that gathered unto Christ daily to hear the word and after the gospels, don't we have the scriptures that testify and letters that have been written to the local churches and assemblies where believers gathered together with qualified men that were sent to preach and teach in Rome, Galatia Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, Thessalonica, including those in homes, the Jews that were scattered abroad and those local churches that were revealed in the Revelation given to John?

Why is it that we have so many believers today that profess the Lord Jesus Christ yet have no local assembly (a living organism made up of Christ's body, flesh and bones) to gather with others as they did in the book of Acts that led to the establishment of local assemblies where ever God was adding to the church? Why have so many been critical of the local church and have decided to never be a part of one that they like to label as 'a building' or some 'organized church'. God has prepared a body for them but they will not recognize that body and do not take seriously through conviction that we are members one of another and of His body, flesh and bones. This very much puzzles me that believers think that they are in the will of God outside the local assembly, outside of what God has prepared for them and outside the dispensing of the word and doctrine of Christ that is given for worship and where the Holy Spirit is active in the corporate body and in the members of those that make up that corporate body.

Pickles, what is in your heart concerning these matters and is not the Christ that you seek to glorify living as the head of the body, does He not desire in His heart that we gather together as one body, did not He gather the disciples unto Himself and teach them as a body of believers and did He not send them out to do the same? We will not be gathered unto Him when we are taken up into heaven to be with Him? When we do not gather ourselves together in a local assembly of believers, we are not gathering ourselves unto Christ, the head, and we do not allow Jesus Christ to reveal Himself to us as the head. If Christ is not experiencially our head how can we say that we are led of His Spirit? Those that do not gather together scatter abroad. When you look at those who do not gather together unto Jesus Christ in the local assembly are they not an example of those that are scattered abroad? Could not this be considered complacency concerning the local assembly of the church and complacency toward the head of that church, CHRIST?

Red, Ill try to answer your questions here, but I struggle with cognitive dislexia.
Simple always is easyer for me.
You want me to say if this is the way, or it is this.
The only way I know is Jesus.
To often, one wants it to be only this, the orginised chruch, the church which is the body of believers, or the indivigual one's faith.
One has to see that all is decided and brought by God Our Father in Jesus according to His will and perpose.
The same is also given in the scriptures.
The literal, the scholors understanding and how it applies, those given the gift of knowladge, the understanding recieved in Jesus through the Holy Spirit to one's heart .
I know this may seem noncomital, but it isnt.
Its about what serves God in Jesus and is His glory.
Im not trying to say I have the answers, I dont.
I know only that it is in Jesus, obedient in faith to Him, that each of us is brought.
Some are called through the organised chruch, some through a body of believers, some quietly.
But all, is given and brought in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
Everything is from Him given to us to the Glory of God!
Everyday I see this is what one needs to do, this is what one needs to believe, this is the way.
Ive struggled many times with, am I as you ask me Jesus?
Many times Ive been overwhelmed by all the information, debates, accusations, bold statements of many here and in my life.
The organised church, the simple gathering of those in the body of Christ, the scriptures, and witness given throughout my life.
Everytime, it is faith in Jesus that brings peace.
Accepting in faith, God Our Father's love in Jesus, trying to love as Jesus told us too.
In humility, accepting God Our Fathers will, chastisement, guidence, care and love given and brought in Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
One might ask, how does one know for sure, if they walk in faith?
We all want that one scripture, word or church to tell us we are trully in Jesus and obedient.
I looked for this myself, the garrentee.
The only garrentee is Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
This does not mean one dissmisses anything, like scripture, church , body, obedience.
For Everything, is given and brought according to God's will and perpose and is valued.
All given in Jesus, through grace, bringing all that accept in faith His salvation, all willing to set ones self aside in humility and obedience to Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh, the guidence and gifts given through His Holy Spirit.
All to the Glory of God!!

I dont know the answers, one only knows that Jesus is our answer.

in Jesus, God bless.
pickles

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

I listened to a sermon today that said the people justify doing their sin in their hearts before committing it. Most who are sinning do not admit that it is a sin. It is not until the Holy Spirit convicts them that they repent and are healed by God's forgiveness.

