" Maybe its real and im just not Chosen "

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#1
So either you aren't real
Or I am just not chosen
Maybe I'll never know
Either way my heart is broken
This is the lyrics from a well known, former professing Calvinist , singer song writer Derick Webb . Now self proclaimed 'reformed atheist ' .
i think this video explains some of the issues with Calvinism / Lordship salvation. This is an interview with Derick Webb ,who is now an atheist/ agnostic but formerly a famous singer song writer, professing Calvinist. I think what he says exposes some of the logical consequences of Calvinism and Lordship salvation .
Starting about the 50 min mark onwards are the key parts . till about 102 min mark .
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
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#2
So either you aren't real
Or I am just not chosen
Maybe I'll never know
Either way my heart is broken
This is the lyrics from a well known, former professing Calvinist , singer song writer Derick Webb . Now self proclaimed 'reformed atheist ' .
i think this video explains some of the issues with Calvinism / Lordship salvation. This is an interview with Derick Webb ,who is now an atheist/ agnostic but formerly a famous singer song writer, professing Calvinist. I think what he says exposes some of the logical consequences of Calvinism and Lordship salvation .
Starting about the 50 min mark onwards are the key parts . till about 102 min mark .
I probably won't wade through nearly two hours of this, but I have question. Is a song-writer, professing Calvinist and admitted atheist the credentials needed for sorting out Calvin's theory?. I know brothers who do not practice their Christianity because some Christians were nasty to them. Is that a reason to dump one's faith? No. It shows a petulance in trial, and a faith based on a man, that when it became evident that that man had got it wrong, collapsed. Romans Chapter 1 denies such a thing as an atheist. It affirms that men "hold the truth in unrighteousness" (vs.18-21). Mr. Webb might move people with his songs, but Romans Chapter 1 calls him a liar. This is no qualification for judging Calvin's theology.

I'm sorry if you are a fan of his and my words seem harsh. No offense is meant to you.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#3
I probably won't wade through nearly two hours of this, but I have question. Is a song-writer, professing Calvinist and admitted atheist the credentials needed for sorting out Calvin's theory?. I know brothers who do not practice their Christianity because some Christians were nasty to them. Is that a reason to dump one's faith? No. It shows a petulance in trial, and a faith based on a man, that when it became evident that that man had got it wrong, collapsed. Romans Chapter 1 denies such a thing as an atheist. It affirms that men "hold the truth in unrighteousness" (vs.18-21). Mr. Webb might move people with his songs, but Romans Chapter 1 calls him a liar. This is no qualification for judging Calvin's theology.

I'm sorry if you are a fan of his and my words seem harsh. No offense is meant to you.
The relevant part is 20 mins long .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#4
I probably won't wade through nearly two hours of this, but I have question. Is a song-writer, professing Calvinist and admitted atheist the credentials needed for sorting out Calvin's theory?. I know brothers who do not practice their Christianity because some Christians were nasty to them. Is that a reason to dump one's faith? No. It shows a petulance in trial, and a faith based on a man, that when it became evident that that man had got it wrong, collapsed. Romans Chapter 1 denies such a thing as an atheist. It affirms that men "hold the truth in unrighteousness" (vs.18-21). Mr. Webb might move people with his songs, but Romans Chapter 1 calls him a liar. This is no qualification for judging Calvin's theology.

I'm sorry if you are a fan of his and my words seem harsh. No offense is meant to you.
It won't make any sense unless you watch . understand if you don't.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#5
OK. I took your time frame and listened to the interview in it. I did not get the impression that Mr. Webb was a Calvinist, but maybe he said it in another part of the interview. But I grant that Mr. Webb is open and honest about his lack of belief. His body language towards the Interviewer was interesting, but as that is not a fixed science, let it be. I also listened to a clip of his music and enjoyed it. Mr. Webb displayed all the hallmarks of a simple infidel, except he has investigated and learned certain Christian doctrines. He did not seem to suffer from Calvin. His refusal of Christ is simply down to having no faith (which is a gift of God - Ephesians 2:8), and no revelation (which is a gift of God - Matt.16:17).

