"God loves everyone" - false
- Thread starter DBurrage
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
While I agree with some of the points you have made here, exception must be made for this statement: "It is the slavers and the powerful who abuse the poor that, if God hates anyone, God hates. The truly wicked who not only sin in ignorance but actively seek to destroy the beautiful creation He has made, and the Creator that made it."
The reason for my objection, is not that these things are not worthy of God's displeasure but His true hatred, goes out to those who are religionist. Those who set themselves up as teachers and lead many astray. These our Lord and others had the strongest language for. God hates those who twist and ignore the true meanings of His word. Those who deny His Sovereignty and pervert His Holiness.
The Lord never spoke out against the slavery of His day, or the rulers over Israel. Therefore, we can ascertain, our Lord was not overly concerned with the "Social injustices" of that age. His concern was for the eternal salvation of the soul.
But look at how He spoke towards Religionist....
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 6:2 When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
Mat 6:5 And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
Mat 12:34 Ye offspring of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 16:3-4 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Also, Mat.23:13-29
Mar 7:6-7 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
I believe that is enough to see my point.
The reason for my objection, is not that these things are not worthy of God's displeasure but His true hatred, goes out to those who are religionist. Those who set themselves up as teachers and lead many astray. These our Lord and others had the strongest language for. God hates those who twist and ignore the true meanings of His word. Those who deny His Sovereignty and pervert His Holiness.
The Lord never spoke out against the slavery of His day, or the rulers over Israel. Therefore, we can ascertain, our Lord was not overly concerned with the "Social injustices" of that age. His concern was for the eternal salvation of the soul.
But look at how He spoke towards Religionist....
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 6:2 When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
Mat 6:5 And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward.
Mat 12:34 Ye offspring of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 16:3-4 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Also, Mat.23:13-29
Mar 7:6-7 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
I believe that is enough to see my point.
The religionists were the slavers, they took His revelation which called for them to live justly and twisted it to enrich themselves and enslave the people. Consistently throughout Scripture when God's wrath is revealed it's linked with the abuse of the poor and the failure of Israel to live out His character in the world. Whether it be Amos, Obadiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, or any other prophet God's anger is intrinsically linked with the failure to live justly, and since His representation failed to properly represent Him He took the kingdom from them and gave it to those shut out.
-
1
- Show all
"DBurrage, posted
]Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau before Esau was even born, because Esau had inherited Adam’s hatred of God.
The story of Esau and Jacob as captured in Genesis is an interesting one. Understanding it in my view will help us understand why the saying, Esau I hate and Jacob I love as written in Malachai and St Paul's letter to the Romans
First, I believe God is omniscient. So, when He makes His dispositions, He makes them with the prescience of the future. It is not surprising then that He made proclamations about Esau and Jacob’s future before they were yet born or having done any good or evil.
I also believe that some stories of the scripture line up truths in symbolic languages and parables. Within these symbols and parables are the hidden treasures of truth. These treasures are hidden in this earthen vessels so that the excellence of the power of knowledge may be of God and not of us. On these premises lie my explanation below.
Sarah and Hagar’s story unveiled, in part, God’s plan or program of life on earth. In it, He showed man two distinct ways of life: one, to denounce and cast out as the evil way which leads to pain, sorrow and death and the other to embrace and cleave unto as the upright way which, in turn, leads to abundant blessings and eternal life. God continued to unfold this program with the symbolic story of Esau and Jacob. He used their lifestyles to describe the behavioral pattern or characteristic of each life path. Esau’s life path depicts the characteristics of the Material life (life after the flesh) while Jacob’s portrays the Spiritual life. Their manners differ greatly, each reflecting the different life paths and their resultant effects.
Esau was depicted as a profane person who, for a morsel of bread sold his birthright. His lifestyle shows
Lack of respect for God.
He placed no value on the things of God. By selling his birthright he severed all relationships with God and chose the material over the spiritual. Never in the story was it mentioned that he had any contact or relationship with God, because the flesh is an enemy of God and contrary to the law of God. Also, his heart’s desires and choice of actions led to the kind of blessings (inheritance) he received which blessings are material based, earthly and worldly. He received what he wanted and desired -- the material things of life which subordinate to the spiritual. It is said that fg he shall live by his strength and power and depend solely on the will of man and the will of the flesh for his survival. But the word of wisdom tells us that man can do nothing of his own without God and, moreover, man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. Therefore, even if he has all the material wealth in the world, he will always be in lack of the essence of life which brings a blissful life of happiness, joy, peace, rest of mind, and eternal life. He will not have true happiness. He will end up living a miserable life, though his physical appearance may show otherwise because the world he lives in is a master masquerader
We notice that, part of his blessings was that he shall be subservient to his brother Jacob and by his sword he shall live. And when he will have dominion, he shall break his brother’s yoke from off his neck. It is true that the flesh struggles continually with the spirit to have preeminence in our lives and when we dance to its tune, it dominates and enslaves us to bring forth its fruits in form of wickedness, hatred, anger fighting, wars, violence, robbery, greed, alcoholism, drug addiction, envy, jealousy, murders, adultery, idolatry, fornication, faithlessness, fear, worry, pain, sorrow, suicide, disobedience, hardened heart, self-will, and self - centeredness, terrorism, drunkenness, corruption, and the like.
