Assurance of salvation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#21
Romans 8:29,30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Right, they were predestined to be conformed, not to be saved. And those he predestined, he also called. But....
Matthew 22:14 ....many are called, but few are chosen.
Called to do what ? chosen for what ? always ask that every time you see the word 'elect' ,chosen , called . its never to BE saved ,or to salvation. its to do something ect .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#22
Chapter 18: Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
The 1647 Westminster Confession of Faith

1. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and estate of salvation,a which hope of theirs shall perish:b yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace,c and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.d


a. Deut 29:19; Job 8:13-14; Micah 3:11; John 8:41. • b. Mat 7:22-23. • c. 1 John 2:3; 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 5:13. • d. Rom 5:2, 5.

2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope;a but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation,b the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made,c the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God:d which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.e

a. Heb 6:11, 19. • b. Heb 6:17-18. • c. 2 Cor 1:12; 2 Pet 1:4-5, 10-11; 1 John 2:3; 3:14. • d. Rom 8:15-16. • e. Eph 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:21-22.

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it:a yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.b And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure;c that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience,d the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.e

a. Psa 88 throughout; Psa 77:1-12; Isa 50:10; Mark 9:24; 1 John 5:13. • b. 1 Cor 2:12; Eph 3:17-19; Heb 6:11-12; 1 John 4:13. • c. 2 Pet 1:10. • d. Rom 5:1-2, 5; 14:17; 15:13; Eph 1:3-4; Psa 4:6-7; 119:32. • e. Psa 130:4; Rom 6:1-2; 8:1, 12; 2 Cor 7:1; Titus 2:11-12, 14; 1 John 1:6-7; 2:1-2; 3:2-3.

4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God’s withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light:a yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived,b and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.c

a. Psa 31:22; 51:8, 12, 14; 77:1-10; 88 throughout; Song 5:2-3, 6; Isa 50:10; Mat 26:69-72; Eph 4:30-31. • b. Job 13:15; Psa 51:8, 12; 73:15; Isa 50:10; Luke 22:32; 1 John 3:9. • c. Psa 22:1; 88 throughout; Isa 54:7-10; Jer 32:40; Micah 7:7-9.​

~Deut
Does my post conflict with this confession ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#23
What does 2 John 5:13 mean then? Is it just a lie? Is the authors here just saying stuff?
Therefore in Calvinism, I can never have 100% assurance of salvation [I didn't say "eternal security", I said "assurance of salvation"].
 

DiscipleA

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
160
39
28
Northeast Pennsylvania USA
#25

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,266
3,606
113
67
#27
Which verse ? 2 john 5.13 ?
I believe that he meant,

1 John 5
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

~Deut
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
385
63
#28
This is how I understand the Perseverance of the elect in the TULIP.

If I am one of the elect, then I will persevere [by the grace of God, not of my own power] in a life of holiness, never ending up in unrepentant sin but ever confessing my sins and seeking to walk with God, until the time of my death.
But I haven't reached the time of my death yet, so I still have the potential, if I am not in fact of the elect but only think I am, of ending up in unrepentant sin. If I do end up in such a state and die, then I find out, finally, that I wasn't one of the elect to begin with, which is why I did not persevere.

Therefore, even though I think I'm one of the elect based on the fact that I believe the gospel and seek to please God and to strive against sin and confess it, I can never be 100% sure that I am an elect, until I die in a state of perseverance.

Therefore in Calvinism, I can never have 100% assurance of salvation [I didn't say "eternal security", I said "assurance of salvation"].

Is my understanding correct? If not, please explain why not. Thanks

( borrowed from a post ,someone I know)
Keep crying out for repentance and faith, if given you'll know. For whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#29
Keep crying out for repentance and faith, if given you'll know. For whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Predestined for what ?
 

DiscipleA

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
160
39
28
Northeast Pennsylvania USA
#30
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,791
13,146
113
#31
Is my understanding correct? If not, please explain why not. Thanks
Once again, you need to go by what is in the Westminster Confession of Faith. Therefore your understanding is dangerously flawed. Calvinists believe in the absolute assurance of salvation (as do many other Christians).

ASSURANCE OF SALVATION
Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation

I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God,which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.

III. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties, before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
#32
Hello DiscipleA, both Ananias and Sapphira "lied" to the Holy Spirit (which is not a good idea, to say the least, but lying to Him and blaspheming Him/speaking against Him/knowingly lying about Him, and thereby committing the unpardonable sin, are two very different things).

We do not know what happened to them, of course, but I suspect that the Lord struck them dead and took them home because they had so highly compromised their future witness to the fledgling 1st Century church, and as members of it.

~Deut
Scripture states your (Suspect) is wrong.

Revelation 21:7-8KJV
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 

DiscipleA

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
160
39
28
Northeast Pennsylvania USA
#33
It's like running in a race. You work hard to get farther ahead and by the time you get close to the finish line you're way ahead and you pretty much know you got this.