What he did admit was that no man could convince him - which is true since that is the job of the Holy Spirit, and that it would take a miracle - which is true since the carnal man is an enemy of God. All-in-all he was candid and honest, and I enjoyed his admission that Christianity is a "exclusive religion". That it certainly is. But Calvin is not the reason why he does not believe. Mr. Webb wants proof of a God and yet refuses the creation. Mr. Webb doesn't like the exclusivity of Jesus Christ, but that will never change.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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#6
OK. I took your time frame and listened to the interview in it. I did not get the impression that Mr. Webb was a Calvinist, but maybe he said it in another part of the interview. But I grant that Mr. Webb is open and honest about his lack of belief. His body language towards the Interviewer was interesting, but as that is not a fixed science, let it be. I also listened to a clip of his music and enjoyed it. Mr. Webb displayed all the hallmarks of a simple infidel, except he has investigated and learned certain Christian doctrines. He did not seem to suffer from Calvin. His refusal of Christ is simply down to having no faith (which is a gift of God - Ephesians 2:8), and no revelation (which is a gift of God - Matt.16:17).

What he did admit was that no man could convince him - which is true since that is the job of the Holy Spirit, and that it would take a miracle - which is true since the carnal man is an enemy of God. All-in-all he was candid and honest, and I enjoyed his admission that Christianity is a "exclusive religion". That it certainly is. But Calvin is not the reason why he does not believe. Mr. Webb wants proof of a God and yet refuses the creation. Mr. Webb doesn't like the exclusivity of Jesus Christ, but that will never change.
From my perspective I see the issue is that he is putting the blame onto God for his unbelief. His understanding of Calvinism is spot on . in the sense of
OK. I took your time frame and listened to the interview in it. I did not get the impression that Mr. Webb was a Calvinist, but maybe he said it in another part of the interview. But I grant that Mr. Webb is open and honest about his lack of belief. His body language towards the Interviewer was interesting, but as that is not a fixed science, let it be. I also listened to a clip of his music and enjoyed it. Mr. Webb displayed all the hallmarks of a simple infidel, except he has investigated and learned certain Christian doctrines. He did not seem to suffer from Calvin. His refusal of Christ is simply down to having no faith (which is a gift of God - Ephesians 2:8), and no revelation (which is a gift of God - Matt.16:17).

What he did admit was that no man could convince him - which is true since that is the job of the Holy Spirit, and that it would take a miracle - which is true since the carnal man is an enemy of God. All-in-all he was candid and honest, and I enjoyed his admission that Christianity is a "exclusive religion". That it certainly is. But Calvin is not the reason why he does not believe. Mr. Webb wants proof of a God and yet refuses the creation. Mr. Webb doesn't like the exclusivity of Jesus Christ, but that will never change.
I think for me the sadness was that he said ' maybe I'm not chosen, so he's waiting around for God to show up . That is consistent with reformed theology. So it seems he has understood how Calvinists use ephesians 2.8,9 ,saying strangely that 'Faith 'is the gift , rather than salvation. He also uses the Lazarus analogy Calvinists use to explain ( equally strange ) Spiritual deadness ( Jesus refers to it more as ' sickness ') But Derick says he is sitting in the grace waiting to be made alive. Its not just Christianity he rejects. it is the refromed worldview of Christianity He understands. He still will use the same arguments to his Christian ( non calvinist ) friends to say " I don't know why your trying to convince me . The bible says if I'm not chosen ,I can't believe, I waiting, but I must not be chosen. Thats the sadness . I believe the responsibility is on him . He doesn't need to wait around for the Holy Spirit to irresistibly zap him ( There is no verse that the Holy Spirit draws anyone. He needs to simply turn to God in Faith . To simply believe the Gospel. The right Gospel . Not the reformed explanation of the Gospel that says man cannot believe unless regenerated first .
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#7
From my perspective I see the issue is that he is putting the blame onto God for his unbelief. His understanding of Calvinism is spot on . in the sense of
I think for me the sadness was that he said ' maybe I'm not chosen, so he's waiting around for God to show up . That is consistent with reformed theology. So it seems he has understood how Calvinists use ephesians 2.8,9 ,saying strangely that 'Faith 'is the gift , rather than salvation. He also uses the Lazarus analogy Calvinists use to explain ( equally strange ) Spiritual deadness ( Jesus refers to it more as ' sickness ') But Derick says he is sitting in the grace waiting to be made alive. Its not just Christianity he rejects. it is the refromed worldview of Christianity He understands. He still will use the same arguments to his Christian ( non calvinist ) friends to say " I don't know why your trying to convince me . The bible says if I'm not chosen ,I can't believe, I waiting, but I must not be chosen. Thats the sadness . I believe the responsibility is on him . He doesn't need to wait around for the Holy Spirit to irresistibly zap him ( There is no verse that the Holy Spirit draws anyone. He needs to simply turn to God in Faith . To simply believe the Gospel. The right Gospel . Not the reformed explanation of the Gospel that says man cannot believe unless regenerated first .
I understand were you come from, and to a certain extent, Derick, but with the sure knowledge that I cannot see the deepest thoughts and motives, i judge that in the short clip you proposed, I missed the core issue. That is, Derick is a sinner, an enemy and transgressor of God's instructions awaiting a grand assize in which he will have no standing and face dire consequences. When a man turns to God, three parties are involved.
(i) The Holy Spirit. It is His job to convict men like Derick of sin and coming judgement (Jn.16:8)
(ii) The Christian. When a man is convicted of doom, he must be TOLD (testified to) of the way out. That is Jesus Christ, Son of God, slain and risen
(iii) The man involved. He must (a) admit his dire need, (b) admit his sins, and (c) receive revelation of the Father