The Scripture tells us that the desires and aspirations of the flesh are always in conflict with the desires of the Spirit. Their principles are opposed and in contrary to one another (Galatians 5:17). The flesh tends to keep us in bondage as slaves under the elements of the world and by so doing, it corrupts and hardens the heart to an unrepentant end. To guard against the will of the flesh, we should be wary of its sword which is three fold, namely,
Lust
Its sole existence is to ignite and gratify our sensual appetites. It entices and arouses our physical senses exceedingly to fulfill the desires of the flesh. When Esau was faced with the lust of the flesh, he felt he would die if his feeling of hunger was not assuaged at the moment and he went ahead to sell his birthright for a morsel of bread. As it is said, he despised his spiritual identity, became a servant and lost his rightful heritage.
Lust is the strongest sword used by the flesh and is of three types --- Lust of the flesh; lust of the eyes and pride of life which we must overcome in order to rule and have dominion over the flesh. St James said, every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and is enticed, then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death. Lust, by nature, is an inherent quality of the flesh and its active force. It lies always at the door of our heart and thought, beckoning to us to do its desire but it is our heritage to rule over it. If we yield our heritage to it, it overcomes and dominates us, causing pain, sorrow and eventual death.
Guile
It beguiles. It presents itself in an exciting and attractive but tricky manner to make us believe that taking its desired action benefits us immensely. It heightens our emotions towards a need that we become passionate, worried, fearful, nervous, unhappy and even angry if we do not get the need satisfied. If unchecked, this drives and pushes us to take whatsoever action we deem available, irrespective of its nature to get the desire fulfilled
Subtlety
It tricks in such a way that its motive is difficult to notice or discern with the physical senses since it works its way through the senses. It comes up with authoritative and seemingly concrete arguments and reasons why a desired action should be taken.
The sword of the flesh represents the sword of the devil. And we use the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, to fight and overcome it. Jesus fought off the devil’s temptations by the iconic words “it is written” and, with that, the devil left defeated because he could not withstand the strength of the Word. And the angels came and celebrated Jesus’ victory over the devil.
This is how to fight with the flesh but that is not all. The bible tells us to put on the whole armor of God that we may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, having our loins girt about with truth and having on the breastplate of righteousness, and our feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace. Above all, taking the shield of faith wherewith we shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked, and take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. Praying always with all prayer and supplications in the Spirit and watching thereunto with all perseverance. (Ephesians 6: 11; 13 – 18)
The belief that life is dependent on food or material things – on the creature rather than the Creator
Esau was hungry and faint. He feared that he would die because he believed his life was contingent upon food. He put his hope, confidence and trust in a material thing (food) and in man (Jacob) rather than in God. This reveals his lack of knowledge and understanding of God and lack of faith in Him. Food and other material goods give temporary sustenance to the body and add nothing to life for life is not about meat and drinks but about righteousness, peace and joy which reflect our true selfhood.
It is written, God is life and in Him we live and move and have our being. (Acts 17:28). We live by the grace and strength or power of God. God allows us to suffer hunger for material things sometimes to humble, chasten and prove us to know that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from His mouth. Our life’s focus and passion should be centered on God and not on material treasures. When we seek God first, all other things will be added unto us. Food does not make us who we are, neither do other material things, which only bloat our ego if allowed.
Lack of self-control
Temperance is a spiritual virtue which the flesh lacks. When the desires or will of the flesh or the will of man is not controlled or checkmated, it breeds lust and becomes dangerous. God expects us to have dominion and rule over the flesh. Every man which strives for mastery in this area must be temperate in all things. He must have control over his own will and not allow the winds of his fleshly desires drive him to destruction.
Loves self-preservation above all else.
When we are consumed with the thoughts of self, we fall prey to impulses of the flesh which are usually feelings of lust, sensuality and worldliness. To follow God, we must lose ourselves in Him
continues from the next thread
]Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau before Esau was even born, because Esau had inherited Adam’s hatred of God.
The story of Esau and Jacob as captured in Genesis is an interesting one. Understanding it in my view will help us understand why the saying, Esau I hate and Jacob I love as written in Malachai and St Paul's letter to the Romans
First, I believe God is omniscient. So, when He makes His dispositions, He makes them with the prescience of the future. It is not surprising then that He made proclamations about Esau and Jacob’s future before they were yet born or having done any good or evil.
I also believe that some stories of the scripture line up truths in symbolic languages and parables. Within these symbols and parables are the hidden treasures of truth. These treasures are hidden in this earthen vessels so that the excellence of the power of knowledge may be of God and not of us. On these premises lie my explanation below.
Sarah and Hagar’s story unveiled, in part, God’s plan or program of life on earth. In it, He showed man two distinct ways of life: one, to denounce and cast out as the evil way which leads to pain, sorrow and death and the other to embrace and cleave unto as the upright way which, in turn, leads to abundant blessings and eternal life. God continued to unfold this program with the symbolic story of Esau and Jacob. He used their lifestyles to describe the behavioral pattern or characteristic of each life path. Esau’s life path depicts the characteristics of the Material life (life after the flesh) while Jacob’s portrays the Spiritual life. Their manners differ greatly, each reflecting the different life paths and their resultant effects.
Esau was depicted as a profane person who, for a morsel of bread sold his birthright. His lifestyle shows
Lack of respect for God.
