I cannot understand the need for the crucifixion-and i think it’s holding my Christian life back

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Mar 28, 2016
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Exactly. You have it. Look into Red Letter Bible Christians.
The focus is on the New Testament ... on Jesus.


Jesus said the two greatest commandments are these:
1) Love the Lord, God with all your heart
2) Love Your Neighbor as yourself
AND ... UPON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE REST.


Read what Jesus says very carefully and you will see nothing but love. Jesus, the Son of God came to save us, but we do need to listen to what He has asked us to do as best we can. That is NOT works. It is obeying Jesus, our Saviour who said to forgive 77 x 7 ... which means endlessly. Does that sound like a God who is going to send you to Hell?
We should be careful with red letters. The idea can be confusing for a new believer. The same Holy Spirt that worked in the the apostle Jesus worked in any of the sons of mankind sent with the word of our Father called prophecy.

Division can start where one might pit one apostle against another. Like Paul and James . Or like in Catholiscim where they venerate Peter as if he was the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against, as another Christ another teacher, another gospel. The antichrists .

The study of basic key words as to there original meaning can save much confusion.

In that way the Holy Spirit protects the integrity in part one word and in whole .With two warnings not to go above all things written in the law and the prophets. The two witnesses of God
 
May 31, 2020
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You do not take your sin seriously like God does. For you it is no problem to forgive and live on with another sinner because you yourself are one.

God is not like us though. You can not expect Him to behave as you. Just about every post in this thread explains why our Holy God cannot just ignore sin. It has to be dealt with to be holy.

It all started through Adam, one man set the course of sin for all humanity. Now one man, that is Christ was able to redeem us all. That is how sin was dealt with.

For some reason though you are angry about God's solution.
I’m not angry whatsoever with God’s solution. The OP asked why Christ had to be sacrificed and you’ve yet to answer the philosophical aspect of the question.
 
Jun 22, 2020
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I’m not angry whatsoever with God’s solution. The OP asked why Christ had to be sacrificed and you’ve yet to answer the philosophical aspect of the question.
Can u give me your thoughts in regards to my example in post #116 please.
 
Jun 25, 2020
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THE QUESTION REMAINS UNANSWERED: Why would God offer his Son (an innocent/God) to pay for mens' sins and EXACTLY how does this work? How does the death of one take away the sins of all? Those sins should be paid for by each and every perpetrator. The answer is Atonement theory, but there have been many other theories about why Christ died. This one stuck. I think Jesus died because they felt He was a threat to the powers that "be" at the time. Period. If I could not sacrific my own child (and I am a sinner), how could God do any less.
Here are the theories put forth by MEN over time as to why Christ died: There are seven different theories that were put forth. But Atonement stuck:

https://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/
You need to remember that God did not force Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. Jesus also chose to do so out of his own free will. Jesus knew that they wanted to kill him and he allowed himself to be captured.

In John 10:18 Jesus says “No man taketh it (my life) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Therefore the crucifixion was a joint decision by both God the Father and the Son. The penalty of sin is death and the Son agreed with Father that he would pay the penalty.

As to your question “How does the death of one take away the sins of all? How does it work?”
The answer is Faith.
As a Christian, you must believe that you are saved by grace through faith and must have faith that He took away your sins and other people's sins.

The bible does not actually explain how it works.

A person might also wonder how is it that in 2020 I am saved and my sins are forgiven by Jesus who died 2000 years? How does it work? Well, the bible does not explain this. The bible says that we should only believe, although we are unable to reason it out (1 Corinthians 1:18-27)

A good example is the story of the Brazen serpent that healed the Israelites when they were in the wilderness (You can read about it in Numbers 21:5-9)

In the story, the Israelites were bitten by snakes while they were in the desert. God told Moses to make a serpent from brass and put it on a pole. And whoever looked at it will not be killed and live.
The instruction given does not make sense. How can looking at a fake snake prevent the poison from killing you?
However, those who looked at the fake snake and had faith that they will be healed are the ones that got cured and lived.
Those who questioned tried to reason it out and explain it, died.