Some are they are self justified and do not listen to correction or the chastening of God when they hear it because they tell the Holy Spirit that its demonic. That is why so many people open themselves up to attack by unseen forces. For we do not battle against people but against unseen forces of darkness in high places and in our own lives.

Isaiah 59:17
For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, And was clad with zeal as a cloak.

Ephesians 6:16-18 (New King James Version)

16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

1 Thessalonians 5:7-9 (New King James Version)

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Peace of the Lord be with you.

Two thumbs up!

I've heard numerous preachers teach that when a "believer" feels guilty for past sin, it's not conviction they are feeling but rather condemnation from the enemy and that they should embrace God's grace without ever humbling themselves before the Lord in repentance. That is not what the bible preaches at all. In fact, it's nothing more than religious pride.

 

[Red33]

Red, Ill try to answer your questions here, but I struggle with cognitive dislexia.
Simple always is easyer for me.
You want me to say if this is the way, or it is this.
The only way I know is Jesus.
To often, one wants it to be only this, the orginised chruch, the church which is the body of believers, or the indivigual one's faith.
One has to see that all is decided and brought by God Our Father in Jesus according to His will and perpose.
The same is also given in the scriptures.
The literal, the scholors understanding and how it applies, those given the gift of knowladge, the understanding recieved in Jesus through the Holy Spirit to one's heart .
I know this may seem noncomital, but it isnt.
Its about what serves God in Jesus and is His glory.
Im not trying to say I have the answers, I dont.
I know only that it is in Jesus, obedient in faith to Him, that each of us is brought.
Some are called through the organised chruch, some through a body of believers, some quietly.
But all, is given and brought in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
Everything is from Him given to us to the Glory of God!
Everyday I see this is what one needs to do, this is what one needs to believe, this is the way.
Ive struggled many times with, am I as you ask me Jesus?
Many times Ive been overwhelmed by all the information, debates, accusations, bold statements of many here and in my life.
The organised church, the simple gathering of those in the body of Christ, the scriptures, and witness given throughout my life.
Everytime, it is faith in Jesus that brings peace.
Accepting in faith, God Our Father's love in Jesus, trying to love as Jesus told us too.
In humility, accepting God Our Fathers will, chastisement, guidence, care and love given and brought in Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
One might ask, how does one know for sure, if they walk in faith?
We all want that one scripture, word or church to tell us we are trully in Jesus and obedient.
I looked for this myself, the garrentee.
The only garrentee is Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
This does not mean one dissmisses anything, like scripture, church , body, obedience.
For Everything, is given and brought according to God's will and perpose and is valued.
All given in Jesus, through grace, bringing all that accept in faith His salvation, all willing to set ones self aside in humility and obedience to Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh, the guidence and gifts given through His Holy Spirit.
All to the Glory of God!!

I dont know the answers, one only knows that Jesus is our answer.

in Jesus, God bless.
pickles

Thank you for your loving and gracious answer. May you always have God's great peace in your heart.

red33

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Two thumbs up!

I've heard numerous preachers teach that when a "believer" feels guilty for past sin, it's not conviction they are feeling but rather condemnation from the enemy and that they should embrace God's grace without ever humbling themselves before the Lord in repentance. That is not what the bible preaches at all. In fact, it's nothing more than religious pride.

Conviction is precisely the means in which the Holy Spirit uses to show us areas in our lives that God may not be pleased with that we may not have ever realized before. This is how He conforms us into the image of His Son. This is the process of sanctification.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Thank you for such a detailed reply. It would only be courteous for me to give you my opionion of those verses, in response to your post

I use the NIV version, but I doubt that will at all seem to change the gist of what is being meant

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin?

I disagree with you that this only refers to the ceremonial laws. It goes to the heart of man and the heart of the Gospel message.

To Paul we are justified by faith apart from observing the law
Rom 3:28

Our obediance is by faith
Rom 1:5

Our only righteousness is faith
Rom 1:17

Paul is speaking of a new convert seeking to be justified in Christ, but why would Paul ask the question
Does Christ promote sin?

Well to Paul we are justified by faith in Christ, not our own personal goodness and our obediance and victory is by faith in Christ too. We stand by faith, not obediance to the law.