He placed no value on the things of God. By selling his birthright he severed all relationships with God and chose the material over the spiritual. Never in the story was it mentioned that he had any contact or relationship with God, because the flesh is an enemy of God and contrary to the law of God. Also, his heart’s desires and choice of actions led to the kind of blessings (inheritance) he received which blessings are material based, earthly and worldly. He received what he wanted and desired -- the material things of life which subordinate to the spiritual. It is said that fg he shall live by his strength and power and depend solely on the will of man and the will of the flesh for his survival. But the word of wisdom tells us that man can do nothing of his own without God and, moreover, man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. Therefore, even if he has all the material wealth in the world, he will always be in lack of the essence of life which brings a blissful life of happiness, joy, peace, rest of mind, and eternal life. He will not have true happiness. He will end up living a miserable life, though his physical appearance may show otherwise because the world he lives in is a master masquerader
We notice that, part of his blessings was that he shall be subservient to his brother Jacob and by his sword he shall live. And when he will have dominion, he shall break his brother’s yoke from off his neck. It is true that the flesh struggles continually with the spirit to have preeminence in our lives and when we dance to its tune, it dominates and enslaves us to bring forth its fruits in form of wickedness, hatred, anger fighting, wars, violence, robbery, greed, alcoholism, drug addiction, envy, jealousy, murders, adultery, idolatry, fornication, faithlessness, fear, worry, pain, sorrow, suicide, disobedience, hardened heart, self-will, and self - centeredness, terrorism, drunkenness, corruption, and the like.
The Scripture tells us that the desires and aspirations of the flesh are always in conflict with the desires of the Spirit. Their principles are opposed and in contrary to one another (Galatians 5:17). The flesh tends to keep us in bondage as slaves under the elements of the world and by so doing, it corrupts and hardens the heart to an unrepentant end. To guard against the will of the flesh, we should be wary of its sword which is three fold, namely,
Lust
Its sole existence is to ignite and gratify our sensual appetites. It entices and arouses our physical senses exceedingly to fulfill the desires of the flesh. When Esau was faced with the lust of the flesh, he felt he would die if his feeling of hunger was not assuaged at the moment and he went ahead to sell his birthright for a morsel of bread. As it is said, he despised his spiritual identity, became a servant and lost his rightful heritage.
Lust is the strongest sword used by the flesh and is of three types --- Lust of the flesh; lust of the eyes and pride of life which we must overcome in order to rule and have dominion over the flesh. St James said, every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and is enticed, then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death. Lust, by nature, is an inherent quality of the flesh and its active force. It lies always at the door of our heart and thought, beckoning to us to do its desire but it is our heritage to rule over it. If we yield our heritage to it, it overcomes and dominates us, causing pain, sorrow and eventual death.
Guile
It beguiles. It presents itself in an exciting and attractive but tricky manner to make us believe that taking its desired action benefits us immensely. It heightens our emotions towards a need that we become passionate, worried, fearful, nervous, unhappy and even angry if we do not get the need satisfied. If unchecked, this drives and pushes us to take whatsoever action we deem available, irrespective of its nature to get the desire fulfilled
Subtlety
It tricks in such a way that its motive is difficult to notice or discern with the physical senses since it works its way through the senses. It comes up with authoritative and seemingly concrete arguments and reasons why a desired action should be taken.
The sword of the flesh represents the sword of the devil. And we use the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, to fight and overcome it. Jesus fought off the devil’s temptations by the iconic words “it is written” and, with that, the devil left defeated because he could not withstand the strength of the Word. And the angels came and celebrated Jesus’ victory over the devil.
This is how to fight with the flesh but that is not all. The bible tells us to put on the whole armor of God that we may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, having our loins girt about with truth and having on the breastplate of righteousness, and our feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace. Above all, taking the shield of faith wherewith we shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked, and take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. Praying always with all prayer and supplications in the Spirit and watching thereunto with all perseverance. (Ephesians 6: 11; 13 – 18)
The belief that life is dependent on food or material things – on the creature rather than the Creator
Esau was hungry and faint. He feared that he would die because he believed his life was contingent upon food. He put his hope, confidence and trust in a material thing (food) and in man (Jacob) rather than in God. This reveals his lack of knowledge and understanding of God and lack of faith in Him. Food and other material goods give temporary sustenance to the body and add nothing to life for life is not about meat and drinks but about righteousness, peace and joy which reflect our true selfhood.
It is written, God is life and in Him we live and move and have our being. (Acts 17:28). We live by the grace and strength or power of God. God allows us to suffer hunger for material things sometimes to humble, chasten and prove us to know that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from His mouth. Our life’s focus and passion should be centered on God and not on material treasures. When we seek God first, all other things will be added unto us. Food does not make us who we are, neither do other material things, which only bloat our ego if allowed.
Lack of self-control
Temperance is a spiritual virtue which the flesh lacks. When the desires or will of the flesh or the will of man is not controlled or checkmated, it breeds lust and becomes dangerous. God expects us to have dominion and rule over the flesh. Every man which strives for mastery in this area must be temperate in all things. He must have control over his own will and not allow the winds of his fleshly desires drive him to destruction.
Loves self-preservation above all else.
When we are consumed with the thoughts of self, we fall prey to impulses of the flesh which are usually feelings of lust, sensuality and worldliness. To follow God, we must lose ourselves in Him
continues from the next thread
Continues from the previous thread
Unrepentant and hardened heart.