In all of this, where does Calvin feature? I tell you, Calvin only features AFTER the process above. It is one of many things he will hear INSIDE the Church. And then, I ask, what grand difference does it make? The man has admitted his sin and sins, he has admitted his dire need of a Savior, he has admitted Jesus Christ as that man, and he has been born of the Holy Spirit. And he is convinced of his new standing with God by the Holy Spirit in Him (Rom.8:16). Derick has not even crossed this hurdle. It is only AFTER CONVERSION that he faces wrong doctrine. Wrong doctrine in evangelism will not lead the man to atonement and rebirth. From the self achievement of the Roman Church to the reincarnation of the Hindu, nothing will lead him to a successful conversion. Faith in, and revelation of, Jesus, is what is needed. Calvin only comes later and has to do with how he behaves as a Christian.

Calvin got some things right, and he got somethings wrong. That which is in error leads to an attitude of slothfulness in a Christian. Calvin does not hinder the gospel. Calvin hinders BEHAVIOR AFTER conversion.

But now we have another problem. If Calvinism is to be condemned, what merit has Arminius? I tell, his error was worse. He may have laid the ground for a Christian to watch his behavior, but he maligned God and His Christ (unwittingly no doubt). I do not judge the fervency and character of our brother Arminius, but I judge his doctrine. His doctrine, in a nutshell, is that salvation is up to the Christian's behavior. We must all ask one great question: Is salvation accomplished by what WE do, or is it accomplished by the work Christ DID? It is achieved by the WORKS of Christ, and they in turn are APPROVED by the Father. The logical end of the doctrine of Arminius is that the works of Christ cause atonement, rebirth, receiving of eternal life and partaking of the divine nature INTRINSICALLY, BUT THAT THE WORKS OF A CHRISTIAN UNDO IT! How, I ask, can one undo a BIRTH? How can one END ETERNAL LIFE? How can one undo a work approved and certified by God. Is the man's behavior stronger than God?

In closing, it would remiss of me not to address the solution, however briefly I do it. Calvin and Arminius BOTH missed one crucial point. The both thought, like many Christians today, that the Kingdom that Jesus taught, and that His Apostles after Him taught, was IN heaven. But from Genesis 1:26-28, through the Covenant with Abraham, through the Covenant with Moses, through the prophets, especially Daniel, to the teachings of Jesus, to the New Jerusalem coming down to a renewed (lit. Gk.) earth, HEAVEN IS NOT THE GOAL! The immutable and unchanging goal of God with man is THE EARTH. His plan was for men in His image and likeness to RULE THE EARTH. And so the fate of men is TWOFOLD. (i) Will he be conformed to the image of Christ. This needs sins put away, rebirth, eternal life and the divine nature infused into that man. (ii) Will he be found worthy of being a CO-RULER with the Man Jesus in the Kingdom OUT OF Heaven? It is this second point that threatens the Christian - not the first. Do a study yourself. In every instance where the Christian is threatened, it is NEVER point number (i). The threat against a Christian is whether he will be found worthy as a STEWARD of his Lord's goods.

