Calvinism and Context?

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EleventhHour

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#362
#362
cv5 said:
Amen. Speaking in practical terms, if anybody is ACTUALLY going to be saved, it's going to have to be God that is doing it. The task of saving ourselves is far beyond our spiritual pay-grade.
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No one states we save ourselves, your misrepresentation demonstrates that your position lacks validity.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#363
#363
cv5 said:
Lol...No no that's not what I was intending to say actually. What I was intending to say was that election to salvation is not random, it is just the opposite. It was set forth in eternity past by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God.

I don't want to read anything into the text so help me out here.
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29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

This is not about salvation of lost people that God chooses willy nilly ...... it is about the GUARANTEED future of saved people.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#364
Nov 20, 2018
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#364
EleventhHour said:
God knowing the choices that Judas would make is not God MAKING those choices for Judas.

God is outside of time.
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That is not quite the question I was asking nor the point of asking it.

Since it is true that Jesus ONLY did the will of his Father, and since it is also true that the entire sum and total of the life of Jesus was quite literally scripted (and codified prophetically in scripture) according to the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, and since betrayal by Judas was a crucial part of this predetermined (from before the foundation of the world) purpose and plan, how could it possibly be that Judas could have availed himself, by any means, a fate, an outcome other than that which the scripture prophesies in advance?

As for me I just don't see a plan B for Judas.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#365
#365
cv5 said:
That is not quite the question I was asking nor the point of asking it.

Since it is true that Jesus ONLY did the will of his Father, and since it is also true that the entire sum and total of the life of Jesus was quite literally scripted (and codified prophetically in scripture) according to the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, and since betrayal by Judas was a crucial part of this predetermined (from before the foundation of the world) purpose and plan, how could it possibly be that Judas could have availed himself, by any means, a fate, an outcome other than that which the scripture prophesies in advance?

As for me I just don't see a plan B for Judas.
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Jesus learned obedience.

Again God's foreknowledge is not compunction... you do understand that God is outside of time.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#366
Nov 20, 2018
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#366
EleventhHour said:
No one states we save ourselves, your misrepresentation demonstrates that your position lacks validity.
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Please review my statement. Nowhere does it say anything about "saving ourselves".
 
Duskey

Duskey

Banned
#368
May 31, 2020
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#368
cv5 said:
Amen. Speaking in practical terms, if anybody is ACTUALLY going to be saved, it's going to have to be God that is doing it. The task of saving ourselves is far beyond our spiritual pay-grade.
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Who suggests anyone saves themselves besides our resident worker bees?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#369
#369
jackrosie said:
We don’t want to see what?....can you explain further please,thank you.
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Already explained it multiple times, you rejected Orthodox biblical understanding in favour of God Calvinism doctrine of election.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#370
#370
cv5 said:
I think we need more than a one-liner. Please expand on this theory for us you don't mind.
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Your presuppositions get in the way, that is what happens when you listen to Calvinist teachers.

However the true understanding is.....

....just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:4

When it states God chose us in Him, it literally means He chose US that are in HIM...........NOT that He chose to put us in Him as in regenerated by irresistible grace with no choice.

No one comes into the world already with faith, that is what your theory promotes, people born saved.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#371
Nov 20, 2018
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#371
EleventhHour said:
Jesus learned obedience.

Again God's foreknowledge is not compunction... you do understand that God is outside of time.
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You might argue that individual salvation is not due to election out in eternity past.

But there is absolutely no way anybody is ever going to argue that Jesus HIMSELF was not elect and foreordained by the determined plan and will of God from eternity past.

As for "learning obedience", that is debatable if not outright doubtful. Jesus has been obedient and perfectly obedient from eternity past. He was chosen for the task of redemption because He would be obedient in the future. He is the Holy God after all.

In my opinion, what Hebrews 5:8 is intended to say is that Jesus learned and experienced a yet greater aspect, dimension, perhaps form of obedience while in His pilgrimage here on planet earth. This is the very reason that Jesus' Name is now glorified even more greatly than it was before!
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#372
Nov 20, 2018
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#372
EleventhHour said:
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

This is not about salvation of lost people that God chooses willy nilly ...... it is about the GUARANTEED future of saved people.
Click to expand...
I am glad that you agree with me. God's chosen and elect are indeed guaranteed a future salvation.
 
Duskey

Duskey

Banned
#373
May 31, 2020
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#373
cv5 said:
The "system" of election certainly isn't my system. But it is boilerplate scriptural doctrine.
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The Great Commission in and of itself refutes calvinism in that there would be no need to evangelize to anyone, ever.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#377
#377
cv5 said:
You might argue that individual salvation is not due to election out in eternity past.

But there is absolutely no way anybody is ever going to argue that Jesus HIMSELF was not elect and foreordained by the determined plan and will of God from eternity past.

As for "learning obedience", that is debatable if not outright doubtful. Jesus has been obedient and perfectly obedient from eternity past. He was chosen for the task of redemption because He would be obedient in the future. He is the Holy God after all.

In my opinion, what Hebrews 5:8 is intended to say is that Jesus learned and experienced a yet greater aspect, dimension, perhaps form of obedience while in His pilgrimage here on planet earth. This is the very reason that Jesus' Name is now glorified even more greatly than it was before!
Click to expand...

...................though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

Hebrews 5:8
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#378
#378
Duskey said:
The Great Commission in and of itself refutes calvinism in that there would be no need to evangelize to anyone, ever.
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What is required under the circumstances is a change in word meanings, haven't you heard... world means "elect". :eek::rolleyes:

And even if the partial Calvinist does not go this far.... the false doctrine of Calvinist predestination means the Gospel is false hope to many in the world.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#379
Nov 20, 2018
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#379
Duskey said:
Who suggests anyone saves themselves besides our resident worker bees?
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Let's just say that the freewillers clearly stipulate (and refuse for any reason to abandon), that they, in and of themselves, by themselves, are self-endowed (not a gift of God not granted by God has nothing to do with God whatsoever) with sufficient faith and capacity to believe to accept the gospel when it is preached unto them.

This I do, not nor cannot agree to, as it it is not scripturally supported in my opinion.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#380
#380
cv5 said:
Let's just say that the freewillers clearly stipulate (and refuse for any reason to abandon), that they, in and of themselves, by themselves, are self-endowed (not a gift of God not granted by God has nothing to do with God whatsoever) with sufficient faith and capacity to believe to accept the gospel when it is preached unto them.

This I do, not nor cannot agree to, as it it is not scripturally supported in my opinion.
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And this is clearly refuted...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

No need to suppress truth if one cannot be affected by it and have the ability to believe it.
 
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