Esau was shown as wicked, full of hatred and has no room for repentance in his heart. It is written, “For when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected because he found no place in his heart for repentance though he sought it with tears.” (Romans.12:17). When our heart is not right towards God, it stalls our blessings. This trait of his was seen throughout the lives of the Edomites who were his descendants to the extent that they refused Jacob’s descendants passage through their border. They feared not God just like Esau. It happens that when we are engrossed with feelings of the flesh, they manifest in an unwholesome manner and appetites that tend to harden the heart.
No sense of responsibility towards his actions – always blaming others for his woes and allowing his grudges to determine his actions.
Esau hated Jacob because he believed (albeit erroneously) that he deprived him of his rightful blessings, forgetting that for his lust and choice of action in selling his birthright to Jacob, he had lost any right of claim to whatsoever blessings attached to or inherent in the birthright. Because he blamed Jacob for his woes, his subsequent plot to murder him was motivated by that. His anger and hatred drove him to go against the wishes of his parents and commandment of God and he never regretted his actions. When we continue to blame others instead of taking responsibility for our actions, and forgiving those who offend us, we tend towards the wrong path.
No personal relationship with God.
We have said that there is nowhere in the scripture where Esau was seen having a conversation with God or calling on His name or doing anything for God or in the presence of God. He was never prayerful and has no fear of God before his eyes. The scripture tells us that the flesh only minds the things of the flesh and therefore they that are in the flesh; that live after the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:4-8), nor inherit the kingdom of God.
Compared to the case of Jacob, there are marked differences between the two characters. Though Jacob also loved and walked after the flesh, the major differences between him and Esau are that:
Jacob had a solid relationship with God.
He had respect for God and loved being in His presence as he constantly built altars for the Lord God. He was prayerful and spiritual. Whenever he faced problems, he dealt with them humbly and sought God’s help in prayer. Because he had this relationship with God, he was guided in the right path.
Jacob had enormous faith in God
He believed every word God spoke to him knowing that victory comes through faith in God and obedience to his words rather than through one’s strength, military might, numerical superiority or material possessions. One with God is majority.
Jacob recognized his fault and offence committed and sought for forgiveness and reconciliation:
He repented of his sinful actions and turned a new leaf. He fought off his old self which was beset with the filthiness of the flesh and was turned into a new man, a new creature, a rebirth that changed his name to Israel (from one man to a nation) and his fortune from nothing to abundance. He did this by choosing to walk with God on the spiritual path as he tenaciously cleaved unto Him by faith and God redeemed him from all his guile and sinful ways and gave him a new outlook in life. He became renewed in the spirit and his life became all about God. He sought God with all his heart and found Him.
When we walk on the path of righteousness, we live by the blessings of God. Our strength become ‘powered’ by His Spirit. When we move away from this lane into the material path, we give away our birthright and the blessings inherent in it. God’s blessings are spread along the righteous path and fall on him that has his birthright intact. We recall that Isaac, in his mind was blessing Esau his first son but because he has given away his birthright by choosing to follow the material path, the blessing fell on Jacob who now has the birthright. Though, Jacob suffered for his deceit by becoming a servant in his in-law’s house for more years than he purposed, after his in- law had supplanted him several times, his heart was open to and right with God, as a result, God rescued him from all his afflictions and gave him a name beyond imagination and he died a happy old man.
It is written, Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated ( Malachai 1:3, Romans 9:13). We might ask why? It is because Jacob chose the spiritual path and walked with God in faith as his character in the story shows. In the same vein, whosoever that walks on that path, God loves and he, in turn reaps the spiritual blessings inherent in the path. And whosoever that chooses and walks the material or worldly path, he reaps the consequences of his actions. God laid for us two paths of life on earth and His expectation from us. He loves the path chosen by Jacob and hates the path chosen by Esau. It is not about their personality but the choices and actions that formed that personality. The scripture says, I have set before you, life and death; blessings and cursing, therefore choose life that both you and your seed may live. Cleave unto God for He is your life and the length of your days. (Deuteronomy 30:19 – 20). As we have noted, Jacob’s life path leads to life eternal and Esau’s to death.
Culled from the book -- Solving the Matrix of Being: Understanding who we are in relation to God Almighty. Amazon ebook and paperback.
Unrepentant and hardened heart.
Esau was shown as wicked, full of hatred and has no room for repentance in his heart. It is written, “For when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected because he found no place in his heart for repentance though he sought it with tears.” (Romans.12:17). When our heart is not right towards God, it stalls our blessings. This trait of his was seen throughout the lives of the Edomites who were his descendants to the extent that they refused Jacob’s descendants passage through their border. They feared not God just like Esau. It happens that when we are engrossed with feelings of the flesh, they manifest in an unwholesome manner and appetites that tend to harden the heart.
No sense of responsibility towards his actions – always blaming others for his woes and allowing his grudges to determine his actions.
Esau hated Jacob because he believed (albeit erroneously) that he deprived him of his rightful blessings, forgetting that for his lust and choice of action in selling his birthright to Jacob, he had lost any right of claim to whatsoever blessings attached to or inherent in the birthright. Because he blamed Jacob for his woes, his subsequent plot to murder him was motivated by that. His anger and hatred drove him to go against the wishes of his parents and commandment of God and he never regretted his actions. When we continue to blame others instead of taking responsibility for our actions, and forgiving those who offend us, we tend towards the wrong path.