'While we were yet without strength Christ died for ther ungodly
Rpom 5:6

The new convert is weak and without strength, they need time to grow by faith in Christ

When someone accepts Christ into their life much sin they can themselves stop,. but what of the deep rooted sin in their life that they cannot deal with and have no strength to stand against? The new convert will find victory(obediance) by faith in Christ, but it takes time.

Therefore to Paul the new convert stands by faith in Christ and rejoices in this, despite the obvious sin still in their life that desperately needs dealing with. I am speaking of glaring sin that most in church would consider unacceptable for a person to be saved.
So a new convert goes to church and rejoices in their salvation, they are standing by faith in Christ, despite the obvious sin in their life that desperately needs dealing with

In these circumstances hence Paul's question
Does Christ promote sin? Would some Christians not possibly ask the same question(though maybe slightly rephrased)

I believe Paiul confirms this in the following verse

Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker

In other words. If I try and rid myself of my sin in order to be acceptable to God(be saved/must be according to the law) I will fail and simply prove I am a lawbreaker.

To Paul sin is not defeated by the individual striving to deafeat it in themselves, but by faith in Christ

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace(through faith)
Rom 6:14

Incidentally, Paul never differentiates between any parts of the law when he constantly stated the Christian is not under law

Agreed. I have learned that my worst enemy in this life is not the devil, but rather I am my own worst enemy. How can I overcome the sin in my life when it is I who desires to fulfill the lusts of my flesh in the first place? I can't for I am helpless in and of my strength to defeat myself.

However, if I am truly saved then the battle has already fought for me. It is through Jesus' finished work on the cross that I have been forgiven of past sin and it is through the indwelling Christ, that I delivered from present and future sin for I find my peace, my joy, my satisfaction in Him who gave His life for me thus it is no longer I (the flesh) who lives but Christ in me.

By no means do I advocate that a person can be free from sin while still enslaved by sin. Rather, I believe that when we come to a point where we find our satisfaction in Him, the desires of the flesh lose the power over us.

 

[livingbygrace]

Agreed. I have learned that my worst enemy in this life is not the devil, but rather I am my own worst enemy. How can I overcome the sin in my life when it is I who desires to fulfill the lusts of my flesh in the first place? I can't for I am helpless in and of my strength to defeat myself.

However, if I am truly saved then the battle has already fought for me. It is through Jesus' finished work on the cross that I have been forgiven of past sin and it is through the indwelling Christ, that I delivered from present and future sin for I find my peace, my joy, my satisfaction in Him who gave His life for me thus it is no longer I (the flesh) who lives but Christ in me.

Yes, there is a narrow gate, the true and narrow way

The Christian knows(or needs to know) that they are saved and secure with God by faith in Christ, they have to look away from the sin and have faith in Christ to give them victory through the spirit, it is when they in their heart know that they are secure with God, without having to strive to be good enough that sin starts to lose its power in their life
The power of sin is the law 1 Cor 15:56

For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom 6:14

All the new convert can do is cling to Christ and trust him, never shifting from knowing they are saved by faith in what he did for them on the cross, for they at this stage are yet without strength
Rom 5:6
They have to resist that voice that tells them they are too much of a sinner to be saved
Too unworthy due to their glasing imperfections

But as time goes on by faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit's working in a life the person becomes stronger in the faith, they see by faith in Christ much victory over sin. They become meat eaters no longer milk drinkers.
Then they are expected to stand and resist temptations still by looking to Christ, for they are now much stronger in the faith.


Sometimes they will inevitably fall, but there will be steady improvement seen in their Christian walk.
Christianity is a progression if you like, but many err in both directions

Many churches do not preach the truth of grace, but rather a works/ law based in effect Christianity
And then others say

Well it does not matter how you act, you are saved by grace through faith

It is that narrow road which truly leads to victory and life

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Yes, there is a narrow gate, the true and narrow way

The Christian knows(or needs to know) that they are saved and secure with God by faith in Christ, they have to look away from the sin and have faith in Christ to give them victory through the spirit, it is when they in their heart know that they are secure with God, without having to strive to be good enough that sin starts to lose its power in their life
The power of sin is the law 1 Cor 15:56

For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom 6:14

All the new convert can do is cling to Christ and trust him, never shifting from knowing they are saved by faith in what he did for them on the cross, for they at this stage are yet without strength
Rom 5:6
They have to resist that voice that tells them they are too much of a sinner to be saved
Too unworthy due to their glasing imperfections

But as time goes on by faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit's working in a life the person becomes stronger in the faith, they see by faith in Christ much victory over sin. They become meat eaters no longer milk drinkers.
Then they are expected to stand and resist temptations still by looking to Christ, for they are now much stronger in the faith.