The bible does not explain how it works. We are simply asked to exercise our childlike faith and believe.

You have the choice of not believing that Jesus died and took away your sins. And if you do, you will get the penalty of your sins and you will die. It is your choice.

Jesus who was sinless had to die in our place to take our sins because there is no amount of goods deeds that we can do that will be good enough to take our sins. (Isaiah 64:6)

We are unable to make the payment of our sins even if we wanted to (We are like the servant in the parable of Matthew 18:23- who was unable to settle his debt and the king had pity on him and canceled his debt)

Our debt of sin is too big; we are unable to settle it. Therefore Jesus agreed with God that He will settle it on our behalf.
 
May 31, 2020
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Can u give me your thoughts in regards to my example in post #116 please.
Excellent analogy. The court demanded justice be served and THEN forgiveness could be granted rather than simply granting forgiveness in the first place. In the end your son was taken from you so how was that helpful?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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THE QUESTION REMAINS UNANSWERED: Why would God offer his Son (an innocent/God) to pay for mens' sins and EXACTLY how does this work? How does the death of one take away the sins of all?
The question was fully answered.

WHY? Because God is merciful and gracious and His love made that provision.

HOW? Because Jesus is fully God and also fully sinless Man.

Christ was God's substitute for all mankind. The sin-debt had to be paid, and was fully paid by Him.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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We should be careful with red letters. The idea can be confusing for a new believer. The same Holy Spirt that worked in the the apostle Jesus worked in any of the sons of mankind sent with the word of our Father called prophecy.

Division can start where one might pit one apostle against another. Like Paul and James . Or like in Catholiscim where they venerate Peter as if he was the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against, as another Christ another teacher, another gospel. The antichrists .
Are you suggesting that Jesus is no more special than Paul, James, or Peter?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Are you suggesting that Jesus is no more special than Paul, James, or Peter?
No not at all.

The first born Jesus as a Son of God, as sons of God alone is pictured below. Not Paul or James or Peter, the many brothers.

Hebrews 1: 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

omans 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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No... What i said is that i don't understand... That is totally different to not being satisfied... I can't speak for @MichaelLone but i think he is saying the same thing considering one of the examples he gave the same as what i had pondered

Help me through this thought process... A hypothetical scenario...

Say, while I was at work my house got broken into and my wife was raped and killed by 3 men...
Now instead of those three men being punished I choose to hand over my only son to the courts to sentence him to death for the sins of those three men... Now i have no wife and no child and these three criminals are at large...

Can you see our confusion?
and did you read the rest of my post?


If that is how you are viewing things as a starting place I am confused. Can you pick a different example?

God has no consort and if we are coming from a scriptural understanding those 3 men (representing sin?) are not at large ultimately.

Our lives are tiny blips on the radar of eternity. Spurious logic perhaps but it has helped me to factor in time and this being a transitory state.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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No not at all.

The first born Jesus as a Son of God, as sons of God alone is pictured below. Not Paul or James or Peter, the many brothers.
Then what did you mean by this: "We should be careful with red letters. The idea can be confusing for a new believer. The same Holy Spirt (sic) that worked in the the apostle Jesus worked in any of the sons of mankind sent with the word of our Father called prophecy. Division can start where one might pit one apostle against another."
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Many want certainty because it is reassuring. But, when it comes to God, we cannot have that. And, in a way, the mystery that is God, is also the beauty of it all. The Old and New Testaments are radically different ... BUT with Jesus ... we finally have it. Jesus ministered for 3 years and He had a message for all of us. No one can possibly follow it perfectly, BUT we have to try and to do our best. Jesus greatest gift to us IS his message.