No personal relationship with God.
We have said that there is nowhere in the scripture where Esau was seen having a conversation with God or calling on His name or doing anything for God or in the presence of God. He was never prayerful and has no fear of God before his eyes. The scripture tells us that the flesh only minds the things of the flesh and therefore they that are in the flesh; that live after the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:4-8), nor inherit the kingdom of God.
Compared to the case of Jacob, there are marked differences between the two characters. Though Jacob also loved and walked after the flesh, the major differences between him and Esau are that:
Jacob had a solid relationship with God.
He had respect for God and loved being in His presence as he constantly built altars for the Lord God. He was prayerful and spiritual. Whenever he faced problems, he dealt with them humbly and sought God’s help in prayer. Because he had this relationship with God, he was guided in the right path.
Jacob had enormous faith in God
He believed every word God spoke to him knowing that victory comes through faith in God and obedience to his words rather than through one’s strength, military might, numerical superiority or material possessions. One with God is majority.
Jacob recognized his fault and offence committed and sought for forgiveness and reconciliation:
He repented of his sinful actions and turned a new leaf. He fought off his old self which was beset with the filthiness of the flesh and was turned into a new man, a new creature, a rebirth that changed his name to Israel (from one man to a nation) and his fortune from nothing to abundance. He did this by choosing to walk with God on the spiritual path as he tenaciously cleaved unto Him by faith and God redeemed him from all his guile and sinful ways and gave him a new outlook in life. He became renewed in the spirit and his life became all about God. He sought God with all his heart and found Him.
When we walk on the path of righteousness, we live by the blessings of God. Our strength become ‘powered’ by His Spirit. When we move away from this lane into the material path, we give away our birthright and the blessings inherent in it. God’s blessings are spread along the righteous path and fall on him that has his birthright intact. We recall that Isaac, in his mind was blessing Esau his first son but because he has given away his birthright by choosing to follow the material path, the blessing fell on Jacob who now has the birthright. Though, Jacob suffered for his deceit by becoming a servant in his in-law’s house for more years than he purposed, after his in- law had supplanted him several times, his heart was open to and right with God, as a result, God rescued him from all his afflictions and gave him a name beyond imagination and he died a happy old man.
It is written, Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated ( Malachai 1:3, Romans 9:13). We might ask why? It is because Jacob chose the spiritual path and walked with God in faith as his character in the story shows. In the same vein, whosoever that walks on that path, God loves and he, in turn reaps the spiritual blessings inherent in the path. And whosoever that chooses and walks the material or worldly path, he reaps the consequences of his actions. God laid for us two paths of life on earth and His expectation from us. He loves the path chosen by Jacob and hates the path chosen by Esau. It is not about their personality but the choices and actions that formed that personality. The scripture says, I have set before you, life and death; blessings and cursing, therefore choose life that both you and your seed may live. Cleave unto God for He is your life and the length of your days. (Deuteronomy 30:19 – 20). As we have noted, Jacob’s life path leads to life eternal and Esau’s to death.
Culled from the book -- Solving the Matrix of Being: Understanding who we are in relation to God Almighty. Amazon ebook and paperback.
I truly appreciate the time and effort it took to put together something worth reading. I enjoyed many of the points made in this post. It was going along quite well, until it got to here:
Quote, " It is because Jacob chose the spiritual path and walked with God in faith as his character in the story shows. In the same vein, whosoever that walks on that path, God loves and he, in turn reaps the spiritual blessings inherent in the path. And whosoever that chooses and walks the material or worldly path, he reaps the consequences of his actions. God laid for us two paths of life on earth and His expectation from us. He loves the path chosen by Jacob and hates the path chosen by Esau. It is not about their personality but the choices and actions that formed that personality.
This conclusion, is completely contrary, to what Paul was writing. It is the reason he wrote what he did. To show, this was not the way it should be understood. This understanding makes God reactionary, to man's choices. Paul wanted us to see that God is acting not reacting.
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, (Who came with the promise? God came) and Sarah shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac--
Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom 9:12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
This view of choices being the reason why God said what He said. Not only goes contrary to Paul's intent but is contrary to the language clearly stated. "not yet born" and "having made no good or bad choices".
If it was about choices, then why did Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit say this?
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
If it was about choices, then man would have no reason to object to what was written. Obviously, the objection is being raised, because it is not about choices. It is about the purpose of God according to election.
If this is not what is being taught here, then I don't even understand the English language. To make it say something else, would require new meanings for these words.
Quote, " It is because Jacob chose the spiritual path and walked with God in faith as his character in the story shows. In the same vein, whosoever that walks on that path, God loves and he, in turn reaps the spiritual blessings inherent in the path. And whosoever that chooses and walks the material or worldly path, he reaps the consequences of his actions. God laid for us two paths of life on earth and His expectation from us. He loves the path chosen by Jacob and hates the path chosen by Esau. It is not about their personality but the choices and actions that formed that personality.
This conclusion, is completely contrary, to what Paul was writing. It is the reason he wrote what he did. To show, this was not the way it should be understood. This understanding makes God reactionary, to man's choices. Paul wanted us to see that God is acting not reacting.
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, (Who came with the promise? God came) and Sarah shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac--
Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom 9:12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
This view of choices being the reason why God said what He said. Not only goes contrary to Paul's intent but is contrary to the language clearly stated. "not yet born" and "having made no good or bad choices".