Likewise if we work hard to grow spiritually and keep our faith strong, when we can see that the time for our departure is near, we'll be more assured of our salvation.

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,266
3,606
113
67
#34
Does my post conflict with this confession ?
Well, let's see :unsure:

If I am one of the elect, then I will persevere [by the grace of God, not of my own power] in a life of holiness, never ending up in unrepentant sin but ever confessing my sins and seeking to walk with God, until the time of my death.
"They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved ... Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein." ~excerpt from Chpt 17: Of the Perseverance of the Saints

I haven't reached the time of my death yet, so I still have the potential, if I am not of the elect but only think I am, of ending up in unrepentant sin. If I do end up in such a state and die, then I find out, finally, that I wasn't one of the elect to begin with, which is why I did not persevere.
If you are "not of the elect", then both living in and ending up in "unrepentant sin" is not a potential fact of life for you, rather, it's the reality of your life, because you never will repent and be saved.

Therefore, even though I think I'm one of the elect based on the fact that I believe the gospel and seek to please God and to strive against sin and confess it, I can never be 100% sure that I am an elect, until I die in a state of perseverance. Therefore in Calvinism, I can never have 100% assurance of salvation.
Whether it's Calvinism or Arminianism (or any other systematic theology), the sense that we have of our own "assurance" can be fleeting (due to the condition of our walk in the moment). Quite frankly, I do not believe that 100% assurance is possible on this side of the grave, though something close to that certainly is :)

~Deut
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,266
3,606
113
67
#35
Scripture states your (Suspect) is wrong. Revelation 21:7-8KJV
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Hello Truth7t7, sadly, as believers, we still sin (because we are not yet fully sanctified on this side of the grave) but, PTL, we (as believers) no longer live in sin, nor our lives defined by our sin. If continuing to sin at times (not live in sin like we used to) always results in damnation for the believer, I'm afraid that no one will make it to the New Earth.

And as St. Paul told us, "such were some of you" :) (see below).

~Deut

1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
#36
Hello Truth7t7, sadly, as believers, we still sin (because we are not yet fully sanctified on this side of the grave) but, PTL, we (as believers) no longer live in sin, nor our lives defined by our sin. If continuing to sin (not live in sin) always results in damnation for the believer, no one will make it to the New Earth.

As St. Paul told us, "such were some of you" :) (see below).

~Deut

1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
I fully agree we are sinners compared to God's Holiness, we are to seek righteousness and forgiveness daily

However Annanias & Saphira didnt make it to the asking for forgiveness part of the equation?

I guess lying to God The Holy Spirit holds (Grave) consequences?

1 John 2:1-2KJV
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Acts 5:1-10KJV
5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
 
#37
This is how I understand the Perseverance of the elect in the TULIP.

If I am one of the elect, then I will persevere [by the grace of God, not of my own power] in a life of holiness, never ending up in unrepentant sin but ever confessing my sins and seeking to walk with God, until the time of my death.
But I haven't reached the time of my death yet, so I still have the potential, if I am not in fact of the elect but only think I am, of ending up in unrepentant sin. If I do end up in such a state and die, then I find out, finally, that I wasn't one of the elect to begin with, which is why I did not persevere.

Therefore, even though I think I'm one of the elect based on the fact that I believe the gospel and seek to please God and to strive against sin and confess it, I can never be 100% sure that I am an elect, until I die in a state of perseverance.

Therefore in Calvinism, I can never have 100% assurance of salvation [I didn't say "eternal security", I said "assurance of salvation"].

Is my understanding correct? If not, please explain why not. Thanks

( borrowed from a post ,someone I know)
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,266
3,606
113
67
#38
I fully agree we are sinners compared to God's Holiness, we are to seek righteousness and forgiveness daily. However Annanias & Saphira didnt make it to the asking for forgiveness part of the equation? I guess lying to God The Holy Spirit holds (Grave) consequences?
Hello again Truth7t7, there can be no doubt that lying to the HS is a HORRIBLE idea for any believer/at any time (of course, no one except a believer would lie to Him because unbelievers have nothing to do with Him), but I think that this business with Ananias and Sapphire was particularly concerning and heinous because it happened during the earliest days of church (when it was still being established).

As for the two of them not being able to repent before the Lord took their lives, we cannot know that they did not (that God did not give them the chance to do so), but even if He didn't, as believers, they still had Jesus as their Advocate (as you just pointed out for us above).

Question, if a true believer sins, but then dies suddenly (of a heart attack or in a car crash, for instance), and they had not yet repented of their most recent sin, do you believe that God will judge and condemn them to the Lake of Fire as a result :unsure:

Thanks :)

God bless you!

~Deut
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#40
Therefore in Calvinism, I can never have 100% assurance of salvation [I didn't say "eternal security", I said "assurance of salvation"].
I don't care what Calvin says. I care what the Bible says. Any conclusion we come to that contradicts what the Bible says is wrong. Regardless of what Calvin, or Augustine, or anyone else has to say about it.