Sometimes they will inevitably fall, but there will be steady improvement seen in their Christian walk.
Christianity is a progression if you like, but many err in both directions

Many churches do not preach the truth of grace, but rather a works/ law based in effect Christianity
And then others say

Well it does not matter how you act, you are saved by grace through faith

It is that narrow road which truly leads to victory and life

2 Peter 1:3-4 "3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."

 

[Red33]

If a believer, who has truly been saved by the grace of God as a sinner, gets involved some sin, what is God's attitude toward that believer? Has God's attitude changed toward the believer in any way because of his sin? Does God still see him as being perfect and righteous before Him? Is that believer still justified before God through the blood of Christ? Has that believer lost God's perfect righteousness that was imputed to him by grace when he believed? Did the believer's sin do something to change the way that God looks at him? When the believer sins does God respond like this...

'Look, there's sin in this believer's life and I have to cut off my fellowship with him because I can have no fellowship with sin'. Is this how the justice of God works or does God look upon the work of the Son and respond like this...

'I will have mercy and not sacrifice (Mt 9:13). I will not deal with them according to his sins (Ps 103:10). When sin abounds my grace will abound much more' (Rom 5:20).

When God makes grace abound toward the believer who is involved in sin, He does that, not so the believer continues in sin, GOD FORBID, but that the believer will realize that they have been crucified with Christ and they are dead to sin, so why live in sin any longer because you have been freed from sin. When the believer hears that kind of grace abounding toward them with no condemnation, and they may have to hear it (100) times, but when they hear it, that grace has given them a capacity to turn from the sin that they have been freed from.

Their repentance or turning from sin is based upon the grace that abounded toward them by God in response to their sin and did not judge them according to their sin. God can do this because His Son was judged for this believer's sin and can not be judged again for the same sin, whether in the past, present or future. ALL sin was judged by Christ through death on the cross. Repentance is the peaceable fruit of righteousness that is given to them by the work of God's grace super abundantly abounding toward the believer.

Everytime a believer sins we are to not only think in terms of grace but we must act toward them in terms of grace and understand that God is interested in restoring them and not condemn them for their sin. This can only take place through a super abundance of grace and not other way. This is the way God saved us and it is the way that we are going to be restored and grow in our relationship with Him.

 

[AnandaHya]

If a believer, who has truly been saved by the grace of God as a sinner, gets involved some sin, what is God's attitude toward that believer? Has God's attitude changed toward the believer in any way because of his sin? Does God still see him as being perfect and righteous before Him? Is that believer still justified before God through the blood of Christ? Has that believer lost God's perfect righteousness that was imputed to him by grace when he believed? Did the believer's sin do something to change the way that God looks at him? When the believer sins does God respond like this...

What you stat is true Red in terms of a person's salvation. However when people sin then God is not able to use them and lead them to works of righteousness and give them everything HE has planned for them. INSTEAD when people sin God CORRECTS and Chastens them. Which is NOT PLEASANT. Even Paul tells us this.

I think he speaks from personal experience because he says he was a sinner to and must resist it as well for the Flesh and Spirit war against each other.

therefore you will be tested and if you fail you will be chastened, if you pass then God can lead you into a closer walk with HIM.

Hebrews 12:5-11 (New King James Version)

5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”[a]

7 If[b] you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[oncemore]

I guess if the devil would read this thread he would LOOOOOOL THAT THE CHRISTIANS ARE FIGHT EACH OTHER!

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

I guess if the devil would read this thread he would LOOOOOOL THAT THE CHRISTIANS ARE FIGHT EACH OTHER!

Here's the thing OnceMore, considering the bible talks wheat and tares and how God allows both to grow together so that the wheat might mature, how do we know that everyone involved in the discussion is truly saved? Could it be that some, those who allow themselves to be overcome by the flesh and belittle others, are nothing more than religious?