If it was about choices, then why did Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit say this?
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
If it was about choices, then man would have no reason to object to what was written. Obviously, the objection is being raised, because it is not about choices. It is about the purpose of God according to election.
If this is not what is being taught here, then I don't even understand the English language. To make it say something else, would require new meanings for these words.
Gotta disagree with your conclusion about Paul's reason for writing what he did. The entire book of Romans is a single argument about the Jews not being special because of their physical heritage and having been the repository for the law. It is with this argument in mind that the purpose of Romans 9 must be understood, which is not at all to do with God's action or reaction but with the position of the Jews and their displacement.
The argument about Jacob is to highlight that this situation did not catch God unaware, that the failure of the Jews to keep the law was not some kind of surprise but that God chose them to bear the law even knowing that they would not succeed in their mission and would ultimately reject Him.
Failing to account for the occasion upon which Paul is writing the Roman church distorts the arguments within and makes them rather disjointed rather than a single, flowing argument.
The argument about Jacob is to highlight that this situation did not catch God unaware, that the failure of the Jews to keep the law was not some kind of surprise but that God chose them to bear the law even knowing that they would not succeed in their mission and would ultimately reject Him.
Failing to account for the occasion upon which Paul is writing the Roman church distorts the arguments within and makes them rather disjointed rather than a single, flowing argument.
I think that I will, respectfully, have to disagree with you. The natural man, before he has been quickened, Eph 2, does not have the ability to discern spiritual things 1 Cor 2:14. The gospel is about spiritual things, and cannot be understood by the natural man, because he thinks them to be foolishness.
In order to keep the scriptures in harmony, the only way that the natural man can respond to a spiritual gospel is for God to quicken him to a new spiritual life, by putting his Holy Spirit within him. If God wanted all mankind to respond to the gospel he would quicken all mankind to a new spiritual life, and we know that would not harmonize the scriptures.
God would still be a just God, if he had let all mankind go to hell. By God's foreknowledge he saw that all mankind would not seek him, no, not one. Psalms 53:2-3. Because that no one would seek him, is the reason God, by his mercy, choose an elect people before he formed the world.
Whom the Lord loves, he chastens. Heb 12:6. Those that he does not chasten, he does not love, Psalms 73:5
The inspired word of God is not written to instruct the natural man how to get delivered eternally to heaven, but is written to his elect, instructing them as to how he wants them to live their lives, as they sojourn here on earth.
In order to keep the scriptures in harmony, the only way that the natural man can respond to a spiritual gospel is for God to quicken him to a new spiritual life, by putting his Holy Spirit within him. If God wanted all mankind to respond to the gospel he would quicken all mankind to a new spiritual life, and we know that would not harmonize the scriptures.
God would still be a just God, if he had let all mankind go to hell. By God's foreknowledge he saw that all mankind would not seek him, no, not one. Psalms 53:2-3. Because that no one would seek him, is the reason God, by his mercy, choose an elect people before he formed the world.
Whom the Lord loves, he chastens. Heb 12:6. Those that he does not chasten, he does not love, Psalms 73:5
The inspired word of God is not written to instruct the natural man how to get delivered eternally to heaven, but is written to his elect, instructing them as to how he wants them to live their lives, as they sojourn here on earth.
-
1
- Show all
It could be possible that you are misunderstanding the difference in being born again, and being converted. Being born again comes very suttle, as a gentle breeze that you don't know where it comes from or where it goes. Conversion follows some time later, after, as a babe in Christ, you have grown into maturity enough to understand the knowledge of God's righteousness.
I, personally, can not remember when I was born again, but have experienced the evidence of being born again at a very early age. I was 62 years old before I experienced conversion (coming unto a knowledge of the truth) and it, to me, was like the fourth of July fireworks. I was so excited that I just about drove everyone around me crazy trying to tell them how simple it was, knowing full well that they could not see it unless the Holy Spirit within them revealed it to them.
I, personally, can not remember when I was born again, but have experienced the evidence of being born again at a very early age. I was 62 years old before I experienced conversion (coming unto a knowledge of the truth) and it, to me, was like the fourth of July fireworks. I was so excited that I just about drove everyone around me crazy trying to tell them how simple it was, knowing full well that they could not see it unless the Holy Spirit within them revealed it to them.
"awelight, posted
I truly appreciate the time and effort it took to put together something worth reading. I enjoyed many of the points made in this post. It was going along quite well, until it got to here:
Quote, " It is because Jacob chose the spiritual path and walked with God in faith as his character in the story shows. In the same vein, whosoever that walks on that path, God loves and he, in turn reaps the spiritual blessings inherent in the path. And whosoever that chooses and walks the material or worldly path, he reaps the consequences of his actions. God laid for us two paths of life on earth and His expectation from us. He loves the path chosen by Jacob and hates the path chosen by Esau. It is not about their personality but the choices and actions that formed that personality.
This conclusion, is completely contrary, to what Paul was writing. It is the reason he wrote what he did. To show, this was not the way it should be understood. This understanding makes God reactionary, to man's choices. Paul wanted us to see that God is acting not reacting.
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, (Who came with the promise? God came) and Sarah shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac--
Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom 9:12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
This view of choices being the reason why God said what He said. Not only goes contrary to Paul's intent but is contrary to the language clearly stated. "not yet born" and "having made no good or bad choices".