Yes, he died & atonement theory still stands. I find it difficult to comprehend and I am not alone in that feeling ...
I know that one day I will understand and, for me, that is enough.
A lot of what you say is true, but Jesus' greatest gift is not His message. It is Himself.

And His death upon the cross is the ultimate expression of who He is. He demonstrated He is gentle and in opposition to the world's ethics by resolutely going to the cross not for what He had done but so that we would be cleansed. Repentance and forgiveness can take care of the offense, but they could never deal with the corruption that sin brings. If we were left to our own death would rightly come to every one of us because we have sinned, but the penalty is blind since all pay equally. Jesus came, paid that penalty and swallowed it up in Himself because there was no sin in Him that death could hold Him. Through that He took the power of death away and placing our healing in Him. None see salvation without the cross and through it we are all judged. If we are honest about it the cross forces us to answer whether we would condemn God in order to justify ourselves, a true test of whether we are righteous.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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No... What i said is that i don't understand... That is totally different to not being satisfied... I can't speak for @MichaelLone but i think he is saying the same thing considering one of the examples he gave the same as what i had pondered

Help me through this thought process... A hypothetical scenario...

Say, while I was at work my house got broken into and my wife was raped and killed by 3 men...
Now instead of those three men being punished I choose to hand over my only son to the courts to sentence him to death for the sins of those three men... Now i have no wife and no child and these three criminals are at large...

Can you see our confusion?
The analogy you used isn't quite right for several reasons. The first is that Christ, as King, has the right to whatever His subjects have earned. Your son has no authority over the rapists, and thus he is nothing more than a victim. Christ, on the other hand, while not guilty is well within His rights to take responsibility for those in His charge. The second is that in your case death is retribution rather than the natural outcome, as sin goes directly against God's nature and as a good God there can be no tolerance of it.

The third contention is whether there is full conception of guilt for the rapists. On the other hand, we have no real concept of the true depth of our sin except from its consequences. Through Christ we come to know just how destructive sin is, yet the cross gives us an opportunity to be rehabilitated through being confronted with the consequence in God.
 
Jun 22, 2020
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Excellent analogy. The court demanded justice be served and THEN forgiveness could be granted rather than simply granting forgiveness in the first place. In the end your son was taken from you so how was that helpful?
Well thats what i don't understand. In the end the wife and the son was taken. I can't see how that was helpful.
 
Jun 22, 2020
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and did you read the rest of my post?
Yes off course.
If that is how you are viewing things as a starting place I am confused. Can you pick a different example?
It seems the earthly analogy that we have used is inadequate i think. Perhaps u can offer a more suitable one.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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A lot of what you say is true, but Jesus' greatest gift is not His message. It is Himself.
Right, so for some, Jesus' Ministry ... preaching to us about right and wrong and telling us How we are to LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR ... was not his greatest gift. His greatest gift was being crucified and tortured to death because that is what saves us.

Jesus did NOT live in vein. He changed the world with his preaching.
It seems that some people believe this: His dying to save ME from Hell was his main feat.


Subsitutionary Atonement is just one of many theories about why Jesus died.
https://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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[quoting... reposting from an article]


Paul Wilson - [Source: Biblecentre, link below]

The Two Goats Of Leviticus 16

The "limited atonement" doctrine is built upon a premise that lacks understanding of the two views of the cross of Christ as regards His work, that is, propitiation and substitution. The types used on the day of atonement in Leviticus 16 are set aside in deference to a theory, a doctrine of men (be they good men or bad is not the point). On that memorable day, which occurred once a year in Israel's history, there were, among other similitudes two goats - one called the Lord's lot, and the other the people's. The goat of the Lord's lot was killed and its blood taken inside of the veil by the high priest, where he sprinkled the blood once upon the mercy seat and seven times on the desert sand before it. It was there above the mercy seat that God dwelt among the people, and as they were sinners He must needs have the evidence of death presented before Him - the blood was sprinkled there. This was propitiation - a satisfaction rendered to God whereby He could act in grace toward a sinful people. On the head of the other goat, the sins of the people were confessed by the high priest, and it was led into a land not inhabited, so that their sins were removed. This was substitution.
In a sense, both goats are one in the matter of sin - the one being slain and its blood presented before God, and the other bearing the sins away to be remembered no more - for without the blood of the one goat there could be no bearing away of sins on the other. Let us notice the words of another:

Denial Of Substitution

"There is a continual tendency in the different classes, even of believers in Christendom, to ignore one or other of these truths. Take for instance those zealous that the gospel go out to every creature. It is notorious that most of these deny God's special favor to the elect. They overlook or pare down any positive difference on God's part toward His own children. They hold that a man throughout his course may be a child of God today and not tomorrow. This destroys substitution [seen in the live goat led away]. They hold propitiation [seen in the blood of the other goat as presented before God], and there they are right, and quite justified in preaching the gospel unrestrictedly to every creature, as the Lord indeed enjoined, But how their one-sidedness enfeebles the proper portion of the saints!

Denial Of Propitiation

"But look for a moment at the opposite side [Mr. Pink's], which holds that all God has done and reveals is in view of the elect only, and that all He has wrought in Christ Jesus is in effect for the Church, and that He does not care about the world, except to judge it at the last day. This may be put rather bluntly, for I do not present such grievous narrowness toward man and dishonor of God and His Son in as polished terms as those might desire who cherish notions so unsavory and unsound. But it is true that a certain respectable class around us do see nothing but the elect as the object of God. Their doctrine supposes only the second goat, or the people's lot. They see the all-importance of substitution, but Jehovah's lot has no place as distinct.

http://biblecentre.org/content.php?mode=7&item=892

[continuing, from the article at link]

"How came the two contending parties of religionists not to see both goats? The Word of God reveals both.... Plainly there are two goats. The goat of propitiation is to provide in the fullest manner for the glory of God, even where sin is before Him. In fulfilling it, what was the consequence? Christ was forsaken of God that the believer should never be forsaken. He bore the judgment of sin that God's glory might be immutably established in righteousness. Thus grace in the freest way can and does now go out to every creature here below.

"But there is much more. Besides opening the sluices that divine love might flow out freely everywhere, we also find another line of truth altogether: the fullest and nicest care that those who are His children should be kept in peace and blessing. . . . God took care, not only to vindicate His own glory and nature, but to give them knowledge of salvation by the remission of their sins. The sins are all out to be borne away.

"Even the type demonstrates . . . that we require these two distinct truths to maintain the balance of God's truth.... They are admirably held together; they compose God's truth. It is quite true that in the first goat God has secured His majesty, and His righteous title to send forth His message of love to every creature. Again, in the second goat He has equally cared for the assurance of His people, that all their sins, transgressions, and iniquities, are completely borne away. How could the truth of atonement be more admirably shown by types beforehand?"

[end quoting; bold (in the body of the text) mine; brackets and underline mine]
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Right, so for some, Jesus' Ministry ... preaching to us about right and wrong and telling us How we are to LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR ... was not his greatest gift. His greatest gift was being crucified and tortured to death because that is what saves us.

Jesus did NOT live in vein. He changed the world with his preaching.
It seems that some people believe this: His dying to save ME from Hell was his main feat.


Subsitutionary Atonement is just one of many theories about why Jesus died.
https://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized
It's not a matter of saving the individual, and I'm well aware substituionary atonement is just one theory. Jesus' gift of Himself goes beyond the crucifixion to the Holy Spirit living in us so that we may be transformed.

Jesus' teaching and preaching while excellent is not what is changing the world, it is the confrontation with the cross that truly changes the individual. It is that moment that we lay down our rebellion and stop pursuing our evil desires and instead give Him control.

Personally, as far as atonement theories go, I hold to a Christus Victor model as the one that fits the Biblical data best.