It is never his SALVATION that is called into question, but whether or not he will enter the Kingdom age as a RULER of cities. (Lk.19:17-19)
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#8
I understand were you come from, and to a certain extent, Derick, but with the sure knowledge that I cannot see the deepest thoughts and motives, i judge that in the short clip you proposed, I missed the core issue. That is, Derick is a sinner, an enemy and transgressor of God's instructions awaiting a grand assize in which he will have no standing and face dire consequences. When a man turns to God, three parties are involved.
(i) The Holy Spirit. It is His job to convict men like Derick of sin and coming judgement (Jn.16:8)
(ii) The Christian. When a man is convicted of doom, he must be TOLD (testified to) of the way out. That is Jesus Christ, Son of God, slain and risen
(iii) The man involved. He must (a) admit his dire need, (b) admit his sins, and (c) receive revelation of the Father

In all of this, where does Calvin feature? I tell you, Calvin only features AFTER the process above. It is one of many things he will hear INSIDE the Church. And then, I ask, what grand difference does it make? The man has admitted his sin and sins, he has admitted his dire need of a Savior, he has admitted Jesus Christ as that man, and he has been born of the Holy Spirit. And he is convinced of his new standing with God by the Holy Spirit in Him (Rom.8:16). Derick has not even crossed this hurdle. It is only AFTER CONVERSION that he faces wrong doctrine. Wrong doctrine in evangelism will not lead the man to atonement and rebirth. From the self achievement of the Roman Church to the reincarnation of the Hindu, nothing will lead him to a successful conversion. Faith in, and revelation of, Jesus, is what is needed. Calvin only comes later and has to do with how he behaves as a Christian.

Calvin got some things right, and he got somethings wrong. That which is in error leads to an attitude of slothfulness in a Christian. Calvin does not hinder the gospel. Calvin hinders BEHAVIOR AFTER conversion.

But now we have another problem. If Calvinism is to be condemned, what merit has Arminius? I tell, his error was worse. He may have laid the ground for a Christian to watch his behavior, but he maligned God and His Christ (unwittingly no doubt). I do not judge the fervency and character of our brother Arminius, but I judge his doctrine. His doctrine, in a nutshell, is that salvation is up to the Christian's behavior. We must all ask one great question: Is salvation accomplished by what WE do, or is it accomplished by the work Christ DID? It is achieved by the WORKS of Christ, and they in turn are APPROVED by the Father. The logical end of the doctrine of Arminius is that the works of Christ cause atonement, rebirth, receiving of eternal life and partaking of the divine nature INTRINSICALLY, BUT THAT THE WORKS OF A CHRISTIAN UNDO IT! How, I ask, can one undo a BIRTH? How can one END ETERNAL LIFE? How can one undo a work approved and certified by God. Is the man's behavior stronger than God?

In closing, it would remiss of me not to address the solution, however briefly I do it. Calvin and Arminius BOTH missed one crucial point. The both thought, like many Christians today, that the Kingdom that Jesus taught, and that His Apostles after Him taught, was IN heaven. But from Genesis 1:26-28, through the Covenant with Abraham, through the Covenant with Moses, through the prophets, especially Daniel, to the teachings of Jesus, to the New Jerusalem coming down to a renewed (lit. Gk.) earth, HEAVEN IS NOT THE GOAL! The immutable and unchanging goal of God with man is THE EARTH. His plan was for men in His image and likeness to RULE THE EARTH. And so the fate of men is TWOFOLD. (i) Will he be conformed to the image of Christ. This needs sins put away, rebirth, eternal life and the divine nature infused into that man. (ii) Will he be found worthy of being a CO-RULER with the Man Jesus in the Kingdom OUT OF Heaven? It is this second point that threatens the Christian - not the first. Do a study yourself. In every instance where the Christian is threatened, it is NEVER point number (i). The threat against a Christian is whether he will be found worthy as a STEWARD of his Lord's goods.