If it was about choices, then why did Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit say this?
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
If it was about choices, then man would have no reason to object to what was written. Obviously, the objection is being raised, because it is not about choices. It is about the purpose of God according to election.
If this is not what is being taught here, then I don't even understand the English language. To make it say something else, would require new meanings for these words.
I believe the concluding part of my post is in line with St Paul's position in Romans as you quoted. Our understanding of it seems to differ.
The bible reveals to us that there are two paths of life on earth--- the life path of righteousness and the life path of ungodliness.
I believe that we are all children of God but the path we choose in life either of righteousness or unrighteousness differentiates us -- the good and the bad, the righteous and the unrighteous. Paul says they are not all Israel which are of Israel. Why? because there were people who were vehemently rejecting the way of God declared by our Lord Jesus Christ and taught by the apostles, who preferred to follow the life after the flesh. These people (not just the Jews) that live after the flesh, that follow the path of ungodliness are not the children of God except they repent. As you quoted, the children of God are the children of promise. And who are these? there are various ways to look at it from the scripture including Paul's angle but i will make my references from two angles which also agree with Paul's position. But first I need to say that in his letter, Paul was defending his gospel of faith and distinguishing or rather separating the life fashioned after the flesh from the life lived after the Spirit {2 paths of life}
We read in John 1:11 - 13, he came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name, which were born, not of blood nor of the will of man nor the will of the flesh but of God. Jesus tells us that those born of God are those that are born of water and of the Spirit, that is living the life after the Spirit through faith--the life of righteousness. We make the choice to believe or not to believe. I do not believe that God elects some people to believe and others not to believe and then goes ahead to punish or chasten the unbelievers. It is recorded that not all Israelites that came out of Egypt reached the promised land, some died in the wilderness because of unbelief. Is the bible telling us that these people were chosen by God to disobey Him? Why drive Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden if it were God that chose them to disobey his words. This line of election argument is really hard for me to swallow..
In Isaac shall your seed be called.
This has its root in the story of Sarah and her Hand maid Hagar. We are familiar with this story but for the benefit of those who are not, here is a recap of the story. Sarah, Abraham’s wife had a maid called Hagar and Sarah had difficulty conceiving a child. She gave Hagar to her husband to bear children for her. She conceived and bore him his first child called Ishmael. Once she became pregnant, she despised, taunted and disrespected Sarah. Eventually, Sarah conceived according to the promise of God and bore Isaac, Abraham’s second child. On the day Isaac was weaned, Sarah noticed that Ishmael was mocking Isaac and then told her husband Abraham, to send Hagar out of the house with her son. As expected, he was not happy with Sarah’s position on the matter but surprisingly God asked him to hearken to her and do as she has said for in Isaac shall his seed be called
The question mark is on how Ishmael was conceived in contrast to the conception of Isaac. It is about the choices Sarah and Abraham made in their childlessness. Sarah, who was hungry for a child and motivated by a sense of belonging to be called a mother; to conform to societal norms; to gain the respect of family, friends and society, and remove the reproach associated with her situation, yielded to her fleshly desires of getting her needs fulfilled by any means, even when the action negated the word of God. She succumbed to the will of the flesh and the will of man, which in turn gave birth to the flesh, which began to taunt and cause her pain and sorrow. This points us to the life after the flesh and the aftermath of it. It is written, “Those born of the flesh are flesh.” When we live the life of flesh, what we give “birth” to is the flesh and what we get is the pain of the flesh. We get the qualities inherent in the flesh which are never good.
This act of Sarah repeats itself in the world today in different forms, causing untold hardships and havoc in the lives of men and women. It must be made clear that there is nothing untoward in seeking to have our needs met but the process, the motivation and intention must be right and pure. And, this purity must be reflected in our thoughts, character and conduct. It all boils down to – when we are down or up, what choices do we make? Do we have faith in God and find our purpose or sense of belonging in Him or do we place our hope and faith in man and material elements of the world. (2 paths of life)
Isaac was born out of faith unlike Ismael. God promised and Abraham believed and saw the promises of God fulfilled in his life. Paul tells us that so it will be for anyone that follows the same line of faith, as he says, the just shall live by faith. It is written that the Son of God is come to give us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Jesus declared the way of truth/righteousness/eternal life to us. it is either we believe and follow him as he enjoins us or we follow the way after the flesh. it is a choice.
This freedom of choice was embedded in God's dealings with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God said to Adam, you can eat the fruit of all the trees of the garden including the tree of life but the fruit of the tree of good and evil you shall not eat for the day you eat of it you shall die (Genesis 2:16, 17). The latitude of freedom is within the sphere of the word of God, within His rules and regulations. Anything outside of it is vain and breeds vacuum
In my next thread I will address my views on Romans 9:10 - 14 as quoted in your post.
I truly appreciate the time and effort it took to put together something worth reading. I enjoyed many of the points made in this post. It was going along quite well, until it got to here:
Quote, " It is because Jacob chose the spiritual path and walked with God in faith as his character in the story shows. In the same vein, whosoever that walks on that path, God loves and he, in turn reaps the spiritual blessings inherent in the path. And whosoever that chooses and walks the material or worldly path, he reaps the consequences of his actions. God laid for us two paths of life on earth and His expectation from us. He loves the path chosen by Jacob and hates the path chosen by Esau. It is not about their personality but the choices and actions that formed that personality.
This conclusion, is completely contrary, to what Paul was writing. It is the reason he wrote what he did. To show, this was not the way it should be understood. This understanding makes God reactionary, to man's choices. Paul wanted us to see that God is acting not reacting.
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, (Who came with the promise? God came) and Sarah shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac--
Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom 9:12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
This view of choices being the reason why God said what He said. Not only goes contrary to Paul's intent but is contrary to the language clearly stated. "not yet born" and "having made no good or bad choices".
If it was about choices, then why did Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit say this?
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
If it was about choices, then man would have no reason to object to what was written. Obviously, the objection is being raised, because it is not about choices. It is about the purpose of God according to election.
If this is not what is being taught here, then I don't even understand the English language. To make it say something else, would require new meanings for these words.
I believe the concluding part of my post is in line with St Paul's position in Romans as you quoted. Our understanding of it seems to differ.
The bible reveals to us that there are two paths of life on earth--- the life path of righteousness and the life path of ungodliness.
I believe that we are all children of God but the path we choose in life either of righteousness or unrighteousness differentiates us -- the good and the bad, the righteous and the unrighteous. Paul says they are not all Israel which are of Israel. Why? because there were people who were vehemently rejecting the way of God declared by our Lord Jesus Christ and taught by the apostles, who preferred to follow the life after the flesh. These people (not just the Jews) that live after the flesh, that follow the path of ungodliness are not the children of God except they repent. As you quoted, the children of God are the children of promise. And who are these? there are various ways to look at it from the scripture including Paul's angle but i will make my references from two angles which also agree with Paul's position. But first I need to say that in his letter, Paul was defending his gospel of faith and distinguishing or rather separating the life fashioned after the flesh from the life lived after the Spirit {2 paths of life}
We read in John 1:11 - 13, he came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name, which were born, not of blood nor of the will of man nor the will of the flesh but of God. Jesus tells us that those born of God are those that are born of water and of the Spirit, that is living the life after the Spirit through faith--the life of righteousness. We make the choice to believe or not to believe. I do not believe that God elects some people to believe and others not to believe and then goes ahead to punish or chasten the unbelievers. It is recorded that not all Israelites that came out of Egypt reached the promised land, some died in the wilderness because of unbelief. Is the bible telling us that these people were chosen by God to disobey Him? Why drive Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden if it were God that chose them to disobey his words. This line of election argument is really hard for me to swallow..
In Isaac shall your seed be called.
This has its root in the story of Sarah and her Hand maid Hagar. We are familiar with this story but for the benefit of those who are not, here is a recap of the story. Sarah, Abraham’s wife had a maid called Hagar and Sarah had difficulty conceiving a child. She gave Hagar to her husband to bear children for her. She conceived and bore him his first child called Ishmael. Once she became pregnant, she despised, taunted and disrespected Sarah. Eventually, Sarah conceived according to the promise of God and bore Isaac, Abraham’s second child. On the day Isaac was weaned, Sarah noticed that Ishmael was mocking Isaac and then told her husband Abraham, to send Hagar out of the house with her son. As expected, he was not happy with Sarah’s position on the matter but surprisingly God asked him to hearken to her and do as she has said for in Isaac shall his seed be called
The question mark is on how Ishmael was conceived in contrast to the conception of Isaac. It is about the choices Sarah and Abraham made in their childlessness. Sarah, who was hungry for a child and motivated by a sense of belonging to be called a mother; to conform to societal norms; to gain the respect of family, friends and society, and remove the reproach associated with her situation, yielded to her fleshly desires of getting her needs fulfilled by any means, even when the action negated the word of God. She succumbed to the will of the flesh and the will of man, which in turn gave birth to the flesh, which began to taunt and cause her pain and sorrow. This points us to the life after the flesh and the aftermath of it. It is written, “Those born of the flesh are flesh.” When we live the life of flesh, what we give “birth” to is the flesh and what we get is the pain of the flesh. We get the qualities inherent in the flesh which are never good.
This act of Sarah repeats itself in the world today in different forms, causing untold hardships and havoc in the lives of men and women. It must be made clear that there is nothing untoward in seeking to have our needs met but the process, the motivation and intention must be right and pure. And, this purity must be reflected in our thoughts, character and conduct. It all boils down to – when we are down or up, what choices do we make? Do we have faith in God and find our purpose or sense of belonging in Him or do we place our hope and faith in man and material elements of the world. (2 paths of life)
Isaac was born out of faith unlike Ismael. God promised and Abraham believed and saw the promises of God fulfilled in his life. Paul tells us that so it will be for anyone that follows the same line of faith, as he says, the just shall live by faith. It is written that the Son of God is come to give us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true, even in his son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Jesus declared the way of truth/righteousness/eternal life to us. it is either we believe and follow him as he enjoins us or we follow the way after the flesh. it is a choice.
This freedom of choice was embedded in God's dealings with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God said to Adam, you can eat the fruit of all the trees of the garden including the tree of life but the fruit of the tree of good and evil you shall not eat for the day you eat of it you shall die (Genesis 2:16, 17). The latitude of freedom is within the sphere of the word of God, within His rules and regulations. Anything outside of it is vain and breeds vacuum
In my next thread I will address my views on Romans 9:10 - 14 as quoted in your post.