It is never his SALVATION that is called into question, but whether or not he will enter the Kingdom age as a RULER of cities. (Lk.19:17-19)
Thank you for a reasoned and considered response. it is refreshing lol .
Calvin followed on from Augustine. This is where the root of these teachings began. would you agree on this point . Then we get to Beza , then Jabob / James Arminius . Jacob taught under Beza ( hard-core) . Yes Jacob tried to find his way out of the system. But Just like luther doesn't quite make it all the way out of Rome ,Jacob doesn't quite make it out of the Calvinist Hive . Calvinsm and Arminism is just a ' in house 'squabble, that's basically all it is . Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.
I agree that once a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit it is until the day of redemption ( The Adoption . Rom 8.23 / Conformity to His image .Rom8.29/ the inheritance Eph 1.14 / The manifestation of the sons of God Rom 8.19 . This is what a believer is Predestined to ,only ! After He is regenerated/ saved / recieves Jesus / recieves the atonement. its not predestined to conversion. The predestination and sealing of the Holy Spirit is the Gurantee . This is Eternal security , Not the Calvinist understanding of Election .
As for the inheritance/ Earth v Heaven , ruling and reigning ect . That could be a separate thread on its own .
..will reply to the rest shortly ....
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#9
I understand were you come from, and to a certain extent, Derick, but with the sure knowledge that I cannot see the deepest thoughts and motives, i judge that in the short clip you proposed, I missed the core issue. That is, Derick is a sinner, an enemy and transgressor of God's instructions awaiting a grand assize in which he will have no standing and face dire consequences. When a man turns to God, three parties are involved.
(i) The Holy Spirit. It is His job to convict men like Derick of sin and coming judgement (Jn.16:8)
(ii) The Christian. When a man is convicted of doom, he must be TOLD (testified to) of the way out. That is Jesus Christ, Son of God, slain and risen
(iii) The man involved. He must (a) admit his dire need, (b) admit his sins, and (c) receive revelation of the Father

In all of this, where does Calvin feature? I tell you, Calvin only features AFTER the process above. It is one of many things he will hear INSIDE the Church. And then, I ask, what grand difference does it make? The man has admitted his sin and sins, he has admitted his dire need of a Savior, he has admitted Jesus Christ as that man, and he has been born of the Holy Spirit. And he is convinced of his new standing with God by the Holy Spirit in Him (Rom.8:16). Derick has not even crossed this hurdle. It is only AFTER CONVERSION that he faces wrong doctrine. Wrong doctrine in evangelism will not lead the man to atonement and rebirth. From the self achievement of the Roman Church to the reincarnation of the Hindu, nothing will lead him to a successful conversion. Faith in, and revelation of, Jesus, is what is needed. Calvin only comes later and has to do with how he behaves as a Christian.

Calvin got some things right, and he got somethings wrong. That which is in error leads to an attitude of slothfulness in a Christian. Calvin does not hinder the gospel. Calvin hinders BEHAVIOR AFTER conversion.

But now we have another problem. If Calvinism is to be condemned, what merit has Arminius? I tell, his error was worse. He may have laid the ground for a Christian to watch his behavior, but he maligned God and His Christ (unwittingly no doubt). I do not judge the fervency and character of our brother Arminius, but I judge his doctrine. His doctrine, in a nutshell, is that salvation is up to the Christian's behavior. We must all ask one great question: Is salvation accomplished by what WE do, or is it accomplished by the work Christ DID? It is achieved by the WORKS of Christ, and they in turn are APPROVED by the Father. The logical end of the doctrine of Arminius is that the works of Christ cause atonement, rebirth, receiving of eternal life and partaking of the divine nature INTRINSICALLY, BUT THAT THE WORKS OF A CHRISTIAN UNDO IT! How, I ask, can one undo a BIRTH? How can one END ETERNAL LIFE? How can one undo a work approved and certified by God. Is the man's behavior stronger than God?

In closing, it would remiss of me not to address the solution, however briefly I do it. Calvin and Arminius BOTH missed one crucial point. The both thought, like many Christians today, that the Kingdom that Jesus taught, and that His Apostles after Him taught, was IN heaven. But from Genesis 1:26-28, through the Covenant with Abraham, through the Covenant with Moses, through the prophets, especially Daniel, to the teachings of Jesus, to the New Jerusalem coming down to a renewed (lit. Gk.) earth, HEAVEN IS NOT THE GOAL! The immutable and unchanging goal of God with man is THE EARTH. His plan was for men in His image and likeness to RULE THE EARTH. And so the fate of men is TWOFOLD. (i) Will he be conformed to the image of Christ. This needs sins put away, rebirth, eternal life and the divine nature infused into that man. (ii) Will he be found worthy of being a CO-RULER with the Man Jesus in the Kingdom OUT OF Heaven? It is this second point that threatens the Christian - not the first. Do a study yourself. In every instance where the Christian is threatened, it is NEVER point number (i). The threat against a Christian is whether he will be found worthy as a STEWARD of his Lord's goods.

It is never his SALVATION that is called into question, but whether or not he will enter the Kingdom age as a RULER of cities. (Lk.19:17-19)
I agree that Derick most likely was a false convert . Of course there are many factors for this happening and no will be able to stand before God and say ' it wasn't my fault , I didn't believe on Jesus ' . But there is a battle going on ,and certain teachings are impeding the Gospel going out and being taught . I don't believe there is a Gospel in Calvinsm . I do agree with you that its mainly AFTER a person is saved certain doctrines come into play ,good or bad . But often we are having to deal with unbelievers who are rejecting a message that is not the correct message . Many a time evangelising do we ask ' what is it you dont believe ' when they present what they are arguing against ,its often ive said " well I don't believe that either, it's not the Gospel " . The damage can be done by a false message . This comes to light when you look at any debate between Calvinists and Mormons ( or Jehovah's_Witnesses) The representation of God and the Gospel is rejected as these cults actually expose whats wrong with the ' doctrines of grace ' So then we cringe as a wider audience is seeing the logical conclusion of a system unravel , that they think is the Gospel . Of course this works both ways ,as Calvinists are coming against the ' sinners prayer ' ect . Because in light of their doctrines it cannot be that a person ( every and any person) can simply believe and recieve Jesus . And no I don't believe that a person can be saved without receiving Jesus .
 
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#10
I agree that Derick most likely was a false convert . Of course there are many factors for this happening and no will be able to stand before God and say ' it wasn't my fault , I didn't believe on Jesus ' . But there is a battle going on ,and certain teachings are impeding the Gospel going out and being taught . I don't believe there is a Gospel in Calvinsm . I do agree with you that its mainly AFTER a person is saved certain doctrines come into play ,good or bad . But often we are having to deal with unbelievers who are rejecting a message that is not the correct message . Many a time evangelising do we ask ' what is it you dont believe ' when they present what they are arguing against ,its often ive said " well I don't believe that either, it's not the Gospel " . The damage can be done by a false message . This comes to light when you look at any debate between Calvinists and Mormons ( or Jehovah's_Witnesses) The representation of God and the Gospel is rejected as these cults actually expose whats wrong with the ' doctrines of grace ' So then we cringe as a wider audience is seeing the logical conclusion of a system unravel , that they think is the Gospel . Of course this works both ways ,as Calvinists are coming against the ' sinners prayer ' ect . Because in light of their doctrines it cannot be that a person ( every and any person) can simply believe and recieve Jesus . And no I don't believe that a person can be saved without receiving Jesus .
I think we can agree on most of what you said. We'll leave the "heaven" thing for another day, but do you realize that it is in the repertoire of most evangelists. Yet they can produce not a single scripture that directly says this. They use other scriptures that may allude to this, but not a single scripture directly says that (i) dead men go to heaven, and/or (ii) that man's destiny is heaven. Of course, I have not attended many evangelistic speeches since I was born again in mid 1978. So judging whether Calvin is used as an evangelistic theme would be vain. But I certainly can't see its value in evangelism. Calvin's mistake leads the ALREADY Christian, young and old, to think that he/she can do what they like without consequences. That is serious.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
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#11
I probably won't wade through nearly two hours of this, but I have question. Is a song-writer, professing Calvinist and admitted atheist the credentials needed for sorting out Calvin's theory?. ....
I think so, yes. If you scroll to the 50 minute mark in the video it might provide you insight as to why the OP appreciates this discussion.

Calvinism/Lordship Salvation is not only false and unbiblical, and making scripture into a gymnastic twist and turn to nail the landing that Calvinism believes sustains its existence, isn't what qualifies as Biblical.
Calvinism/Lordship Salvation also makes God out to be a sadistic pre-meditative puppet master whose design is to honor and save those who he predetermined would be the elite!While premeditating the creation of those he knew would suffer Hell and damnation eternally.

Who saves people from a god like that? Who saves people from Calvinism?
Answer: Those who think more of themselves than to accept Calvinism's view of its god.That's who.


If you who read this are a Calvinist, or honor Lordship Salvation, STOP! And think more of yourself than to follow a cult teaching that is lying to you!

GOD IS NOT IN CALVINISM/LORDSHIP SALVATION!
When you're dead it will be too late to know that. Or to realize because you ignored this single warning, that Calvinism/Lordship Salvation's god is not a god of love.

Love yourself! Leave that cult!
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#12
So either you aren't real
Or I am just not chosen
Maybe I'll never know
Either way my heart is broken
This is the lyrics from a well known, former professing Calvinist , singer song writer Derick Webb . Now self proclaimed 'reformed atheist ' .
i think this video explains some of the issues with Calvinism / Lordship salvation. This is an interview with Derick Webb ,who is now an atheist/ agnostic but formerly a famous singer song writer, professing Calvinist. I think what he says exposes some of the logical consequences of Calvinism and Lordship salvation .
Starting about the 50 min mark onwards are the key parts . till about 102 min mark .
I listened to it at the 50 minute mark, however I am not really sure what you are wanting us/me to glean from the conversation.

Becoming a Christian is not a data driven process?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#13
I listened to it at the 50 minute mark, however I am not really sure what you are wanting us/me to glean from the conversation.

Becoming a Christian is not a data driven process?
Have you ever shared with someone who has been taught Catholicism and they reject Christianity ,Jesus and the real Gospel because they think the message is 'Catholicism ' ? Derick Webb rejects a false representation of the Gospel and Jesus based on him being taught Calvinsm. Instead of the responsibility being on him to believe and recieve Jesus ,he thinks that he's not chosen because he doesn't believe . How long is Derick going to be waiting for God to regenerate him out of no where ?which is what he believes has to happen.
 
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#14
I think so, yes. If you scroll to the 50 minute mark in the video it might provide you insight as to why the OP appreciates this discussion.

Calvinism/Lordship Salvation is not only false and unbiblical, and making scripture into a gymnastic twist and turn to nail the landing that Calvinism believes sustains its existence, isn't what qualifies as Biblical.
Calvinism/Lordship Salvation also makes God out to be a sadistic pre-meditative puppet master whose design is to honor and save those who he predetermined would be the elite!While premeditating the creation of those he knew would suffer Hell and damnation eternally.

Who saves people from a god like that? Who saves people from Calvinism?
Answer: Those who think more of themselves than to accept Calvinism's view of its god.That's who.


If you who read this are a Calvinist, or honor Lordship Salvation, STOP! And think more of yourself than to follow a cult teaching that is lying to you!

GOD IS NOT IN CALVINISM/LORDSHIP SALVATION!
When you're dead it will be too late to know that. Or to realize because you ignored this single warning, that Calvinism/Lordship Salvation's god is not a god of love.

Love yourself! Leave that cult!
At present there is another thread on Calvinism, which, if you read my posts, would show that I do not subscribe to Calvinism. What I addressed in the short posting you quoted was; 'shall an heathen, once professed Calvinist, and now professed atheist be our measuring stick for judging Calvin?' You obviously do, and that is your right. I would have thought that an excerpt from Calvin himself, followed by a scholarly rebuttal showing his mistake, is a far better method.

Your protest against Calvin (without bringing proof) is noted and we are more or less in agreement on that.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#15
At present there is another thread on Calvinism, which, if you read my posts, would show that I do not subscribe to Calvinism. What I addressed in the short posting you quoted was; 'shall an heathen, once professed Calvinist, and now professed atheist be our measuring stick for judging Calvin?' You obviously do, and that is your right. I would have thought that an excerpt from Calvin himself, followed by a scholarly rebuttal showing his mistake, is a far better method.

Your protest against Calvin (without bringing proof) is noted and we are more or less in agreement on that.
I'm not sure if people are Judging John Calvin directly ? But the worldview , of ' calvinism ' or T.U.L.I.P
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#16
Have you ever shared with someone who has been taught Catholicism and they reject Christianity ,Jesus and the real Gospel because they think the message is 'Catholicism ' ? Derick Webb rejects a false representation of the Gospel and Jesus based on him being taught Calvinsm. Instead of the responsibility being on him to believe and recieve Jesus ,he thinks that he's not chosen because he doesn't believe . How long is Derick going to be waiting for God to regenerate him out of no where ?which is what he believes has to happen.
I understand this for sure... maybe I listened to the wrong section.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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I'm not sure if people are Judging John Calvin directly ? But the worldview , of ' calvinism ' or T.U.L.I.P
The man shot the woman with a revolver. Gnostics blame his childhood. The world blames the gun. But God says the man did it.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
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#18
At present there is another thread on Calvinism, which, if you read my posts, would show that I do not subscribe to Calvinism. What I addressed in the short posting you quoted was; 'shall an heathen, once professed Calvinist, and now professed atheist be our measuring stick for judging Calvin?' You obviously do, and that is your right. I would have thought that an excerpt from Calvin himself, followed by a scholarly rebuttal showing his mistake, is a far better method.

Your protest against Calvin (without bringing proof) is noted and we are more or less in agreement on that.
"'shall an heathen, once professed Calvinist, and now professed atheist be our measuring stick for judging Calvin?' You obviously do," Do what? Subscribe to Calvinism?

Without bringing proof?
I'm also in the other Calvinism thread. Proof aplenty.
Are you a scholar?

 
Jun 11, 2020
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#19
"'shall an heathen, once professed Calvinist, and now professed atheist be our measuring stick for judging Calvin?' You obviously do," Do what? Subscribe to Calvinism?

Without bringing proof?
I'm also in the other Calvinism thread. Proof aplenty.
Are you a scholar?
I answered your posting # 11. In this posting you expressed your objection to Calvin. But in posting # 11 you brought not a single quote from Calvin, and not a single verse to back up your tirade against him. This mean you accused but brought no proof. I was correct.

But let's start again. That you object is accepted. I don't agree with Calvin either. In a heathen court one is allowed to accuse, but proof must be brought. How much more shall we Christians bring proof of serious accusations. I propose that to be righteous, you write down Calvin's beliefs (with references) and rebut them with scripture and commentary. Don't worry, I do read the long postings, so you can go to 2 or 3 A4 or US Letter. I await in anticipation. As an example you may want to read my posting # 32 in the "other Calvinism thread"* - an answer to the OP.

Thanks, and God bless.

* "Calvinism and Context".
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#20
I answered your posting # 11. In this posting you expressed your objection to Calvin. But in posting # 11 you brought not a single quote from Calvin, and not a single verse to back up your tirade against him. This mean you accused but brought no proof. I was correct.

But let's start again. That you object is accepted. I don't agree with Calvin either. In a heathen court one is allowed to accuse, but proof must be brought. How much more shall we Christians bring proof of serious accusations. I propose that to be righteous, you write down Calvin's beliefs (with references) and rebut them with scripture and commentary. Don't worry, I do read the long postings, so you can go to 2 or 3 A4 or US Letter. I await in anticipation. As an example you may want to read my posting # 32 in the "other Calvinism thread"* - an answer to the OP.

Thanks, and God bless.

* "Calvinism and Context".
You keep doing that 'calvin 'thing ??